A .357 that acts like a .45 acp?

[HighValleyRanch]

With the current thread on the sound impacts of using a .357 in a SD situation,
I have always wondered why a .357 could not be loaded with 180 or 200 grain bullets and charged to lower velocities like a .45 acp?

Of course the bullet diameter is going to be smaller, but since energy equals mass time velocity, shouldn't one be able get them somewhat close?

I believe there was a couple of loads (Leigh?) that were striving to do this.

Isn't the high sound from the velocity of the .357 pushing a lighter bullet at high speed to achieve higher foot pounds energy.

Isn't the pleasant push of the .45 acp from the heavier bullet traveling at a slower speed.

I love my .357's but wish they were more like .45's.
Not possible?

180 grain .357 and 185 grain .45. Can't they be almost the same?

[robinsroost]

I own both and have carried both on duty. During my 36 years as LEO, I have seen lots of gun shot wounds. Shot placement is the most important factor in stopping an aggressor. That being said, the bigger the hole, the quicker they bleed out. Most people shot with a .45 do not survive.......Robin

[Jim Watson]

I loaded some 200 gr @ 875+ fps .357s as Major power factor ammo for IPSC.
It was SLIGHTLY softer shooting than 158 @ 1108 and a LOT easier to manage than 125 @ 1400 fps.

Now, what happens when you push the heavy bullets up to full Magnum Power, I cannot say.

My personal recoil tolerance is about .38 +P+, .38-44, or .357 "tactical".

[HighValleyRanch]

Thanks,
robinsroost and everyone else.
This is NOT a .357 vs. .45 acp thread.
It's a why can' you load a 200 grain .357 to the same velocities as a .45 and come out with the same energy factor.

Thanks Jim, I'm not trying to achieve magnum velocities, but the opposite.
Keep the velocity sub sonic and keep the final energy output high with the more mass? But what you loaded was exactly what I was talking about.
Wondering why more people don't do this?

Just wondering why no manufacturer has ever pushed this idea.
It would be great for people with the .357 platform but don't want to use .357 for SD as per the hearing thread.

And of course, to keep it on topic, this is not...
"why don't you just carry a .45 instead?"

[Jim Watson]

Wondering why more people don't do this?

Possibly because, as I said, the difference in felt recoil and controllability from specialty 200 gr down to common 158 grain was slight. Very slight. I could tell the difference in slow fire paying a lot of attention to the gun. In rapid fire on multiple targets, it was not noticeable in feel or affect on scores.

The highly touted 125 gr high velocity antipersonnel load was obnoxious to fire and harder to hang on to under all conditions.

[James K]

A low velocity .38 caliber 200 grain bullet to emulate a .45 caliber low velocity bullet? Ridiculous.

But why would we need weapons when we just fought the war to end war? Besides, here in England we have the perfect revolver round in the .455 and no need for that silly American "man stopper" idea!

Jim

[Laz]

One problem might be suggested by why slower 180 grain .357s make such good hunting rounds. Sectional Density. The SD of a 180 grain .357 is considerably more than even a 185 grain .45 acp +P at similar velocity. Hence, deep penetration. Probably too much for defense.

[HighValleyRanch]

Maybe, but bullet designers could easily design bullets that expand to prevent over penetration.

I started to remember some things that I read before while researching this project. The heavy tubular design of a .38 bullet caused it to tumble at too slow a speed.

Again, maybe ingenious bullet design could prevent this or examining the twist which would best stabilize the longer heavier bullet.

Not sure if this tumbling would occur at short distances, though.

[cslinger]

Is t that called a .38 special.

[SIGSHR]

The British tried that with their original 380/200 round based on the 38 S&W, later they had to adopt the 173gr cupronickel bullet to comply with the Hague Convention. There used to be a 200 gr 38 "Super Police" round.

[HighValleyRanch]

cslinger
I think a 180 grain or 200 grain bullet in a .38 special case is pushing the limits?
Not talking about 158 grains at 800 fps.

There used to be a 200 gr 38 "Super Police" round.

Why didn't that become popular?

Aah, with the help of the last post and google, I found the article I read in the past on this subject:
https://www.usconcealedcarry.com/reb...ice-cartridge/

Wonder what that's going to feel like in my Ruger LCRx?

Wow, I found this article by a guy that's already gone the step of experimentation. This makes very interesting reading on the subject.
.45 acp out my LCR! Cool!
Only problem is that I don't want to use reloads for SD.
I want factory loads. But this article shows that it is entirely possible.
http://forums.gunsandammo.com/showth...200-grain-38-s

[44 AMP]

This is my idea of a .357 that acts like a .45acp.

[HighValleyRanch]

Whaaaat!
You posted a semi auto in the revolver forum!
Blasphemy!!!!!

How about a Colt 1911 in .38 super, or of course my favorites pistol,
the Smith model 52 shooting .38 special wadcutters.
That is one sweet shooting pistol!

But back to re-inventing the wheel...........gun!

[natman]

Of course the bullet diameter is going to be smaller, but since energy equals mass time velocity, shouldn't one be able get them somewhat close?

As long as the velocity and the bullet weight is the same the energy will be equal.

This is one of the pitfalls of using energy as a measure, because a 200 grain 45 bullet will behave differently than a 200 grain 357. Frontal area counts for something and energy ignores it.

Isn't the high sound from the velocity of the .357 pushing a lighter bullet at high speed to achieve higher foot pounds energy.

If by "high sound" you mean loud, it's caused by the slow burning powders used to generate 357 velocities.

Isn't the pleasant push of the .45 acp from the heavier bullet traveling at a slower speed.

Yes.

The 357 with 125 grain bullets and the 45 with 230 grain bullets are both very effective cartridges, but they get the job done in different ways.

Trying to get the 357 to be a 45 may leave you with the good qualities of neither cartridge. If you want a 45 revolver, get a Model 25.

[Joshua 2415]

I want exactly what HighValleyRanch is looking for.

I have two S&W 8-round 627 revolvers (2 5/8" and 4"). I carry them quite a bit, but I'd carry them more if I wasn't concerned about the loud report.

From my revolvers, I wish there was something close to 357 magnum effectiveness, with 45 acp decibels.

Yes, we could get a 45 acp revolver, but those are only 6 rounds. I don't want to give up my 8 rounds. Also, I want to keep the 38/357 platform, for the versatility it provides.

HighValleyRanch, when you find this holy grail of revolver ammo, please let us know!!

[Joshua 2415]

(Double Post, deleted)

[Hammerhead]

It takes more pressure to get a .357" 200 grain bullet moving to 800 fps than it does for a .452" 200 grain bullet, so noise is still going to be greater in the smaller caliber even with the same powder.

I have tinnitus in both ears, that's why I shoot .45 auto as my primary caliber.

[HighValleyRanch]

Thanks Hammerhead.
And can you explain why that is?
Wouldn't a .357 case have close to the same VOLUME of space as a .45 acp?
Tall and narrow for the .357 vs. short and fat for the .45.
I filled a .357 case with water and poured it into the .45 and they are pretty close in volume?

[Doyle]

All this reminds me of a member on this forum (can't recall who) who swore he had a .45 that was shooting to near .357 mag velocity.

[DPris]

If you want to change a .357 into something else, why don't you just buy something else in the first place?

Little point in loading a .357 down to .45 ACP energy or velocity levels.
Denis

[HighValleyRanch]

If you want to change a .357 into something else, why don't you just buy something else in the first place?

Could be because I already own some .357/.38 specials and I like their size and models.

What would you suggest I buy?
The size of a j or K frame that shoots .45 acp?
That is a revolver?

Probably the closest would be something like the Smith 69 in .44 special five shot L frame, but that still is on the large size.
If I do that, I would rather go with the eight shot 627 like Joshua and change the .357 to .45 acp!LOL

And also, some people just like to be innovative, and not buy stuff.

Beside which, it's not changing the .38 into something else.
It's been around a while, just trying to find out more.
Found loading data in my 1967 Lyman reloading manual for loads for 195 grain cast. Max of 9.5 grains yields 893 Fps, bullet #358430.
Just looking for some factory stuff like this.

[DPris]

The .357 Mag made its name based on it being a .357 Mag.
If you don't want a .357 Mag, get something else.

If you want to load one down, your choice, but you might as well just shoot .38s.
Denis

[Hammerhead]

Thanks Hammerhead.
And can you explain why that is?

Less pressure is needed with .45 because of the larger surface area under the bullet, like a large diameter pneumatic piston needs less pressure than a smaller one to do the same work.

[Hammerhead]

The .357 Mag made its name based on it being a .357 Mag.
If you don't want a .357 Mag, get something else.

If you want to load one down, your choice, but you might as well just shoot .38s.

Never understood that. Nothing wrong with downloading to .38 levels in .357 brass. I've been doing it for 20 years. Started with a lever gun that didn't feed .38 as well as .357, and I still do it in my F/A .357 because I don't like the carbon ring in tight chambers, plus no fiddling with dies back and forth.

[Hammerhead]

Not to mention that reducing the jump from the brass to the forcing cone is usually helpful for accuracy.