Fail To Feed -- WHY?????

Sigma 40 Blaster · January 13, 2008, 05:29 AM

I have been hit with a serious FTF bug with my last batch of .40 S&W.

I'm using 180 grain TCNF bullets, 5.4 grains of Unique with a COAL of 1.130. This is a new bullet type for me, the angles on the tip of this bullet are very hard...more like a SWC .

I'm looking at the misfeeds and you can see on one side of the bullet where the tip is hitting the chamber and sticking (clean chamber, no reason something should stick). So is the solution for this problem to load them a little shorter OR just avoid bullets with this type of profile in the future?

I am using a Lee FCD with enough of a taper crimp that I am knocking the case mouth back to it's original size (calipers pass smoothly over the case mouth, maybe .001 bigger) , I don't want to overcrimp these suckers as I'm pretty close to max load.

BTW, I'm shooting a PX4 storm. I have never had any real feeding problems except with SWC's that were accidentally loaded too short (due to lead buildup in seating/crimping die) or cases that were not crimped enough.

To prevent problems like this do most of you load with the min COAL or do you just have to play with the dimensions of the round to match them to your gun?

UGH · January 13, 2008, 06:55 AM

I would adjust the COL to 1.125 and see if that helps. I would also start at a reduced load and work from there as shortening the COL can increase pressures. I use 6 grains of Power Pistol with a 180 grain FMJ. If you get a chance you should give Power Pistol a try for the .40. I generally go in the middle when I try a new load and that seems to work out ok. But then I shoot a Sig P229. No feeding issues with that.

ShootingNut · January 13, 2008, 09:09 AM

Hi,
My son has a PX40 as you, and he also had feeding problems with that very OAL. So, we load up the 180 gr. TCFP to 1.118" OAL, and the 155 gr. at 1.110" to 1.115" SWC , now he has no feeding problems at all. I have a MP40 which eats both lenths, even the 1.130" with no problem. The PX is a little bit more finicky, but a great gun.
Not that it matters, but we use Accurate #5, with 5.8 grains with 180's,
and 7.0 grains with the 155's. Works great for us, and loves to eat that red spot right out of the targets.
Give this a try and you should be good.
SN

Alleykat · January 13, 2008, 09:12 AM

Your trepidation regarding crimping more firmly is ill-founded. You'll adversely affect the pressure a lot more by reducing the o.a.l. than by crimping tighter.

**Mal H** · January 13, 2008, 10:31 AM

Quote:

So is the solution for this problem to load them a little shorter OR just avoid bullets with this type of profile in the future?

No, you don't want to do the latter. The truncated cone profile is very common in .40 caliber cartridges. If you avoid them, you will eliminate several choices of bullets.

Your first option is correct in IMX. 1.130 is a little long according to my available data for a 180 gr TC. Be sure to follow the cautions about working up a load when the OAL is changed.

Quote:

I don't want to overcrimp these suckers as I'm pretty close to max load.

Crimping should not be dictated by the load. You should crimp properly and uniformly for the caliber and bullet type you are using. Adjust the load as required to achieve your goal, from plinking to full-house rounds. Sounds to me like you're not crimping quite tight enough.

ShootingNut · January 13, 2008, 10:58 AM

Using my Lee factory crimp die, I have been setting it to just give me a noticeable roll around the mouth edge, taking off the "sharpness" or ledge.
Always been hard for me, to really know what is the perfect amount, but that's what I've been doing and it seems to feed/shoot just fine.

SN

Alleykat · January 13, 2008, 02:28 PM

If you "overcrimp", you'll actually cause less neck tension, not more.

Sigma 40 Blaster · January 13, 2008, 03:57 PM

Thanks for all the responses guys.

I've loaded several thousand rounds of the same weight, this is just a new bullet vendor for me. I loaded up 20 with my old load to make sure all was about the same...no problems. I wanted a little stronger load be closer to shooting factory ammo so I increased the charge weight by .2 grains and after fighting with my bullet seating die I left the bullet seating at 1.1293. Let me say that the first 20 I shot had that same OAL, and the same crimp profile, not really crimped but flattened out as I've read several places that you don't really want to crimp lead bullets (not sure if it's true or not..just what I've read).

Had a couple of hiccups at the range just doing target practice, those hiccups translated into several FTF's while shooting IDPA, basically adding 4-7 seconds to each stage...and my accuracy sucked after I rushed to make up seconds lost...

Also, RE: the bullet profile. I've shot several types of RN bullets, most actually had round sides on the point and the base of the bullet, these things have very sharp angles, they leave holes like the SWC's that I was shooting. I have some mastercastbullets that I'm about to load up and I'm going to see how a larger sample (100) feeds with the same setup I have here, and will look to reduce OAL if I have any problems.

thebees · January 13, 2008, 10:02 PM

Always crimp lead bullets for a handgun. For an autoloader, use a roll crimp. Reloading manual have info.

Sigma 40 Blaster · January 23, 2008, 07:40 AM

Just thought I'd follow this thread up to and post what I found.

My PX4 does not like this particular type of bullet. I tried all suggestions (safely of course) with these bullets I have left and NOTHING I could do would make them feed. The common problem was that the very edge of the tip of the bullet would snag while chambering. Reducing OAL to 1.118 helped this problem but did not stop it (I did this safely in very small increments and someone had a chrono they used to help me determine bullet velocity as I sized the round down.

I would shoot one, rack the slide, shoot one, rack the slide so I could examine the bullet after chambering to see if there were marks that indicated the bullet tip was hitting the chamber. There were consistent markings on every round.

After doing some more research I found the profile of this bullet (I wish I figure out how to take good focused pictures of these things) is different from the bullet of pretty much any manufacturer of cast bullets. My research was mainly looking at pictures and measurements wherever I could and visiting some gun shops and just measuring their .40 cal 180 grain bullets. The nose is smaller (shorter and more narrow) than most, the edges of the nose are very well defined, that is what was catching on the chamber.

These bullets fed into a Glock (aftermarket barrel of course) with zero issues.

I have used the same type of bullet from other vendors in loads I worked up over the weekend and had successful sample firings from both other vendors who use a slightly shorter and more round nose profile with the same OAL and crimp of my modified rounds (1.118 and a very noticeable crimp ring around the mouth of case from the FCD).

After doing some very basic accuracy testing at 15 yards, did the shoot one, rack the slide test, and then I fired 30 rounds, left handed, as fast as I could pull the trigger, re-point at the back of the berm, and pull the trigger again...plenty of bad recoil management and no problems. Also did not see any marks on the bullets from chambering around the nose area.

I also had some feeding issues with SWC's in this gun unless they were loaded slightly shorter than 1.12. Hope that helps someone else, thanks again for all the help and suggestions guys.

AZ Pete · January 23, 2008, 11:04 AM

>>Always crimp lead bullets for a handgun. For an autoloader, use a roll crimp. Reloading manual have info.<<

Sorry, but I think you mean use a taper crimp on auto-loaders. A roll crimp is for revolvers. Auto-loaders head space on the case mouth, so a roll crimp is inapropriate. Also over crimping with a taper crimp will likely cause failures to fully chamber, this is because the bullet will actually enlarge in front of the crimp, preventing the case from fully entering the chamber so as to headspace on the case mouth.

MASTERCAST.COM · January 25, 2008, 11:32 PM

Sigma 40 Blaster,

I think I may have spotted your problem in your first post on this issue. You made a comment about lead build up in the seating/crimp die. That tells me that you are possibly not belling the case mouth enough...you should bell the case mouth just enough that the charp edge of the interior of the case mouth can't possibly contact the bullet as it is seated in the case or you will shave small amounts of lead and bullet lube from the sides of the bullet as it is pushed down in the case by the seating die. It may also be due to seating and crimping in the same step...most seat/crimp dies start to close the case mouth too soon as the cast bullet is seated and that will cause shaving of lead from the bullet and lube from the lube groove of the bullet. Seating and crimping are best done in seperate steps for maximun accuracy and reliability.

You should not have lead and lube buildup in either the seating or crimping die. If you do, look closely at your loaded rounds...do you see tiny amounts of shaved lead and/or bullet lube extending beyond the edge of the crimped case mouth on the finished round? If so, it does not take much of that to prevent a round from chambering properly.

I load the .40 180 TC bullets made here to 1.125" overall length and taper crimp in a seperate operation to at or very close to .424-.425 depending on thickness of cases I am using. I do not have a Beretta in that caliber, but they feed reliably in anything else I have here.

Were the cases you used for the Beretta fired in a Glock first? If so, that may be the problem and they will need to be roll sized to remove the bulge made in the brass in the area ahead of the extractor groove by the unsupported portion of the chamber in the Glock. Your sizing die will not remove all of that bulge...the sizing die would have to resize the fired cartridge all the way down and slightly past the top edge of the extractor groove to do that...none of them that I have ever seen or used do that.

Those .40 180 TC bullets are the bullets that the .40 S&W cartridge was originally designed to function with. They will work well if we can just figure out what is going on here.

Hope something here solves the problem for you.

Mike

Sigma 40 Blaster · January 26, 2008, 03:30 PM

Thanks.

I tried loading these old bullets down to 1.110 in .005 increments and nothing would save them. Just soft lead and a tip that was a little bit too long and sharp. I gave then to a guy with a competition Glock to use...they're great in his gun.

I have since loaded 1000 rounds with a bullet from another manufacturer, they have been excellent. I loaded down to 1.120 with 5.4 grains of Unique, excellent performance and accuracy. I just put in an order for another 1000 bullets yesterday.

T. O'Heir · January 26, 2008, 04:42 PM

"...a noticeable roll around the mouth edge..." No roll crimping for the .40 S&W. It headspaces on the case mouth. Taper crimp only.
Chamfering the rear of the chamber can aid feeding FP's and SWC's. You extend the feed ramp about half way up the sides of the chamber. FP's or RN's work better in pistols though.

January 13, 2008, 05:29 AM	#1
Sigma 40 Blaster Senior Member Join Date: July 1, 2007 Location: East Texas Posts: 997	Fail To Feed -- WHY????? I have been hit with a serious FTF bug with my last batch of .40 S&W. I'm using 180 grain TCNF bullets, 5.4 grains of Unique with a COAL of 1.130. This is a new bullet type for me, the angles on the tip of this bullet are very hard...more like a SWC . I'm looking at the misfeeds and you can see on one side of the bullet where the tip is hitting the chamber and sticking (clean chamber, no reason something should stick). So is the solution for this problem to load them a little shorter OR just avoid bullets with this type of profile in the future? I am using a Lee FCD with enough of a taper crimp that I am knocking the case mouth back to it's original size (calipers pass smoothly over the case mouth, maybe .001 bigger) , I don't want to overcrimp these suckers as I'm pretty close to max load. BTW, I'm shooting a PX4 storm. I have never had any real feeding problems except with SWC's that were accidentally loaded too short (due to lead buildup in seating/crimping die) or cases that were not crimped enough. To prevent problems like this do most of you load with the min COAL or do you just have to play with the dimensions of the round to match them to your gun?

January 13, 2008, 06:55 AM	#2
UGH Senior Member Join Date: October 3, 2007 Posts: 156	I would adjust the COL to 1.125 and see if that helps. I would also start at a reduced load and work from there as shortening the COL can increase pressures. I use 6 grains of Power Pistol with a 180 grain FMJ. If you get a chance you should give Power Pistol a try for the .40. I generally go in the middle when I try a new load and that seems to work out ok. But then I shoot a Sig P229. No feeding issues with that. __________________ If you liberals keep gettin' your way - we're all gonna hear one big loud flush. The sound of the U.S. of A. goin' straight down the toilet.- Archie Bunker............. Firearms are second only to the Constitution in importance; they are the peoples' liberty's teeth. George Washington

January 13, 2008, 09:09 AM	#3
ShootingNut Senior Member Join Date: December 27, 2006 Location: Wisconsin Posts: 1,475	Sigma Hi, My son has a PX40 as you, and he also had feeding problems with that very OAL. So, we load up the 180 gr. TCFP to 1.118" OAL, and the 155 gr. at 1.110" to 1.115" SWC , now he has no feeding problems at all. I have a MP40 which eats both lenths, even the 1.130" with no problem. The PX is a little bit more finicky, but a great gun. Not that it matters, but we use Accurate #5, with 5.8 grains with 180's, and 7.0 grains with the 155's. Works great for us, and loves to eat that red spot right out of the targets. Give this a try and you should be good. SN

January 13, 2008, 10:58 AM	#6
ShootingNut Senior Member Join Date: December 27, 2006 Location: Wisconsin Posts: 1,475	Crimp Using my Lee factory crimp die, I have been setting it to just give me a noticeable roll around the mouth edge, taking off the "sharpness" or ledge. Always been hard for me, to really know what is the perfect amount, but that's what I've been doing and it seems to feed/shoot just fine. SN

January 13, 2008, 10:02 PM	#9
thebees Junior Member Join Date: August 11, 2006 Location: Just outside Dallas Posts: 11	Lead Bullets Always crimp lead bullets for a handgun. For an autoloader, use a roll crimp. Reloading manual have info.

January 13, 2008, 09:12 AM	#4
Alleykat Junior member Join Date: July 26, 2007 Posts: 3,668	Your trepidation regarding crimping more firmly is ill-founded. You'll adversely affect the pressure a lot more by reducing the o.a.l. than by crimping tighter.

January 13, 2008, 02:28 PM	#7
Alleykat Junior member Join Date: July 26, 2007 Posts: 3,668	If you "overcrimp", you'll actually cause less neck tension, not more.

January 13, 2008, 03:57 PM	#8
Sigma 40 Blaster Senior Member Join Date: July 1, 2007 Location: East Texas Posts: 997	Thanks for all the responses guys. I've loaded several thousand rounds of the same weight, this is just a new bullet vendor for me. I loaded up 20 with my old load to make sure all was about the same...no problems. I wanted a little stronger load be closer to shooting factory ammo so I increased the charge weight by .2 grains and after fighting with my bullet seating die I left the bullet seating at 1.1293. Let me say that the first 20 I shot had that same OAL, and the same crimp profile, not really crimped but flattened out as I've read several places that you don't really want to crimp lead bullets (not sure if it's true or not..just what I've read). Had a couple of hiccups at the range just doing target practice, those hiccups translated into several FTF's while shooting IDPA, basically adding 4-7 seconds to each stage...and my accuracy sucked after I rushed to make up seconds lost... Also, RE: the bullet profile. I've shot several types of RN bullets, most actually had round sides on the point and the base of the bullet, these things have very sharp angles, they leave holes like the SWC's that I was shooting. I have some mastercastbullets that I'm about to load up and I'm going to see how a larger sample (100) feeds with the same setup I have here, and will look to reduce OAL if I have any problems.

January 23, 2008, 07:40 AM	#10
Sigma 40 Blaster Senior Member Join Date: July 1, 2007 Location: East Texas Posts: 997	Just thought I'd follow this thread up to and post what I found. My PX4 does not like this particular type of bullet. I tried all suggestions (safely of course) with these bullets I have left and NOTHING I could do would make them feed. The common problem was that the very edge of the tip of the bullet would snag while chambering. Reducing OAL to 1.118 helped this problem but did not stop it (I did this safely in very small increments and someone had a chrono they used to help me determine bullet velocity as I sized the round down. I would shoot one, rack the slide, shoot one, rack the slide so I could examine the bullet after chambering to see if there were marks that indicated the bullet tip was hitting the chamber. There were consistent markings on every round. After doing some more research I found the profile of this bullet (I wish I figure out how to take good focused pictures of these things) is different from the bullet of pretty much any manufacturer of cast bullets. My research was mainly looking at pictures and measurements wherever I could and visiting some gun shops and just measuring their .40 cal 180 grain bullets. The nose is smaller (shorter and more narrow) than most, the edges of the nose are very well defined, that is what was catching on the chamber. These bullets fed into a Glock (aftermarket barrel of course) with zero issues. I have used the same type of bullet from other vendors in loads I worked up over the weekend and had successful sample firings from both other vendors who use a slightly shorter and more round nose profile with the same OAL and crimp of my modified rounds (1.118 and a very noticeable crimp ring around the mouth of case from the FCD). After doing some very basic accuracy testing at 15 yards, did the shoot one, rack the slide test, and then I fired 30 rounds, left handed, as fast as I could pull the trigger, re-point at the back of the berm, and pull the trigger again...plenty of bad recoil management and no problems. Also did not see any marks on the bullets from chambering around the nose area. I also had some feeding issues with SWC's in this gun unless they were loaded slightly shorter than 1.12. Hope that helps someone else, thanks again for all the help and suggestions guys.

January 23, 2008, 11:04 AM	#11
AZ Pete Junior Member Join Date: January 17, 2008 Posts: 14	>>Always crimp lead bullets for a handgun. For an autoloader, use a roll crimp. Reloading manual have info.<< Sorry, but I think you mean use a taper crimp on auto-loaders. A roll crimp is for revolvers. Auto-loaders head space on the case mouth, so a roll crimp is inapropriate. Also over crimping with a taper crimp will likely cause failures to fully chamber, this is because the bullet will actually enlarge in front of the crimp, preventing the case from fully entering the chamber so as to headspace on the case mouth.

January 25, 2008, 11:32 PM	#12
MASTERCAST.COM Junior member Join Date: December 16, 2007 Posts: 63	Fail To Feed Sigma 40 Blaster, I think I may have spotted your problem in your first post on this issue. You made a comment about lead build up in the seating/crimp die. That tells me that you are possibly not belling the case mouth enough...you should bell the case mouth just enough that the charp edge of the interior of the case mouth can't possibly contact the bullet as it is seated in the case or you will shave small amounts of lead and bullet lube from the sides of the bullet as it is pushed down in the case by the seating die. It may also be due to seating and crimping in the same step...most seat/crimp dies start to close the case mouth too soon as the cast bullet is seated and that will cause shaving of lead from the bullet and lube from the lube groove of the bullet. Seating and crimping are best done in seperate steps for maximun accuracy and reliability. You should not have lead and lube buildup in either the seating or crimping die. If you do, look closely at your loaded rounds...do you see tiny amounts of shaved lead and/or bullet lube extending beyond the edge of the crimped case mouth on the finished round? If so, it does not take much of that to prevent a round from chambering properly. I load the .40 180 TC bullets made here to 1.125" overall length and taper crimp in a seperate operation to at or very close to .424-.425 depending on thickness of cases I am using. I do not have a Beretta in that caliber, but they feed reliably in anything else I have here. Were the cases you used for the Beretta fired in a Glock first? If so, that may be the problem and they will need to be roll sized to remove the bulge made in the brass in the area ahead of the extractor groove by the unsupported portion of the chamber in the Glock. Your sizing die will not remove all of that bulge...the sizing die would have to resize the fired cartridge all the way down and slightly past the top edge of the extractor groove to do that...none of them that I have ever seen or used do that. Those .40 180 TC bullets are the bullets that the .40 S&W cartridge was originally designed to function with. They will work well if we can just figure out what is going on here. Hope something here solves the problem for you. Mike

January 26, 2008, 03:30 PM	#13
Sigma 40 Blaster Senior Member Join Date: July 1, 2007 Location: East Texas Posts: 997	Thanks. I tried loading these old bullets down to 1.110 in .005 increments and nothing would save them. Just soft lead and a tip that was a little bit too long and sharp. I gave then to a guy with a competition Glock to use...they're great in his gun. I have since loaded 1000 rounds with a bullet from another manufacturer, they have been excellent. I loaded down to 1.120 with 5.4 grains of Unique, excellent performance and accuracy. I just put in an order for another 1000 bullets yesterday.

January 26, 2008, 04:42 PM	#14
T. O'Heir Senior Member Join Date: February 13, 2002 Location: Canada Posts: 12,453	"...a noticeable roll around the mouth edge..." No roll crimping for the .40 S&W. It headspaces on the case mouth. Taper crimp only. Chamfering the rear of the chamber can aid feeding FP's and SWC's. You extend the feed ramp about half way up the sides of the chamber. FP's or RN's work better in pistols though. __________________ Spelling and grammar count!