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Old August 24, 2013, 01:49 AM   #1
Metal god
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Just started reloading today . Question about compressed loads .

Hello I'm new to this sub forum but I'm sure you all will get to know me soon enough I'm loading for a 308 Savage FCP-K and it has a very short throat .The published COAL on most of my bullets is to long and when I seat them at that length the bullet jams in to the rifling and my bolt gets stuck . OK easy fix I just seat them a little deeper right ?

OK here is where I get a little concerned . I was loading 190gr smk with IMR-4350 . I could tell right away when I put the smallest starting load in the case that the bullet would be touching the powder . Now that was at 40.7gr and I new I was never going to get to the max load of 47.8gr . I did get a load of 46gr and got the bullet to seat deep enough to chamber in my rifle . The bullet is right up against the lands though , not pressed in but touching . Will I get to much pressure with that compressed load and the bullet sitting up against the lands/rifling ? I have the same issue with the 178gr A-MAX's and the same powder . The longest I can have the 178gr A-MAX loaded 2.7650 before it starts sticking in the rifling . Same problem with the 175gr smk max length 2.750 . All those measurements are just touching but not stuck in the lands/rifling .

I loaded 4 different powders today .
IMR-4350
Power Pro 2000MR
Viht-N540
Viht-N550
The only powder I had compressed loads with was the IMR-4350 . I don't remember which one but one of the others was close to compressed but more like the bullet was just touching the powder .

When I first learned of the short throat my rifle had I was glad . I was thinking the barrel will last longer cus I have more throat to burn out . Now I'm thinking it sucks cus I have to seat my bullets so deep .

Anything you guys have to say about this issue is welcome . Like I said , today was my first day ever reloading and I'm not really sure if I have problems or just dilemmas . Am I in the danger zone . Is that short throat to short ? should I contact Savage or do I just not use powders that don't fit ?

Any help or insight would be greatly appreciated .

Thanks Metal
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Old August 24, 2013, 02:02 AM   #2
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Metal god
The bullet is right up against the lands though , not pressed in but touching . Will I get to much pressure with that compressed load and the bullet sitting up against the lands/rifling ?
Pressure will rise with the increase in powder charge and the closer the bullet is to the lands, Not from compression.

So, yes, you may have a "high" pressure situation with the 46gr load due to it's distance from the lands, not the fact that the powder is compressed.

You can reduce the amount of compression by charging the case with a long drop tube. It allowed the powder granules to settle into the case better.
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Old August 24, 2013, 02:57 AM   #3
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Just started reloading today . Question about compressed loads .

Also, the pressure rises slightly from less case capacity as the bullet us seated deeper. Not as significant as the bullet being nearly touching the lands, though.

It seems 4350 is too slow and bulky of a powder for your situation. You might consider a similar ball powder. I think H414 may be close to same burn rate but a ball powder.

I would stay away from compromises to try to get the wrong powder to fit. Or settle for lighter powder loads with that one.
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Old August 24, 2013, 11:28 AM   #4
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Quote:
You can reduce the amount of compression by charging the case with a long drop tube.
Quote:
It seems 4350 is too slow and bulky of a powder for your situation. You might consider a similar ball powder. I think H414 may be close to same burn rate but a ball powder.
I'll look in to the long drop lube but my goal and plan is to use IMR-4064 , Varget , IMR-4895 . The only reason I used the powders I did was they were in stock and in the load data . I have had IMR 4064 on backorder along with CFE-223 for 6 months now and just got tiered of waiting to reload . I've been wanting to shoot but refused to pay for factory ammo at what the prices have been .
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Old August 24, 2013, 03:02 PM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by steve4102
You can reduce the amount of compression by charging the case with a long drop tube. It allowed the powder granules to settle into the case better.
As a trial to see if settling the granules will make a significant difference to the powder level in the case, you could try gently shaking the charged case (or tapping the side of the case against your workbench or tapping the tapping the side of the case with a pencil). Cheaper than buying a longer drop tube, I think.

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Old August 24, 2013, 03:25 PM   #6
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Do factory loads run into the lands?
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Old August 24, 2013, 04:06 PM   #7
Metal god
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Tapping the case to get the powder to settle is something I did and it does give you a little more room . To give you an idea of how much powder is in that 46gr IMR-4350 load . The case was filled to the bottom of the neck . Now think about how far a normal 190gr smk would need to be seated and I needed to seat it just a little deeper . The bullet IMO is seated as far as it will go . I heard the crunch of the powder and there is still pressure on my press handle after it is all the way down .

Quote:
Do factory loads run into the lands?
I would say yes but with a caveat , It depends on the rifle and barrel . I believe do to my short throat I have felt a factory bullet press in to the lands before . There has been a couple times that the bolt was stiffer to close . I would not say it was hard to close or that I needed to force it . It just felt like a tighter fit then others .

I have heard but not confirmed that you will not have that kind of problem on a Rem 700 . I here they have a long throat . If you were to load the same bullets for a 700 you could get away with a OAL of 2.9 +
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Old August 24, 2013, 04:19 PM   #8
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I meant - do factory loads run into the lands on your rifle?
I know it never happens on any of my rifles.

If I had a rifle with such a short throat that factory ammo hit the lands, I would want to know it.
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Old August 24, 2013, 05:56 PM   #9
Metal god
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If I had a rifle with such a short throat that factory ammo hit the lands, I would want to know it.
It's interesting you say that , I would too . Here is the interesting part . Because of all the panic buying and I not being able to load do to the fact I could not get powder . I've been doing a bunch of reading and research on reloading . I've also been messing around with sizing brass seating bullets checking if they fit in my rifles etc . If I would have been able to reload right away . I think I would have been really confused and not understanding why I can't get any of my new reloads to chamber in my rifle . I would have done them to spec of what my books says they should be trimmed , seated and the COAL should be . If I had done that none of them would have worked . So in kind of a space-time-continuum thing . It's been a good thing I had to wait to reload .

On a side note my 308 Ruger American does not seem to have the same issue's as my Savage . I can load all the rounds above to the recommended 2.800 and they chamber just fine .
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Last edited by Metal god; August 24, 2013 at 08:18 PM.
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Old August 24, 2013, 07:49 PM   #10
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I've had to go so far as to cover the case mouth and hold the case against the body of a running "engraving pencil". The vibration settled the powder significantly even compared using a drop tube and dribbling the charge into the funnel. This is time consuming but for a few dozen hunting loads, it's OK.
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Old August 25, 2013, 02:58 PM   #11
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Mobuck, you don't go far enough with the efficiency process.

Charge a batch of brass with propellant and put them all in a case-holder-block.

Set the block on a tabletop shared with a vibratory case cleaner. The tabletop should not be TOO stable. Use a folding card table if necessary.

Turn on the case cleaner.

Wash up, have lunch.

When you come back to finish loading, the whole batch of cases should have the powder nicely settled, don't you think?


Thanks for letting me build on your post.

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Old August 25, 2013, 05:11 PM   #12
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Are you loading for hunting or target shooting. RL 15, Varget , IMR 4064 are a good choice for your 308. IMR 4350 is a little slow for a 308. 40.7 - 46.0 range & compressed 47.7 depending on what brass your using,46.0 could be compressed due to brass being thicker. Your reloading so a short throat is a good thing, check your case length use a compariter to measure seating your bullet to your ojive. start with 41.0 gr of 4350 & increase .5 gr. every 5 or 10 rounds to see how they group, till you hit the sweet spot & your groups get tight. Only change one thing at a time. First powder charges till you group tight, than OAL with your best powder charge to see if you can get even tighter. When changing powders, lets say you fire 20 rounds of IMR to a different brand, clean your barrel good. Different fouling will be a bummer on your groups. Find out what your rifle likes, it could be a jump or touching the lands, Mid powder range for accuracy most of the time. It realy depends on what your rifle likes.Loaded ammo in 308 are 2.800 So it will feed from all magazines. I have a Rem 700 with a throat (Free Bore)so long it would come out of the neck before it hits the lands. I was lucky my rifle shoots 3/4 groups at 200 yards. Stay away from hot loads at first, it's safer and your brass will last longer. Hope I helped. Be Safe Chris
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Old August 25, 2013, 08:54 PM   #13
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I don't think you'll get enough IMR4350 in your cases to shoot 190's fast enough to stabilize decently. The load for 190's in competition that shot so well was 42 grains IMR4064. But only in thin Western Cartridge cases weighing 150 to 156 grains. IMR4350 only worked well with 200 grain bullets; 48 grains of it. And with a bit longer than normal throat.

Crushed powder charges have never produced consistantly low muzzle velocity spreads. But they often produce high muzzle velocity numbers.
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Old August 25, 2013, 10:25 PM   #14
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hmm I didn't think about the case and how much powder would fit . I'm using WCC 06 cases they all weigh between 176gr and 177gr . I got to say that I like this once fired brass though . I have some Federal brass from a bunch of GMM I used last year . I should size and trim some of those up and see how they load .

This short throat thing is starting to bother me . I have my cases trimmed to 2.0045 and still have a hard time seating my 178gr A-MAXs deep enough to stay off the lands or not get stuck . The die and the seating adjustment are as low as I can get them with out starting to crimp the case . That is seating the bullet to a AOL of 2.755 and thats right up against the lands with the 178gr A-MAX . The only way to seat them deeper is to trim the case more .

How short should or can I cut a 308 case too . I don't really want compressed loads but I would like to start these new never been fired through my rifle loads , off the lands a bit or does it matter seeing how I'm starting at the smaller loads and working my way up. The pressure should not be an issue till I get to the heavier loads and I will see signs of to much pressure before I get there .

EDIT : just deleted a bunch a stuff that made me look stupid . Most of it was about how i moved up in increments of 1.5gr of powder per batch of reloads . It looks like I should have been going up .5gr and at most 1gr at a time . Looks like I need to pull the heavy ones and reload them to a weight that's in between the others . On a few batch's I just reloaded 5rds of each load in the book . Can I just load all the loads in the book starting at the low end ? Most of those seem to move up in bigger increments then 1gr .
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Last edited by Metal god; August 26, 2013 at 01:10 AM.
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Old August 26, 2013, 07:02 PM   #15
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Metal god, what dies are you using. But first lets start from step 1 your reloader shaft is at the top stroke. screw the sizing die down till it hits the shell holder, screw the die down 1/8 of a turn to remove any slack from the die & lock in position. Now you lube the case and size. check case length, trim to lets say 2.005 cutting your case any shorter does not help in OAL. now when using your seating die, seat & measure until you get to your wanted OAL. I can't see how your having a problem with seating away from the lands, also I left out case prep to keep it short. If you use a empty formed case no primer can you seat the bullet to your OAL. Chris
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Old August 26, 2013, 10:40 PM   #16
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I'm using Redding die set . The instructions for seating your bullet with out crimp says
Quote:
with the ram in it's upper most position , screw the bullet seating die into your press until it touches the shell holder . If no crimp is desired, back the seating die one turn away from the shell holder . Tighten the die body lock ring and adjust bullet seating depth with seat plug
OK when I do that and I have the seat plug screwed down all the way till it's tight it does not seat the 178gr A-MAX bullets deep enough for my short throat . To get the die to seat them deep enough but just barely . I have to put the ram ( with a empty case in the shell holder ) in it's upper most position . Now I screw the die down till it makes contact with the case , then back it off just a tad so it will not crimp the case when I seat the bullet .

Now with the die adjusted the way I just explained and the seat plug screwed all the way down till it's tight I can get the 178gr A-MAXs to seat deep enough to chamber and extract with ease .

If I do it the way the Redding quote says the bolt gets stuck a little and I can see the marks on the bullet where it made contact with the inside of the barrel .

( hope that makes more sense why if the neck was shorter I'd be able to screw the die down a little more and that would seat the bullet a little deeper . The problem as I see it is if I screw the die down any more it will crimp the case . If the case was shorter I can screw the die down more with out it crimping the cases when I seat the bullet . )

CASE PREP on once fired brass

1) do a 1hr clean in a corncob tumbler
2) decap and clean primer pocket
3) clean 4 or 5 hours in corncob tumbler
4) resize and trim
5) clean with polish 1 to 2 hours in tumbler
6) load cases
.
The empty sized and trimmed cases chamber in the rifle like butter . no issues whats so ever . Not sure if that matters to this thread but I thought I'd throw that out there .
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Old August 26, 2013, 11:08 PM   #17
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First image heavy compressed 47gr load with a AOL of 2.775 . Look at the marks on the Ojive area where it contacts the rifling
.


This pic is of the A-MAX seated to a AOL of 2.760 with no marks on the bullet at all . The deepest I can get them to seat is about a AOL of 2.7595
.
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Old August 27, 2013, 07:28 AM   #18
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Sounds like your chamber is short. That isn't a big problem if you hand load but it might cause some inconvenience if your factory ammo is too long for the chamber.

I have measured the chambers in 5 model 10 Savages - 3 FCP-Ks and 1 older FP and one FCP.

The old FP had a really long chamber and I could load out to 2.890 COAL with Sierra 168 SMKs and still be 0.02 off the rifling.
The FCP had a chamber that was slightly shorter but was still well into the 2.870 COAL range.

The 10 FCP-Ks are another matter.
One has a chamber that will accept a 2.815 COAL for a 168 SMK.
One will accept a 2.813 COAL for a 168 SMK
However, one has a very short chamber that will only accept a 2.745 COAL for a 168 SMK.
The one with the short chamber has to have its factory ammo reseated deeper so that it will clear the rifling.
However, that particular rifle averages 0.421 for 25 different hand loads. It also averages 0.523 for 4 different factory loads (most of which had to be seated deeper in order to clear the rifling).

Having to seat hand load depths for your particular chamber doesn't mean that the rifle won't be accurate.
However, with a chamber that is really short, you need to be a careful when loading close to the max loads because the deeper seating may cause compression of the max loads with some powder/bullet combinations.

As for powders, I agree that IMR 4350 is a bit slow for a .308 although in these times just getting any powder that will shoot in your caliber at all seems to be good enough.

I have tried Varget, Reloader 15, H4895, and N140.
I have had my best results with H4895 and N140 depending on the bullet weights.
N140 did best in the FP and 2 of the 3 FCP-Ks.
I have no data on the 3rd FCP-K.
The FCP preferred H4895.

Last edited by Rimfire5; August 27, 2013 at 07:36 AM.
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Old August 27, 2013, 08:25 AM   #19
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I see what your faced with. thats why I asked what die. never used a Redding sizing die. I'm using RCBS neck die, does not have that crimp feature. Seems like your doing everything right, except I wouldn't start off on the hot side, it's better to start off low & work up your loads. Did you call Redding. Don't worry about a short chamber,most custom barrels are like that, wish I had your problem.If it were a neck die or full size with out crimp the vein on your neck wouldn't be sticking out. Call Redding see what they say. Chris

Last edited by cw308; August 27, 2013 at 12:40 PM.
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Old August 28, 2013, 10:25 PM   #20
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Just ordered this for a few different reasons .
http://www.midwayusa.com/product/760...r-short-magnum

1) I will be loading for a few different 308 rifles with multiple bullets for each . This should make it easy to keep track of what depth each load was best and I'll be able to dial right to it .

2) I see a few guys say they can seat bullets deeper with this bullet seater then the normal Redding bullet seating die .

In theory it will be a win win .
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Old August 30, 2013, 07:59 AM   #21
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I use the same seating die , you'll love it. Enjoy reloading it's a great sport. Be safe & double check everything. Chris
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Old August 30, 2013, 08:09 AM   #22
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While maybe not what you want, but just use a 165 grain bullet and stop worrying about the bullet being too long or the load compressed.

Jim
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Old August 30, 2013, 09:02 PM   #23
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Had a good day at the range today . I took a lot of notes and need to go back and take a look at all that was going on . I'll update in more detail after. In short my compressed loads had no issues and in fact the more they were compressed and the farther the bullet was jammed in the rifling the better the rounds did as far as grouping . No real pressure signs .
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Old August 30, 2013, 09:22 PM   #24
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i have a savage 10fp tac, rifle. it has a little shorter throat, but i can load 175gr serria matchking 2.785 oal.. i use r-15 41gr. you need to work up,yourself . i can get 5 bullets in a 7/16 hole ,on a good day 100 yds.

my gun also shoots good at 2.775-2.785, much further out, it dosen't shoot as well
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Old August 30, 2013, 11:57 PM   #25
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Just started reloading today . Question about compressed loads .

Don't you want the bullet as close or touching the rifling? In my reading most competitive shooters do so.
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