ATF Project Gunrunner - Page 79

armoredman · February 2, 2012, 01:28 PM

video link?

Armorer-at-Law · February 2, 2012, 01:32 PM

Thank you for the ongoing updates on today's testimony. At the risk of interjecting some noise into your strong on-topic signal...

Quote:

Issa points out that he is using the same definition of gunwalking used by the minority in their discussion of Wide Receiver, goes on to describe in great detail the difference between Wide Receiver and Fast and Furious . . .

I hope this point gets driven home (and acknowledged by the media). I keep hearing in news reports how F&F was a "botched" operation. From the objective evidence available, it appears to me that it went exactly as planned -- except that they got exposed and a BP agent got killed.

Bartholomew Roberts · February 2, 2012, 02:12 PM

Quote:

video link?

Testimony ended a bit after 12 central.

armoredman · February 2, 2012, 03:10 PM

Dang, was bringing a sick kid back from school. I take that it went poorly?

Bartholomew Roberts · February 2, 2012, 03:14 PM

Well, we didn't get any answers to any questions that hadn't been answered in the last 5 hearings - though we did get a lot of "I don't know" "I wasn't aware of that" and "We're still investigating" relating to new questions provoked by the latest document dump. I think Tom and I hit the highlights of the hearing pretty well.

The minority was clearly pushing more gun control and apparently if you listened to the CSPAN feed (which fept the mikes active longer), they discussed plans to promote more gun control with Holder after the hearing (I didn't listen to that feed. I am just reporting what several other guys posted in other gun forums).

csmsss · February 2, 2012, 03:24 PM

Same old shuck and jive from the top law enforcement officer in the land, doing the trite and tired delay, deny, obfuscate dance. We'll see a lot more of this through November.

**Spats McGee** · February 2, 2012, 04:41 PM

I'd never heard of mainjustice.com before today, but they posted what purports to be Eric Holder's prepared remakrs for today.

http://www.mainjustice.com/2012/02/0...ght-committee/

Edited to add: I guess I can celebrate my 1,000th post, because this is it!

**Tom Servo** · February 6, 2012, 12:56 PM

This thread is here to discuss the issues surrounding Fast & Furious, the culpability of certain organizations and individuals, the means being taken to stop it, and the possible ramifications.

It is not here to discuss immigration enforcement issues or the validity of internet rumors. Half a page of posts has been deleted because of irrelevant thread veer, and from members who should know better.

MLeake · February 8, 2012, 05:55 AM

Sorry, TS, I'm one of those who should know better.

But back to the proper focus of the thread:

http://www.orlandosentinel.com/news/...,1445929.story

Mexican LE has arrested a major Sinaloa cartel enforcer, who apparently was one of the primary F&F buyers.

USAFNoDak · February 8, 2012, 06:11 PM

What will be the next step in the Issa Committee investigation and when will we know something further in this case? It seems as though, after Holders last bob and weave session, we are going to go into a calm period for awhile. What are other people hearing as to what, where, and when, will happen next?

tet4 · February 9, 2012, 08:23 AM

My personal opinion is that Issa has gotten enough dirt on on the administration and he's going to lay low with it and try some back room bargains this year. If things go as planned, he will let it drop. If he doesn't get his way, we'll see several bomb shells in August.

I hope I'm wrong though.

jimpeel · February 9, 2012, 02:29 PM

Perhaps Holder will now tru to push F&F off on these "housewives" who were purchasing firearms for the cartels. "If we hadn't done this, someone -- like these housewives -- would have."

SOURCE

Quote:

ATF Busts Real Housewives Buying Guns for Cartels

Published February 09, 2012 Fox News Latino

U.S. federal authorities busted an alleged gun smuggling ring that employed young housewives and older moms to purchase assault rifles for smugglers taking guns to Mexican drug cartels.

More than 200 weapons, including AK-47s and sniper rifles, were seized and 22 people have been arrested. Many are accused of being so-called "straw buyers" — gun shoppers without prior criminal records who legitimately buy from licensed dealers, then hand the weapons to smugglers.

<MORE>

HarrySchell · February 9, 2012, 03:01 PM

^^^Was this set up to get someone's skinny rear out of a crack? Someone in a cartel paid back a favor, or snitched on their opposition? Or did ATF burn someone they had been using in F+F?

That's the problem with "lost honor"; some people will never believe the first story again, even if it is true.

And what about the firearms Holder et al have already "walked"?

Nothing has changed but the talking points, the felonies are still on the table if someone will pursue them.

alan · February 9, 2012, 05:23 PM

I could be entirely wrong here, but the following comes to mind re what appears to be "administration shucking and jiving re gun control in general and Operation Fast and Furious in particular".

1. The credibility quotient of the present administration, and its' Attorney General, on a scale of 1 to 10 is likely a minus 15.

2. Personally speaking, I doubt that this administration is capable of telling the truth about the foregoing, or that if bitten thereby, that they would recognize what had bitten them.

3. Last and far from least, I submit that they have made the following calculated decision. They will go to any imaginable ends to avoid telling the truth to the American public, their chief and only concern is reelection.

CowTowner · February 9, 2012, 06:03 PM

Senator John Cornyn (R-TX) has decided to weigh in again on this issue. The link below is to his rebuttal to a Washington Post Opinion blaming the U.S. for guns and violence in Mexico. (that opinion is here: http://www.washingtonpost.com/opinio...CqQ_story.html)

The rebuttal was published in The National Review yesterday 02/08/2012.

http://www.nationalreview.com/corner...en-john-cornyn

He points out that F&F has contributed to the numbers of guns recovered in Mexico and the responsibility those that allowed them to get there have.
It seems that some more of the good guys are starting to get tired of the same old rhetoric and bull coming out of Washington. Senator Cornyn blasted the Post, used facts and named sources. Something the other side ain't doing.
A good read. And, IMHO, something I'd like to see more of our elected officials do.
Makes me proud to be a Texan.

alan · February 9, 2012, 07:38 PM

Re the Washington Post article linked CowTowner, and the "assault weapons" referenced by this Mexican official, if they were real "assault weapons", that is selective fire weapons, usually of rifle configuration, chambered for intermediate cartridges, it is most unlikely that they came from gun dealers (holders of FFL's) in this country, as true assault weapons are hard to come by, legally that is, in the U.S. They aren't all that readily available illegally either.

Funny isn't it, how "small details" are somehow overlooked.

**Tom Servo** · February 9, 2012, 09:50 PM

Quote:

Perhaps Holder will now tru to push F&F off on these "housewives" who were purchasing firearms for the cartels.

Well, according to the Attorney General, straw purchasing is considered no more heinous than a speeding ticket, so what's to deter them?

Dead · February 10, 2012, 11:34 AM

Interesting development

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2012...about-furious/

While criticism surrounding Operation Fast and Furious has so far focused on the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms, three other federal agencies knew about the operation and some of their agents tried to stop it, according to the former chief of the U.S. Drug Enforcement Administration in Tucson

armoredman · February 10, 2012, 11:51 AM

Yesterday was the deadline for contempt of Congress charges against Holder threatened by Issa - did he follow through, or back down?

Bartholomew Roberts · February 10, 2012, 03:04 PM

The deadline was extended by Issa. No new deadline has been set according to CNN but "they won't have forever." http://www.cnn.com/2012/02/09/politi...ine/index.html

DOJ was complaining that they couldn't possibly have all the documents by the deadline given. Considering Congress asked for them over a year ago, I don't know that I necessarily buy that.

alan · February 10, 2012, 04:38 PM

Bartholomew Roberts wrote in part:

DOJ was complaining that they couldn't possibly have all the documents by the deadline given. Considering Congress asked for them over a year ago, I don't know that I necessarily buy that.

Re the above, the following com4es to mind:

1. The English translation of DOJ's complaint is as follows, it's called Shucking and Jiving. When you really don't want to respond to an inquiry, there is never enough time to gather the requested material.

2. Re the Attorney General, and his output, the following question was asked. Is he lying, which is answered by the following question. Are his lips moving?

JN01 · February 10, 2012, 04:41 PM

Perhaps they (Republicans) are interested in stretching out the proceedings somewhat to have more of an election time impact (particularly if heads start rolling).

scpapa · February 10, 2012, 04:46 PM

JN01, you can't be implying that there may be something political about this investigation, can you?? /sarcasm off/
I have thought that all along; they are drawing this out to the Repubican's best advantage.

Rick

alan · February 10, 2012, 05:17 PM

CowTowner, in a recent post, linked 2 news stories, one from the Washington Post, I've already commented on that, the other appearing in the National Review. If I may, the following pertains to the second story.

Proir to the problem of American Guns Arming Mexican Narco-Banditos, supposedly these guns coming fdrom American gun shops, back when Ron Reagan was president, Mr. Reagan was visited by the then President of Mexico, Mr. Zedio. They spoke of drug problems in both countries, and factors related to, involved with this situation.

Reagan criticized Mexico on the basis of the corruption that seemed rife throughout its' government and political establishment. Mr. Zedio allowed that this was, to some extent correct, there certainly and sadly were corrupt officials and politicians in his country, just as there were in the U.S. There were criminals in both countries too. Interestingly however, Zedio noted, re drugs, most of the customers were in the U.S.

I wondered then, and wonder still as to why this is.

**Aguila Blanca** · February 10, 2012, 06:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by scpapa

JN01, you can't be implying that there may be something political about this investigation, can you?? /sarcasm off/
I have thought that all along; they are drawing this out to the Repubican's best advantage.

It may be tempting to think that, but the stonewalling is on the part of the administration. I don't think the Republican's are deliberately drawing out the process, I think the Democrats are. Why? Obviously, hoping to stall long enough to get past the election before heads roll from high places.

February 2, 2012, 04:41 PM	#1957
Spats McGee Staff Join Date: July 28, 2010 Location: Arkansas Posts: 8,821	I'd never heard of mainjustice.com before today, but they posted what purports to be Eric Holder's prepared remakrs for today. http://www.mainjustice.com/2012/02/0...ght-committee/ Edited to add: I guess I can celebrate my 1,000th post, because this is it! __________________ I'm a lawyer, but I'm not your lawyer. If you need some honest-to-goodness legal advice, go buy some. Last edited by Spats McGee; February 2, 2012 at 04:58 PM.

February 6, 2012, 12:56 PM	#1958
Tom Servo Staff Join Date: September 27, 2008 Location: Foothills of the Appalachians Posts: 13,059	This thread is here to discuss the issues surrounding Fast & Furious, the culpability of certain organizations and individuals, the means being taken to stop it, and the possible ramifications. It is not here to discuss immigration enforcement issues or the validity of internet rumors. Half a page of posts has been deleted because of irrelevant thread veer, and from members who should know better. __________________ Sometimes it’s nice not to destroy the world for a change. --Randall Munroe

February 8, 2012, 06:11 PM	#1960
USAFNoDak Senior Member Join Date: August 21, 2000 Location: Minnesota, Twin Cities Posts: 1,076	What will be the next step in the Issa Committee investigation and when will we know something further in this case? It seems as though, after Holders last bob and weave session, we are going to go into a calm period for awhile. What are other people hearing as to what, where, and when, will happen next? __________________ "If you love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude better than the animating contest of freedom, go home from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains set lightly upon you and may posterity forget that ye were our countrymen." Samuel Adams.

February 9, 2012, 03:01 PM	#1963
HarrySchell Senior Member Join Date: March 30, 2007 Location: South CA Posts: 566	^^^Was this set up to get someone's skinny rear out of a crack? Someone in a cartel paid back a favor, or snitched on their opposition? Or did ATF burn someone they had been using in F+F? That's the problem with "lost honor"; some people will never believe the first story again, even if it is true. And what about the firearms Holder et al have already "walked"? Nothing has changed but the talking points, the felonies are still on the table if someone will pursue them. __________________ Loyalty to petrified opinions never yet broke a chain or freed a human soul in this world — and never will. — Mark Twain

February 9, 2012, 05:23 PM	#1964
alan Senior Member Join Date: June 7, 1999 Posts: 3,847	I could be entirely wrong here, but the following comes to mind re what appears to be "administration shucking and jiving re gun control in general and Operation Fast and Furious in particular". 1. The credibility quotient of the present administration, and its' Attorney General, on a scale of 1 to 10 is likely a minus 15. 2. Personally speaking, I doubt that this administration is capable of telling the truth about the foregoing, or that if bitten thereby, that they would recognize what had bitten them. 3. Last and far from least, I submit that they have made the following calculated decision. They will go to any imaginable ends to avoid telling the truth to the American public, their chief and only concern is reelection. Last edited by Tom Servo; February 9, 2012 at 09:49 PM. Reason: Language

February 2, 2012, 01:28 PM	#1951
armoredman Senior Member Join Date: May 22, 2007 Location: Arizona Posts: 5,297	video link?

February 2, 2012, 03:10 PM	#1954
armoredman Senior Member Join Date: May 22, 2007 Location: Arizona Posts: 5,297	Dang, was bringing a sick kid back from school. I take that it went poorly?

February 2, 2012, 03:14 PM	#1955
Bartholomew Roberts member Join Date: June 12, 2000 Location: Texas and Oklahoma area Posts: 8,462	Well, we didn't get any answers to any questions that hadn't been answered in the last 5 hearings - though we did get a lot of "I don't know" "I wasn't aware of that" and "We're still investigating" relating to new questions provoked by the latest document dump. I think Tom and I hit the highlights of the hearing pretty well. The minority was clearly pushing more gun control and apparently if you listened to the CSPAN feed (which fept the mikes active longer), they discussed plans to promote more gun control with Holder after the hearing (I didn't listen to that feed. I am just reporting what several other guys posted in other gun forums).

February 2, 2012, 03:24 PM	#1956
csmsss Senior Member Join Date: October 24, 2008 Location: Orange, TX Posts: 3,078	Same old shuck and jive from the top law enforcement officer in the land, doing the trite and tired delay, deny, obfuscate dance. We'll see a lot more of this through November.

February 8, 2012, 05:55 AM	#1959
MLeake Senior Member Join Date: November 15, 2007 Location: Outside KC, MO Posts: 10,128	Sorry, TS, I'm one of those who should know better. But back to the proper focus of the thread: http://www.orlandosentinel.com/news/...,1445929.story Mexican LE has arrested a major Sinaloa cartel enforcer, who apparently was one of the primary F&F buyers.

February 9, 2012, 08:23 AM	#1961
tet4 Senior Member Join Date: November 13, 2009 Posts: 232	My personal opinion is that Issa has gotten enough dirt on on the administration and he's going to lay low with it and try some back room bargains this year. If things go as planned, he will let it drop. If he doesn't get his way, we'll see several bomb shells in August. I hope I'm wrong though.

February 9, 2012, 06:03 PM	#1965
CowTowner Senior Member Join Date: October 17, 2007 Location: Cowtown of course! Posts: 1,747	Senator John Cornyn (R-TX) has decided to weigh in again on this issue. The link below is to his rebuttal to a Washington Post Opinion blaming the U.S. for guns and violence in Mexico. (that opinion is here: http://www.washingtonpost.com/opinio...CqQ_story.html) The rebuttal was published in The National Review yesterday 02/08/2012. http://www.nationalreview.com/corner...en-john-cornyn He points out that F&F has contributed to the numbers of guns recovered in Mexico and the responsibility those that allowed them to get there have. It seems that some more of the good guys are starting to get tired of the same old rhetoric and bull coming out of Washington. Senator Cornyn blasted the Post, used facts and named sources. Something the other side ain't doing. A good read. And, IMHO, something I'd like to see more of our elected officials do. Makes me proud to be a Texan. __________________ NRA Chief Range Safety Officer, Home Firearms Safety, Pistol and Rifle Instructor *“Today, we need a nation of Minutemen, citizens who are not only prepared to take arms, but citizens who regard the preservation of freedom as the basic purpose of their daily life......”* President John F. Kennedy

February 9, 2012, 07:38 PM	#1966
alan Senior Member Join Date: June 7, 1999 Posts: 3,847	Re the Washington Post article linked CowTowner, and the "assault weapons" referenced by this Mexican official, if they were real "assault weapons", that is selective fire weapons, usually of rifle configuration, chambered for intermediate cartridges, it is most unlikely that they came from gun dealers (holders of FFL's) in this country, as true assault weapons are hard to come by, legally that is, in the U.S. They aren't all that readily available illegally either. Funny isn't it, how "small details" are somehow overlooked.

February 10, 2012, 11:34 AM	#1968
Dead Senior Member Join Date: June 5, 2000 Location: AoW Land, USA Posts: 1,968	Interesting development http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2012...about-furious/ While criticism surrounding Operation Fast and Furious has so far focused on the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms, three other federal agencies knew about the operation and some of their agents tried to stop it, according to the former chief of the U.S. Drug Enforcement Administration in Tucson __________________ Dead [Black Ops] www.therallypoint.org

February 10, 2012, 11:51 AM	#1969
armoredman Senior Member Join Date: May 22, 2007 Location: Arizona Posts: 5,297	Yesterday was the deadline for contempt of Congress charges against Holder threatened by Issa - did he follow through, or back down?

February 10, 2012, 03:04 PM	#1970
Bartholomew Roberts member Join Date: June 12, 2000 Location: Texas and Oklahoma area Posts: 8,462	The deadline was extended by Issa. No new deadline has been set according to CNN but "they won't have forever." http://www.cnn.com/2012/02/09/politi...ine/index.html DOJ was complaining that they couldn't possibly have all the documents by the deadline given. Considering Congress asked for them over a year ago, I don't know that I necessarily buy that.

February 10, 2012, 04:38 PM	#1971
alan Senior Member Join Date: June 7, 1999 Posts: 3,847	Bartholomew Roberts wrote in part: DOJ was complaining that they couldn't possibly have all the documents by the deadline given. Considering Congress asked for them over a year ago, I don't know that I necessarily buy that. Re the above, the following com4es to mind: 1. The English translation of DOJ's complaint is as follows, it's called Shucking and Jiving. When you really don't want to respond to an inquiry, there is never enough time to gather the requested material. 2. Re the Attorney General, and his output, the following question was asked. Is he lying, which is answered by the following question. Are his lips moving?

February 10, 2012, 04:41 PM	#1972
JN01 Senior Member Join Date: May 16, 2005 Location: E Tennessee Posts: 828	Perhaps they (Republicans) are interested in stretching out the proceedings somewhat to have more of an election time impact (particularly if heads start rolling).

February 10, 2012, 04:46 PM	#1973
scpapa Member Join Date: December 23, 2007 Location: Central South Carolina Posts: 89	JN01, you can't be implying that there may be something political about this investigation, can you?? /sarcasm off/ I have thought that all along; they are drawing this out to the Repubican's best advantage. Rick __________________ NRA Training Counselor NRA Advanced Pistol Instructor NRA RTBAV Regional Counselor Member IALEFI, SCLEOA

February 10, 2012, 05:17 PM	#1974
alan Senior Member Join Date: June 7, 1999 Posts: 3,847	CowTowner, in a recent post, linked 2 news stories, one from the Washington Post, I've already commented on that, the other appearing in the National Review. If I may, the following pertains to the second story. Proir to the problem of American Guns Arming Mexican Narco-Banditos, supposedly these guns coming fdrom American gun shops, back when Ron Reagan was president, Mr. Reagan was visited by the then President of Mexico, Mr. Zedio. They spoke of drug problems in both countries, and factors related to, involved with this situation. Reagan criticized Mexico on the basis of the corruption that seemed rife throughout its' government and political establishment. Mr. Zedio allowed that this was, to some extent correct, there certainly and sadly were corrupt officials and politicians in his country, just as there were in the U.S. There were criminals in both countries too. Interestingly however, Zedio noted, re drugs, most of the customers were in the U.S. I wondered then, and wonder still as to why this is.

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