Safari hunts...

[Savage10FP308]

After watching the shocking video that was posted on here a few days ago about drugging large farm deer and shooting them in small enclosed areas I have been watching the hunting channel to look for anything "weird". What is up with these safari hunts? I just watched a guy shoot a leopard from about 30 yards with a large caliber rifle when the leopard came in to check out the bait they had set out for it!:barf: That is real sportsmanship! How is that even fun? What are they gonna do anyways, eat the leopard? This is after they chased around a hippo for 20 minutes. These guys didn't know whether it was male or female or if it was pregnant or not because it had a big belly. They saw a "wound" aka scar and made the comment that it must have been wounded in a fight and needed to be put down. The guy then shot it in the head while it was floating in the water. These guys are idiots and shouldn't be allowed to even hunt. This kind of "hunting" makes me sick!:barf:

[rem33]

Art has a post in the Legal and political forum ( fair chase law) with a link to the Outdoor channel. I very much agree with you here Savage and sent my view to the outdoor people stating how much I dislike such shows, also that I will not purchase products that advertise on such shows. Wish I know who said products were. Anyone?

[stinger]

Savage10,

Do you hunt? If so, why or why not?

I tend not to judge people unless they are doing something overtly wrong, like the hunting that was done in the video.

But I didn't see the Outdoor Channel show you wrote about. I cannot comment on the hippo, other than if it was wounded and needed to be put down, why do you care? Or if they were just hunting and decided to shoot this hippo, what do you care? Are people only allowed to shoot hippos when they are grazing on the plains?

But hunting leopards from a bait...now that is a different story. What suggestions would you have about hunting a leopard? A stalk? Tree stand? There is really no other way to hunt leopard than to bait it. They have superman-like senses, and are very hard to find in the wild. Most times, even baiting leopards will produce no results. But you did have to go out and hunt the bait, so was that part okay for you?

Let's face it, there is nothing fair about hunting. The animal is not on even ground with (most) humans. As soon as humans began to use tools to hunt animals, the ground became decided uneven. Throw in a rifle, and that changes the game even more.

Let's be honest, each person must set their own ethics when it comes to hunting. Basically, if what someone is doing is not illegal, it would be best to not get involved. You do your thing, I'll do mine. I think humans and house cats are very similar when it comes to hunting. They both show up well fed and well rested, and really don't need to hunt. But there is thrill in the chase, and I think it is very healthy to be reminded of our place in the food chain.

Stinger

[Savage10FP308]

I'm glad to see great minds think alike! And to stinger, yes I do hunt. I hunt ducks, which I eat. I hunt deer, which I eat. I hunt coyotes, which do a lot of eating on my best friends livestock. I shoot targets, which don't die when I shoot them. I don't care who you are, if you are going to shoot something just to put it on your wall the you are wrong. The world would be a better place without you if thats how you feel. If we had less people like that then many animals wouldn't be extinct or endangered. Why do you think about 5%(if that) of the continent of Africa allow hunting? There was an African man that spoke in one of my classes at school. I asked him about hunting and he said "There is no hunting in many areas and if there is it is very controlled. This is why people come to our continent to see our beautiful animals. We have them. You (America) killed all of yours."
By the way, have you ever heard the expression "that's like shooting fish in a barrel"? The hippo had no chance to retreat and he wasn't injured. He had old scars like the rest of the herd. And the leopard was baited into a tree. Also, no chance to retreat. Baiting animals is wrong. If you aren't man enough to go looking for a leopard with a gun in your hands then dont hunt them. If you aren't a good enough hunter to "hunt" one down then leave it to nature to take your leopard. And by the way, without that gun in your hands, you aren't as high on the food chain as you think!

[Foxman]

Too much "holier than thou" there Savage, you have no need to kill ducks or deer to live, Yotes are just "doin their thing" due to too much livestock around, to feed us.
In Africa most of the wildlife would already be history/extinct if it weren't for hunters dollars which pay for game wardens and provide income for the local villagers to prevent the wholesale slaughter of the wild animals for food and skins to sell to eco tourists. Easy to be so self righteous lot harder to actually be right on stuff like this, bet youve never been to Africa and looked for yourself?
I'm all for ethical hunting but a lot less into telling people how to run their country and their lives!

[iudoug]

can say without doubt....no hunters....no animals.....go to the war regions and see all those beutiful animals...oh wait, the poachers killed them and ate them all....and hey, I would also. I am also amazed that you could sit in your lazy boy and determined what was wrong with the hippo. I also hope you told the wise old african man we actually have more deer and turkeys then there ever were.....we just haven't gotten around to "killing them all". I just really have a hard time believing you hunt ducks,deer and yotes...(BTW how do the yotes taste??:barf and would blow someone else crap about a leopard and hippo.....which I would bet some villagers put to good use.

[Art Eatman]

All that fair chase really means is that a free-ranging animal can evade or avoid a hunter. The animal can hide and not be seen or it can run and rely on speed and distance to avoid harm.

Baiting a leopard is about the only halfway reliable method to ever get a shot at one. Ruark wrote at length about leopard hunting; it's worth the reading. One aspect is the requirement to sit or lie for some three hours without moving, without brushing away biting bugs, and without making any sound. And if you don't make a pretty-much perfect shot, you then have the pleasure of finding and finishing an animal that's about your size and very much faster and meaner.

I do the same basic deal when I use a wounded-rabbit call to entice ol' Wily Coyote, but there is nowhere near the self-discipline or risk involved...

Art

[Savage10FP308]

I love you know it alls. No, I don't NEED to eat the animals I kill to survive, but the point is I use what I take as a hunter. The coyote damages my friends business. It eats his livestock. I take care of the problem and keep the hide and dispose of the carcass in the garden. Yes, I know we have a lot of deer, but did you know that the cougar used to roam nearly all of north america? Did you also know that we nearly hunted buffalo to extinction? Like I said before if you aren't willing to "sit or lie for some three hours without moving, without brushing away biting bugs, and without making any sound. And if you don't make a pretty-much perfect shot, you then have the pleasure of finding and finishing an animal that's about your size and very much faster and meaner." then maybe you shouldn't hunt them.

[Rich Lucibella]

Savage-
You're way off base here on a number of points.

It's already been pointed out that one can only hunt leopard by baiting and, even then, there are considerable challenges. I was in Africa last month. One of the hunters took a great Tom; last I saw of the meat, the trackers were smoking it over a fire; including the trachea. I assure you, other than Crocodile in some parts, nothing in Africa gets thrown away; in fact, by their standards you sin mightily by not eating the the lungs, heart, stomach, tongue and brains of most North American game.

As to the "endangered" animals:
- Did you mean in Kenya, which had the largest game population in all of Africa just before banning all hunting in the 1960's. There's no game left in Kenya today. Guess why?

- Perhaps you meant in Zimbabwe which is quickly going the way of Kenya, with the army slaughtering herds wholesale?

- Then again, perhaps you were referring to the USA where some 80%+ of all funds for State Wildlife Conservation comes from hunting fees, hunter donations and hunter group efforts?

Rich

[Yankee Doodle]

Savage et al,
Let's try not to air any dirty laundry in public. Hunters have enough trouble with the rabid antis, and we don't need to be fighting among ourselves. You hunt? Fine. I hunt? Fine. Lets not get on anyones case, either as a start, or as a reply. Lets just say that some of us "agree to disagree", and let it go at that. Why supply ammo to our enemies.
Y.D.

[oldbillthundercheif]

Leopards can really only be hunted over bait. They are just too elusive to go after any other way.

[Foxman]

Maybe Savage10fp308 is an anti just drawin us all out, or maybe he is the best damn hunter/rifle shot in the whole of the USA and we should all kneel at his feet, mumbling "I am not worthy" !. Or Maybe he just has a whole lot to learn yet!

[Savage10FP308]

I'm not the one who needs to calm down. I am simply stating my views. That's what this is for right? I have one member tell me basically that I think I'm better than everyone else (which I don't) and another member tell me he has a hard time believing that I hunt. Who is he to say that? Give me a break! I noticed no one commented on the buffalo or the cougar comment. Why is that? Probably because it was the truth. They are both making a comeback now but they shouldn't have to. I read a book by Edward O. Wilson where he gave accounts of hunters in the Northeast region of the country forming a large circle around many miles of woods. They were all armed and they walked inward towards each other killing all the mountain lions they saw, but that's ok because I'm sure they helped fund the conservation program! What we did then is similar to what Africa is doing now. Do you know what they do to poachers their? They kill them. What do we do? Give them a 50 dollar fine or something? If you are into baiting animals into inescapable situations and shooting them from 10 feet away then by all means have at it. I can only hope that the Leopard lives long enough to pay you back for the cheap shot you just dealt it.

[Rangefinder]

This is one of those subjects that could just keep going round and round because what it all boils down to is one's own personal set of hunting principles--to which there really is no difinitive right or wrong answer (excluding the video on the original subjest matter--I think we can all agree THAT is just plain wrong). I have my own set of beliefs, morals, and practices--as do everyone here. Me, personally, I don't usually hunt another predator. That pretty much rules out bear and cats for N. America. Why? I don't have a personal need to. As for a desire to, I kind of consider it a "professional courtesy" so to speak. Coyotes occasionally, if an area is getting a particularly high population of them, but I can't see extermination just because they're there. When it comes to the hunt, I enjoy the aspect of the hunt. I like trying to out-think a bull elk on his own ground. I like trying to predict where a buck is going to be breaking the tree line and be there when he does. AND I really enjoy the many nights of good eating that follow. These are just a few of the things that I follow when it comes to what I call hunting. I think they're well within the spirit of it. But even so, someone could just as easily jump up and point out that I DO use a high powered rifle, and am comfortable taking a 400 yard shot that I've proven is well within my limits of hunting many times. So maybe that's not very sporting in its own right. So what--chip out a flint spear point, tie it to a broom handle and head for the mountain? Don't think so. Again, it just comes down to minor differences in preference about the over-all idea. There's always room for argument, but rarely a clear right or wrong within the wide variety of opinion.

[Savage10FP308]

he/she brought up some very good points without one single personal attack. I can agree with everything this member said and they did it politely. Thank you for your insight. It's good to see not everybody has to jump all over someone to get their point across. And no, I am by no means anti gun or anti hunting. Once again a post added nothing but pure speculation and personal attack. How surprising here on TFL! I am not going to get in a mouthing match with anyone and I am not going to respond to any more crap. If someone would like to post something respectful (whether they agree or not) then please post. If you insist on insults and personal attacks then please go elsewhere.

[stinger]

I can only hope that the Leopard lives long enough to pay you back for the cheap shot you just dealt it.

Savage, I don't know you at all, but that statement is very PETA'ish. Seems to me that you just might have that bumper sticker next to a 'K' on your Volvo. Personally, I value human life more than ANY animals life ('cept maybe my dog,) and I certainly do not wish any person to be injured/killed by an animal.

Having said that, I think you are a little naive. The story of the destruction of the buffalo has much less to do with buffalos than with Indians. As far as lions, I don't know where you live, but in most places out West, there is no shortage of them.

Either way, what difference does it make whether or not the buffalo or mountain lions were overhunted? That was in the PAST. I wasn't there, my Dad wasn't there, my Grandad wasn't there, etc.

You do your thing, I'll do mine. Do you use a bow to hunt or rifle? If a rifle, then how dare you only get 100-200 yards away from poor bambi while he has no idea you are there? Why not sneak up closer and take him with your pocket knife?

What is the difference between baiting an animal, and knowing where the good trees are and the source of water. Either way, you get the advantage.

We could go on an on, but with your holier than thou attitude, I doubt it will sink in. None of us seem to have the hunting skills that you obviously possess, so I guess we should just bow to your infinite wisdom.

[Savage10FP308]

how immature can you be? And as a matter of fact I do bow hunt. I live in Illinois. You can't hunt deer with a rifle in Illinois. I am pondering doing some handgun hunting for deer if my county is designated as having a surplus of deer (as we usually are). "As far as lions, I don't know where you live, but in most places out West, there is no shortage of them" You seem to be a little "naive". There used to not be a shortage throughout the entire country. As someone else already "naively" pointed out, we have more deer now than ever before. That is because we nearly eliminated their main predator. That is why you can hardly drive around my neck of the woods without hitting one. There is nothing to keep them in check now but hunting. But I'm sure you guys already knew that!
Can we not have a civilized debate/conversation? Keep this crap up and you won't have to worry about arguing with me anymore.

[oldbillthundercheif]

Don't worry, the leopard is VERY likely to pay you back in a gruesome manner if your shot is not absolutely perfect. Heck, you may get it badly even if you do everything right. No matter the technique you use to hunt dangerous game, if there is a good chance that you will be mauled or stomped into goo with even the slightest miscalculation... well, I don't know how much more "sporting" you can get.

Perhaps we should arm the animals with some sort of auto-targeting weapons system? Beware the cyborg big-cats... they will blow you up with HE grenades.

[Savage10FP308]

no danger. The cat was too interested in the bait to notice the five hunters hiding in their enclosed bamboo/brush blind.

[oldbillthundercheif]

Yes, danger. If the cat is still alive when it hits the ground (99% of the time), IT WILL TRY TO KILL YOU. And if you have to track it into brush, oooooh buddy you are in for a hairy experience.

I think you must have seen the Dangerous Game leopard episode, yes? That was a perfect shot by an experienced hunter led by a guide who really knew what he was doing. This is not a good representation of the truely perilous nature of leopard hunting. If you had seen the very start of the episode you would have heard the guide's story about a one-armed leopard ripping him limb-from-limb. That story is much more effective at showing what is very likely to happen on a leopard hunt.

[Savage10FP308]

if you don't kill one on the first shot, then 99.9% of the time it will try to kill you and if not the you are in for a hairy experience when you track it into the woods. So, judging by that statement, you have been on so many leopard hunts that at least 1000 times you didn't kill the leopard on the first shot and it tried to kill you. The one time it didn't though it did the exact opposite and ran into the woods and you had a "hairy" experience. You are still alive. It must not be as dangerous as you make it seem.
Some facts, not just speculation would be greatly appreciated.

[Savage10FP308]

I have seen a mauling on video before except it was a cougar. Three hunters tracked one down with dogs and cornered it in a small space between a boulder and a cliff. One of the hunters stood right at the entrance and fired into the cat 3 times. When it retreated the hunter was directly in it's way so it ripped his arm off. Play with fire and you get burned. It serves him right. He left the cat no other choices and didn't give the animal enough respect. A little planning and thought(common sense) before hand would have gone a long way. A long enough way, in fact, that he would still have both arms.

[stinger]

how immature can you be?

This is nothing, ask my wife.

What was naive about my statement?

You are completely oversimplifying this particular situation. The lack of mountain lions has much less to do with the overabundance of deer in your area than the millions of people who need a place to sleep. Hunters are not the problem with mountain lions...PEOPLE are. People move into their habitat all of the time. Their little poodle gets killed by a lion who no longer has any natural food, so he goes after what he can. Then somebody has to come in and shoot the lion. Whose fault was it?

We are all a part of the "problem" when it comes to the destruction of habitat of animals. It just so happens that herbivores like deer are much more readily adaptable to life in the 'burbs than a 150-200lb kitty. So the kitty has to go. How is that a hunter's problem? Sounds more like a yuppie problem to me.

Are their other factors in the overabundance of deer...sure. But since I didn't mention every single one, please call me naive again.

Maybe we just don't understand what your definition of hunting really is. I bet you and I aren't that different afterall. I only take shots I know I can make...no guesses. I don't shoot does with fawns, I don't even hunt over a feeder. I have never baited anything other than coyote in my life. But I don't judge others who do.

You see, just because somebody has a different way of life than you, doesn't mean that you are better than they are. It just makes you different. If you choose not to hunt leopard over bait, then don't. But don't come crying to us when somebody else does.

Oh, and if it hurts your feelings that people have different opinions and lifestyles than you, then maybe you are in the wrong place. This is typical liberal thinkology..."you are all a bunch of hillbilly rednecks with no reasoning, no open mind, and no diversity...now, everyone think like me, and you will be diverse and accepting of others views."

I didn't mean to turn this into a jousting match, I was only stating my opinion. Trying to reason with you is like reasoning with a 3 year old. All they can do is scream louder, and louder, until they get red and cry. They do not listen, they do not care about others opinions. They are right, and everyone else is wrong. Or as liberals like to call it..."being open minded."

Diversity.

[oldbillthundercheif]

I have hunted leopard three times, but only got one once. My father hunted them his entire life (dozens of trips to Africa). If your only experience with those beasts is watching 3/4 of that TV show, I can understand your thinking it looks too easy. Trust me, the only reason one never got ahold of me was pure luck and good, close rifle work by my friends over there. Leopards are damn dangerous to hunt and if I have not persuaded you to believe that this is the case then your skull is far thicker than mine. Perhaps the sight of a well-hit big cat shrug it off and come flying twords you making the most horrable sound you will ever hear would change your mind? I wish there was some way for you to have that experience...

Your drawers will not be clean after such a sight.

[Savage10FP308]

Come Over To The Bush...

and get eaten alive you pansy little ****. You will never understand what it is like to face a murderous beast unless you get out of the US and DO IT at least once. Piss off.
-OB

This is the tasteful PM oldbill just sent me and someone informed me reasoning with me is like reasoning with a three year old. Three year olds resort to name calling and temper tantrums as do some of the members here on TFL. I will not be a part of this crap. Let me know when you would like to have a civilized discussion. I'm out!