Why anneal the shoulder?

[tangolima]

I see the reason to anneal the neck. But why do I want to anneal the brass' shoulder? It contacts the chamber datum to counter the impact of the firing pin. Why do I want it to be soft?

It is not a rhetorical question. Now your turn. Thanks.

-TL

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[lordmorgul]

You cannot possibly anneal all of the neck without annealing a portion of the shoulder.


Andrew - Lancaster, CA
NRA Life Member, CRPA member, Calguns.net contributor, CGF / SAF / FPC / CCRKBA / GOA / NAGR / NRA-ILA contributor, USCCA member - Support your defenders!

[tangolima]

People anneal in a pan of water. The water depth is set to 1/8" below the shoulder junction. That means they purposely expose the shoulder to the flame. Or they could have raised the water level.

-TL

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[F. Guffey]

It contacts the chamber datum to counter the impact of the firing pin

My cases do not have head space and most of my case shoulders never make it to the shoulder of the chamber; even though I have killer firing pins.

Annealing: I sat down one day to put a list of rules together that covered annealing. And then? I made an annealing tool based on the few rules I found.

Reloading Forums have 'go to people' when it comes to specialties. They do not like competition so I avoid causing members to repeat after me or compete with the 'go to people'.

I form cases, when forming cases I anneal to a point below the shoulder in anticipation of where the new shoulder will be formed; it is a mind boggling thing but because my cases do not have head space my shoulder does not move when I size and or form. Somehow my old shoulder does not move and the shoulder I finish with is a new shoulder that was formed from the case body while! at the same time my old shoulder became part of the neck,

I have sizing dies that have case body support, it does not seem fair to other reloaders but I accepted the limitations. I can not move the shoulder back, I can not bump it back with a die that has case body support. That leaves a very hard sell, it the shoulder does not move back what does it do? If my shoulder moves forward I want I want the brass to be able to make the turn at the case body/shoulder juncture and at the shoulder/neck juncture.

But if you are able to move the shoulder back when sizing you are exempt, being exempt allow the reloader to continue bumping and annealing the shoulder has little to no value.

F. Guffey

[T. O'Heir]

Annealing doesn't make it soft. It makes it less brittle. Less brittle means the case won't crack as soon. The shoulders need annealing because they work harden just like the neck does.
"...water depth is set to 1/8" below..." It's not set. It's 'filled to just below the shoulder'. Does have to be exactly .125".
"...counter the impact of the firing pin..." There's nothing to counter. The FP hits the primer just hard enough to ignite the priming compound. And nothing else.
The datum point is just a name for the place on the chamber wall to gauge head space tolerance. It has nothing to do with countering anything.
Like F. Guffey says, cases do not have head space. Head space is a rifle manufacturing tolerance and nothing else.
The case expands in every direction to the chamber walls to seal the chamber and nothing else. All shoulders get to the side of the chamber. Chamber wouldn't be sealed if they didn't.

[tangolima]

Originally Posted by T. O'Heir

Annealing doesn't make it soft.

Then why should we avoid annealing the brass head?

Originally Posted by T. O'Heir

There's nothing to counter. The FP hits the primer just hard enough to ignite the priming compound. And nothing else.

Excessive headspace causes misfires, does it not?

Originally Posted by T. O'Heir

Like F. Guffey says, cases do not have head space.

I didn't say it does.

-TL

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[Marco Califo]

Excessive headspace causes misfires, does it not?

Have you actually experienced this? Or are you speaking theoretically?
If you are using standard dies, adjusted properly, to resize to SAAMI specs, you will not have excessive headspace. You may be able to reduce headspace by backing the die out slightly. I have never heard of misfires due to excessive headspace.
You anneal the shoulder because it will be worked when full-length resizing.
You do not anneal the case head because you do NOT work the case head.

[Bart B.]

I've won more than a few dollars betting cases are typically against the chamber headspace stop when their primer fires.

This is really simple physics most people should be able to figure out.

Even easier to learn case heads are not held against bolt faces when fired when case head clearance is greater than zero.

The FP hits the primer hard enough to ignite the priming compound then in some thousands more until peak pressure pushes the FP back a ways. And ends up deeper in a dud primer.

If case head clearance is excessive, primers won't be dented enough to fire. Most rifle primers need at least .020" deep dent to fire. Ask their maker what specs are.

[tangolima]

Originally Posted by Marco Califo

Have you actually experienced this? Or are you speaking theoretically?

Yes

Originally Posted by Marco Califo

You anneal the shoulder because it will be worked when full-length resizing.

You do not anneal the case head because you do NOT work the case head.

The brass body, especially the head, has been work hardened during the manufacturing process. It is never annealed because hardness is desired in those part. Annealing those parts are good for the shooter's health, so it should be avoided.

Work hardening of the shoulder due to full length resizing is a valid point.

-TL

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[Unclenick]

Shoulders occasionally split, too. They get work-hardened by being expanded under pressure and extruded by the sizing die. It's less frequent than neck splits, but the causes are the same: Work-hardening brass decreases its breaking point elongation until its ability to stretch without breaking is so small that even the small stretch needed to expand to fill a chamber is too much for it.

What most shooters call "annealing" is really just stress relieving, aka partial annealing in the copper alloy industry lingo. True annealing uses a higher combination of time and temperature to make brass very soft and that weakens it by growing its grain size.

[tangolima]

I agree, unclenick. I recalled seeing one or two split shoulders all these years. When I anneal, I mostly focus on the neck. Unavoidably I have to include at least part of the shoulder as I don't do it in a pan of water. Thanks.

-TL

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[Marco Califo]

The brass body, especially the head, has been work hardened during the manufacturing process. It is never annealed because hardness is desired in those part. Annealing those parts are good for the shooter's health, so it should be avoided.

Quoting my self:

You do not anneal the case head because you do NOT work the case head.

No mention of previous manufacturing steps. Reloaders never do those steps, and we are in a Reloading forum.
TL, YOU asked "why you dont?" The answer is clear that there is no reason to try to, and no one suggested you should. You are the only person I have ever heard explain why something that is not done could have bad consequences. BTW, you omitted a word that changes meaning of your post. Are you collating a list of stupid things not to do?

Annealing those parts are good for the shooter's health, so it should be avoided.

Exactly HOW is that good for a shooters health?

[Unclenick]

If you take a look at Atlas Development Group's description of their brass, they advertise that they double-strike the heads to get them extra hard for longer reloading life. I also recall Hatcher mentioning he had to get case heads struck extra deeply before he got a case that would withstand a load capable of destroying a Garand receiver. Other attempts to achieve destructive over-pressure had resulted in so much head brass flow that the cases always blew out before he could damage a receiver.

[tangolima]

Marco. I meant to say annealing the head is NOT safe so should be avoided. It is not because the head hasn't been work hardened, as it has indeed been work hardened by the manufacturer already. Apology for the typo.

I don't want to anneal shoulder myself. But everyone seems to be doing without thinking it. That's why I asked. It is a real question, not a rhetoric to make a statement. I thank you for your input.

-TL

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[F. Guffey]

I didn't say it does.

It has become fashionable to use the term; it reminds me of the act of mowing the grass is a way of earning neighborhood acceptance.

F. Guffey

[F. Guffey]

I've won more than a few dollars betting cases are typically against the chamber headspace stop when their primer fires.

You won? If that happened you were dealing with a shooter/reloader/? that had no clue where the case was when the trigger was pulled. And then there is that thing about cases getting longer and or shorter when fired. I want my cases to get shorter from the mouth of the case to the case head and longer from the shoulder of the case to the case head. After that we have to get past that part about the neck getting thicker and or thinner when fired. It is a mind boggling thing but my case necks get shorter when fired and longer when sized.

Again, a friend built a few magnificent rifles with wildcat chambers, he made the chamber reamer etc. And then he went to the firing range, he had 5 case head separations our of the first 10 rounds fired. Where was the case? I informed him firing a case with the shoulder of the case against the shoulder of the chamber was a bad habit. I told him it was possible to determine where the case was when fired, and I informed him he could have determined the amount of clearance before he pulled the trigger.

He thought it was about something I could get away with and he couldn't. He could not understand how I fired cases with shoulders so far from the shoulder of the chamber the shoulder of the case could not see the shoulder of the chamber. Again, I have fired rounds that were declared 'risky stuff' because in one situation the shoulder of the case was .127" from the shoulder of the chamber. In another the case neck shortened to .217". He could not understand if the case shoulder was against the shoulder of the chamber the neck would not have shortened. And the rest of the story goes something like 'that is the reason firing ammo with the case shoulder against the chamber shoulder is a bad habit'.

F. Guffey

[Bart B.]

Yes I won. Used cases and chambers within SAAMI specs. A realistic test. What 99.999...% of all instances will involve.

Of course, if chamber headspace is long enough to allow a case rim to stop against the extractor claw in .001...% of the time as your example is based on, then the primer can fire with several thousandths case shoulder clearance to the chamber shoulder.

This ain't rocket science. And stop putting your thumb on the scale to tip its needle in your favor.

[RC20]

I don't want to anneal shoulder myself. But everyone seems to be doing without thinking it. That's why I asked. It is a real question, not a rhetoric to make a statement. I thank you for your input.

Basically the case has characteristic that are important. The head being the most important as is a gas release issue.

The neck is no safety related but it is longevity related (and may some consistency of hold)

Where does the brass change form one to another?

And how much heat overshoot into the wrong region (head) can you get?

The shoulder is the same as the neck anneal wise and you want to get the neck for sure.

How much nit noid effort are you going to put into it to deal with just the neck (impossible, you have to get to the intersections of the shoulder which means you will affect a portion of the shoulder) vs no gain?

My take is its just an effort to do a me too about I have discovered America and get an argument gong that it was not the Vikings (actually former Asians and now Native Americans decedents found it first obviously).

Sorry I gave away my Beat Your head against this sign when I quit work.

[F. Guffey]

This ain't rocket science. And stop putting your thumb on the scale to tip its needle in your favor.

I do not make this stuff up; when my killer firing pins hit the primer the bullet, case and powder (total weight) is setting still.

F. Guffey

[Bart B.]

Originally Posted by F. Guffey

I do not make this stuff up; when my killer firing pins hit the primer the bullet, case and powder (total weight) is setting still.

F. Guffey

So does mine as well as others in controlled feed actions.

Then the case is driven forward to its chamber headspace limit and then the primer gets dented a couple dozen thousandths and then fires.

[F. Guffey]

So does mine as well as others in controlled feed actions.

Then the case is driven forward to its chamber headspace limit and then the primer gets dented a couple dozen thousandths and then fires.
Bart B. is offline Report Post

So does mine

Long before I got into this silly conversation I chambered a round into a chamber that did not have a shoulder; I know that only worked for me because I am the one that measures the length of the chamber from the shoulder to the bolt face with a gage that measures the length of the chamber from a short chamber to a chamber that that has an infinite length.

Again, before I got into this silly conversation I chambered a round into a chamber with .127" clearance between the shoulder of the round and the shoulder of the chamber. I pulled the trigger, the shoulder of the case did not move.

And then I purchased a military type rifle with a 30/06 chamber that was .016" longer than a minimum length/full length sized case. I chambered a round and then pulled the trigger. Part of the case got longer and part of the case got shortened. Because I measured before and again after I knew the shoulder of the case never made it to the shoulder of the chamber.

And then? I formed my cases for that rifle from 280 Remington cases, I formed the cases to obtain that magic .002" clearance.

F. Guffey

[reynolds357]

As much as I hate to somewhat agree with Guffey and hate to disagree with Bart, I must do just that. My years of fire forming brass for wildcats has taught me that all but the worst extractors will hold a case good enough to ignite the primer. Getting a Rem700 type extractor to grab it in the first place can be fun.
Of course in a properly headspace rifle, the shoulder will contact the chamber long before extractor hold occurs.

[Bart B.]

Originally Posted by reynolds357

As much as I hate to somewhat agree with Guffey and hate to disagree with Bart, I must do just that. My years of fire forming brass for wildcats has taught me that all but the worst extractors will hold a case good enough to ignite the primer. Getting a Rem700 type extractor to grab it in the first place can be fun.
Of course in a properly headspace rifle, the shoulder will contact the chamber long before extractor hold occurs.

If there's enough excessive head clearance for a given rimless bottleneck cartridge, it will usually fire with its rim hard against the extractor claw. I've seen that happen shooting 308 Win ammo in 30-06 chambers.

Won't usually happen when extractor fit, cartridge and chamber dimensions are within specs. One exception was Holland & Holland's first rimless version of a rimmed cartridge with an 8 degree shoulder where firing pins drove the cartridge rim against the extractor claw.

[F. Guffey]

I've seen that happen shooting 308 Win ammo in 30-06 chambers.

No you have not, it has been explained to you over and over etc.; problem, you lack mechanical skills.

The 308W when fired in the 30/06 chamber head spaces on the case body shoulder juncture of the 308W case because the case is larger by .014"+ than the chamber at the point of conduct.

And then there are all of those threads that you choose to ignore like the one that involved the smith from Denver. He thought it would be a great ideal to ream a 308 W chamber to 30/06. When finished he could not figure out why his fired 30/06 cases were ejected with a ring around the case body. I did my best to get him to understand the 30/06 reamer will not clean up the 308W chamber.

I offered to loan him a 30/06 Ackley improved chamber reamer or a 30 Gibbs, after that he was quite happy with the 'ring around the case' problem.

F. Guffey