AR vs. AR vs. AR

[Adamantium]

Is the DPMS barrel hammer forged? Chrome lined?

A lot of lower tier companies also use 6061 instead of 7075 for their receivers. Commercial buffer tubes and bolt that are made out of 8620 instead of 158 and are not tested and inspected.

Wow look at all those specs. Very impressive. I can tell you read stuff online.

And which of you have shot out a barrel, broken a bolt or bent a buffer tube? Most people who talk about those specs haven't. If fact that is why it is so hard to find good estimates on service life.

So while I'm not debating which materials look better on paper, and will in all likelihood last longer in real life, people who have educated themselves too much online and too little in real life have no concept of how to apply this information. It is old hat to see people debate specs without adding their own real world experience that show how a certain feature, material or spec has benefited their shooting ability.

[Adamantium]

Why do people buy a $1500 les Baer when they can just buy a $500 RIA? They just shoot the same bullet?

Since I shoot 1911s competitively and have one (and only one) 1911 near 30k rounds through it, I'll be happy to answer your question. Very few people benefit from buying expensive 1911s. Unless a person has a specific requirement for a 1911 which the RIA is mechanically incapable of performing then buying the more expensive gun isn't making them a better shooter. So while I don't recommend everyone buy a RIA (or budget AR) there are very few people skilled enough that there equipment holds them back.

You do make a good point about how they both shoot the same bullet though. In a life or death situation the bullet is what ends it, not the brand of the gun. At the shooting range a bullet is what hits the target, not the brand of the gun. At a competition it is the bullet that puts points on the board... You get it.

Op says they want a good AR for 1000-2000 which tells me he wants something with the specs that come in that price range. not the 700 range.

This statement could be the worst assumption in the entire thread. The OP has said nothing about the intended use of the gun. Some of the posters understand that and have given him some recommendations and the reasoning behind it. Others have just spit out a brand name they like. The OPs budget might be in that price range because he thinks that is how much it costs to get the rifle he wants, which might not be true at all.

[TXAZ]

Thanks to Adam and everyone else for the discussion. Lots of good considerations and thought provoking ideas.
Adam surmised:

The OPs budget might be in that price range because he thinks that is how much it costs to get the rifle he wants, which might not be true at all.

The upper end budget is not arbitrary. When looking at some of options above it, I don't see the value to me. I know I can spend $7500 (as noted in the field and stream comparison article, thanks) on a precision AR but why, I don't see the zero-sum-game benefit. (That is a fixed annual "toy" budget).
Conversely I made a generalization for the low end based on a few of the variants seen / handled (not fired) that I didn't like as much (as the S&W M&P) for instance. You guys have opened my eyes to many mfg's I'm researching, thanks.
As to use, plinking, target shooting out to 300 yards and East Texas hog hunting.
If I'm off base, if there is an off the shelf AR that is as quality product that feels as nice as the M&P (referenced above, for instance) for 1/2 my lower end, please sing out.
I'm not wed to any particular AR.
Thanks for the education.

[G.barnes]

A lot of people don't take carbine courses a lot of people don't do transition drills or dump their stuff in the mud and whatever else. Some of us do so yeah things like stronger buffer tubes and non cracking bolt lugs matter, to most they don't.
If not sure of all the uses someone will have for a gun then you can't say they won't need something. There are people who have shot out non lined barrels in less than 5000 rounds. Yeah that may sound like a lot but when a bcm or dd barrel is good for around 30,000 rounds that's a big difference. Also a great ar is not 1,000 dollar price difference from a crap one. Your right I haven't broken a bolt or a buffer tube because I don't take a cheap plinking rifle and try to use it for something it's not meant for.

[Glockstar .40]

This statement could be the worst assumption in the entire thread. The OP has said nothing about the intended use of the gun. Some of the posters understand that and have given him some recommendations and the reasoning behind it. Others have just spit out a brand name they like. The OPs budget might be in that price range because he thinks that is how much it costs to get the rifle he wants, which might not be true at all.

The OP said he's looking for something in the 1000-2000 range and so me and a few others are actually giving him some very good brands in that range. Not throwing out brands In the 7-800 range( that wasn't his question). had he said he wants an AR in the 700 range, then i wouldn't have told him DD or BCM or larue. I would have given him recommendations in the range he wanted. Get it?

The worse assumption in the whole thread is you guys assuming the OP wants a $700 rifle when he asked for ones between 1000-2000.

[G.barnes]

It's not all about spending a bunch of money. PSA and spikes both build a quality rifle for just under 1000 dollars if you go with the CHF barrels made by FN. You can buy a complete spikes lower for 300 a spikes properly made and tested bcg for 130 a charging handle is 15 dollars and a PSA CHF complete upper with a Midwest industries free float rail for 469. You don't have to pay 1500 dollars to get quality. DD's are a lot because they come with a 100 dollar stock a 300 to 400 dollar rail and a CHF barrel is 100 dollars more than a standard chrome lined barrel. That there is 400 to 500 dollars in upgrades plus whatever else they come with now days. Bcm's vary in price depending on what rail you get. I've seen complete uppers that were cosmetic blems with no rail that were 325. Some people would rather have a Troy or MI rail for 175 or a magpul for 45. If your not sure what you really want buy a S&W sport for 600 dollars. The lower is all quality parts and you can put a different upper on with all the parts you want after you've had it for a while. The sell the sport upper for a couple hundred dollars.

[EdInk]

I saw a spreadsheet type comparison of several of the popular AR rifles. It shows features like chrome lining, twist rate, forward assist, BCG type, etc.

Unfortunately, I don't have it saved but maybe search or another member might have it. Originally, it was on a different forum IIRC.

[EdInk]

I found links to it. It's on other forums. Don't recall the exact rule for linking to other forums. However, if you will google "AR-15 The Chart." It will pull up some links to several of them. Best of luck with your purchase.

FWIW (I am NOT a fan boy for them BUT) I own a Colt and they are very well made and worth the money. I don't think you could go wrong in getting a 6920 with whatever equipment you prefer.

[Dragline45]

Originally Posted by Adamantium

It is old hat to see people debate specs without adding their own real world experience that show how a certain feature, material or spec has benefited their shooting ability.

Spending a premium for quality firearms is not always about shooting ability. In a previous post you brushed off the use of stronger steel and aluminum as if it meant absolutely nothing and it's just numbers on paper, you could not be more wrong. If you are satisfied with your low tier AR's that's great, but don't bash people who choose to spend more for a quality rifle as if they are just wasting their money and gaining absolutely nothing.

[Dirty_Harry]

Wow look at all those specs. Very impressive. I can tell you read stuff online.

And which of you have shot out a barrel, broken a bolt or bent a buffer tube? Most people who talk about those specs haven't. If fact that is why it is so hard to find good estimates on service life.

I have shot out the barrel in a Bushmaster CAR15. But I was shooting very cheap ammo back then. I havent taken any carbine classes yet, but am signed up for one this fall. I plan to do 1 per year. Its all I can afford.

All that doesnt really matter. The OP asked about a quality rifle in a certain price range, and we answered. Contrary to your thinking, people may want the piece of mind of a higher quality rifle. I dont have experience with BCM, Spikes, Colt, but do have experience with Larue, DD, RRA, DPMS, SW, JP and Bushmaster. Just the look and and initial feel, I felt DD had the best quality.

Needing the high end AR or not, there IS no arguing you get better quality with the upper end rifle. Whether the user will make use of the better barrel, chrome lining, higher quality materials etc. is again irrelevant. I shoot handguns now more than rifle, so when I settled on my DD, I paid the extra for something that hopefully will out last me.

I paid a whopping $1200 for my DDM4V1. You can find them for that price if you are patient. It has standard features the DPMS does not. Most people may purchase alot of these features, so it shoulf be factored into the cost. Mine came with a Pmag, Magpul stock, magpul enhanced trigger guard, QD sling mounting points, and a very expensive quad FF rail.

I am willing to bet that those upgrades alone (not talking the extra quality or materials) are damn near worth the difference in price.

[Adamantium]

As to use, plinking, target shooting out to 300 yards and East Texas hog hunting.
If I'm off base, if there is an off the shelf AR that is as quality product that feels as nice as the M&P (referenced above, for instance) for 1/2 my lower end, please sing out.
I'm not wed to any particular AR.

With that in mind I'd recommend taking a look at this

http://palmettostatearmory.com/index...category/4220/
http://palmettostatearmory.com/index...view/id/15174/
http://palmettostatearmory.com/index...ng-handle.html

That is a high quality option at a low price because it doesn't have any expensive add-ons. I have MOE grips on my AR and they can do what a rail does but for cheaper, less weight and more heat shielding. Combine that with any lower and you still have plenty of money left for an optic. If you want to hunt the longer barrel = more velocity and more range.

[raimius]

For the $1-2k AR, I'd feel comfortable recommending BCM, Daniel Defense, LMT, Colt, and S&W. Pick the features you want, and you'll probably end up in that range or just sub-$1k if you want a base model. For plinking out to 300m, most any 5.56 AR-15 will do. Hog hunting will require more specialized ammo or a cartridge change (.300blk and 6.8 being fairly popular for hogs, if I'm not mistaken.)

Does your budget include accessories? $2k goes really quick when you add a $900 scope!

[HKFan9]

I gotta love people with $700 guns (don't get me wrong I own stags and PSA's ect) trying to throw out assumptions that the higher end guns aren't better and saying stats on paper mean nothing lol.

I am not trying to talk smack about you or your gun, but you are simply doing that. My Go to AR is a BCM HSP Jack Carbine. It cost me exactly $2000 when they were first announced. Now.. I have owned more expensive AR's, and I have built junker AR's with spare parts laying around our shop for like $300-$400. When you actually shoot AR's more than a few hundred, or couple thounsand rounds per year.. you start to notice some things. Also working for gun smiths.. in a shop... you get to deal with the good, bad and ugly. I can assure you things break FASTER in cheaper guns.

A low end gun might shoot just as reliable and accurately as a high dollar one... until you really start getting the round count up.. and things start to break. Things break even in high end AR's... there are known design flaw issues... but GENERALLY speaking... happen at a much higher round count vs the lower end guns.

THAT being said... there are still a large number of Stag, and Bushmaster ect riding around in police cruizers... they are decent guns in their own right.. and I personally love Stag as a company.... however my life for a carbine that will be used to protect it, is worth a lot.. and doubles because I do enjoy shooting, and I get to shoot often due to my job... so I had no issues spending money on some fancy pants AR's. All AR's... hell all guns for that matter will fail at some point.... the difference generally speaking is where that point of failure is. You pay for what you get.

[Justice06RR]

Originally Posted by HKfan9

As much as I like building AR's... I generally don't tell people to build their first one, the folks at BCM or DD usually do a much nicer job.

Building one is fun, and learning is most of the fun, however it DOES require some (not many) special tools to do a good job, sure you don't NEED them, but they do help.

Right now you can build a budget plinker AR for $500, or you can go balls to the walls and spent upwards of $3000 on a high end custom, if not more.

Generally for the first AR I tell people to pick a solidly produced one, learn the firearm and the in's and outs, then tackle the building..... then you will be addicted and it is a never ending battle.

+1000

Nothing against building AR's, as they are fun, easy,and addicting, but you need some basic knowledge, skill, and tools to build one correctly.

As far as buying/selecting your first AR15, go with a name brand like Colt, BCM, or Daniel Defense if your budget allows. There are many other good brands, so it will just depend on what you want and how much you can spend.

[Justice06RR]

Originally Posted by mardanlin

If a cheap rifle goes bang every time and is just as accurate and lightweight as the expensive models, how is it inferior? You remind me of tthe guys that buy Gibson Les Pauls insisting that they're better than other guitars simply because of the name.

PS I own lots of Gibsons but I know why I'm buying them, and it isn't bbecause a name makes them better than others. Same is true for guns, cars, hell everything! Sorry if you're questioning your $2000 plinking rife now.

If you think the name brand and price don't matter, you are wrong. Its not about being inferior, but moreso about quality and reputation.

Quality costs money. Simple as that. There's nothing wrong with lower end products--whether its a guitar, a gun, or a car. But there is a clear distinction and difference in quality comparing a Gibson to an Ibanez guitar, or a Hyundai to a BMW, or a Daniel Defense M4 to a DPMS.

Sure they may do the same thing; cars will take you from point A to B, guns will shoot bullets, etc. But you cannot deny that a luxury high-end performance car is built better than a lower-priced car. A $20k Nissan or Hyundai car may be reliable and do what it needs to do, but a $50k BMW or Mercedes is undeniably much nicer and can perform better due to the difference in quality of parts.

The same goes for comparing guns. Although they both do the same thing (which is to shoot bullets) a high-end BCM, DD, or Noveske is better than a lower end Delton or DPMS. Not to take any sides as I don't own a top-tier AR, but again the difference is undeniable when it comes to quality between different brands.

[pilpens]

So far, I spent approx $860 on three separate purchases:
1. PSA Upper is 20" CHF SS Wylde chamber 1:8 twist with 15" MI keymod handguard - $516.
2. PSA Lower with magpul grip + ACS-L stock - $216.
3. PSA Nickel Boron BCG with 158 Carpenter steel bolt + mil-spec charging handle - $130.
I expect to spend approx another $150 for sights and magazines.
I test fired it recently using a 1-4 scope from another AR. Shot 40 rounds at 50 yards and 20 rounds at 100 yards to get a feel of its reliability and accuracy. It had some short cycle issues with 55 grain Tula ammo and no issues with 62 grain wolf ammo.
Fit/build quality - is very good.
Reliabilty -- not enough rounds, yet. It feels like it will be good, too.
Durability -- well, I do not shoot a lot and I am gentle with my firearms.
Accuracy (62gr cheap ammo) -- very good.

If the zombies come, I think I will still grab my BCM/Spike's first because of it's proven reliability and good reputation but for a weekend at the range, the PSA AR is just as fun as the BCM/Spike's and my S&W 5.45x39 upper/Spike's lower.
Overall, I very satisfied with the PSA purchase/s because I feel like I got more for my money than my BCM/Spike's combo.

Would I buy another PSA? Yes.
Would I buy another BCM? Yes ... but it requires more money.

[Adamantium]

I'm sure you're all very proud of your guns and in your minds know that they are worth what you paid for them. The sheer awesomeness of them makes them more than mere bullet throwers (perhaps they make sushi as well). And because you own an expensive AR you can use that as a platform to repeat generalities about AR's in general, without citing personal experience.

But as someone who fits what you describe HKfan9,

When you actually shoot AR's more than a few hundred, or couple thounsand rounds per year.. you start to notice some things.

I notice far less than people think. The number one thing I notice is that the better I am at shooting, the less the gun matters. But when I start talking about that, especially in the AR and 1911 world, the discussion always reverts to brand name and price (notice who we aren't even talking about material differences anymore?). At this point we aren't even talking about why a cheaper AR might have part failure quicker than a expensive one, or which parts are likely to fail first, or how that applies to the OPs intent to use the rifle. This discussion has devolved into "it is what it is and lol if you question it".

When Glockstar put me on the spot about cheap vs expensive 1911s, I didn't mention that my Post-CZ Dan Wesson cost X amount of dollars, like it's my street cred. I said hey I shoot competitively and here is my honest opinion. And if someone where to tell me that seeing is believes, I don't mind bringing a video camera to me next shoot. But I don't play the ownership card like it is some exclusive club that I belong to.

And that, if far too many words, is most likely why we don't see eye to eye on this subject.

[HKFan9]

Again like I said, I own and build a number of cheap AR's along with more expensive ones. I have optics that cost more than two or three of my other guns cost combined. The point I was getting at is people generally focus on brand names and not what goes into cost.

As for person experience.... would you like to hear about parts I personally broke in my own firearms... or parts I have seen break during range days at my job.... or parts I have broken on company rep firearms.... or would you like to hear about parts I have replaced for customers broken firearms.... or would you like to hear about all the customers broken firearms I sent back for warranty repairs.

Now I will be the first to say parts break, things fail, and everyone makes lemons. Another thing from a valued brand is generally how the deal with issues. I can show you a Taurus revolver I sent back to their service center 6 times in a row because they still couldn't get it right and replaced it. I could also show you an HK USP that the back strap of the frame cracked off starting at the safety all the way down and around. **** happens.... I can also show you mid '80's Taurus handguns that run like a clock.

The same goes for the AR world. First gen SW AR's were nightmares, since they were out sourcing everything from all over and generally stacking tolerances like most modern companies do. However the failures were numerous... since then they have gotten better when they brought it in house. DPMS/Bushmaster still gives us the most issues. Sheer'd off bolt lugs, cracked recievers (mostly the c15 ones but some alumnium ones. C15's flat top rails which is a piece of alumnium molded into the plastic come off frequently. Sear and trigger engagement's worn too quickly. Pins out of spec and walking out. Gas keys getting loose and coming off..... I have seen a customer smash the buffer tube off the ground attemtping to clear a jam and break the reciever extension off the lower. I have seen guys break the trigger guard tabs off the lower. I have sent back countless AR's from most generic brands, with reliability issues, generally they just send back a letter stating its been addressed and repaired, not very many details. Gas blocks not properly sized, or installed.

NOW don't get me wrong... all those issues I deal with pretty much weekly from someone or another can be on ANY branded AR, Colt is not the end all be all like some people take it. Neither is BCM or DD like I recomended. I have dealth with their customer service reps as well, on behave of my customers and myself, and all were good experiences. I cannot say the same for Remington/DPMS/Bushmaster.... speaking of them they actually lost... yes LOST one of my personal rifles. I sent back a 700 Mountain Rifle in .243 for issues with the bedding... and 5 months later they couldn't find it, so told me to pick a rifle from the catalog.. so now I have a .270 CDL sitting in my safe I never shoot.

I am glad you enjoy your gun, my first AR's were both Stags... and I still love them, recomend Stag often.. and I support them whole heartly as a company. Still doesn't make them better than a Colt, DD, BCM, Larue ect ect ect. Honestly they are probably the AR company I recomend to most people most in the day. Why? Because they are a solid built affordable AR, with great customer service to back it up. Their parent company CMT supplies over half of the AR mfg'ing world, including Colt, Noveske and other top end brands.

I don't look down upon cheap AR's.... I even own a PSA PTAC build I did with some left over parts laying around the shop I think cost me a grand whopping total of $320 said and done. It shoots.... has the occasional jam, the staking on the gas key is very crude, and the rifling in the barrel was pretty rought when we ran a bore scope down it. It groups minute of person at 100 yards, no where near as accurate as my other AR's, but its a decently little knock around gun for what I spent.

Moral of the story..... I like AR's in general... but I also take time to understand what I am or am not paying for. I already stated 99% of people buying AR's will never shoot them enough to matter. However I can pick up a Bushmaster Patrolman for around $1100.... or I can buy a DD AR for $1200-$1300... if you are just plinking.... sure save the extra $100 for ammo (actually I'd say get a Stag for $800 and get a better gun and save more money) but if you want your life to depend on the rifle.... personally my life is worth the extra $100-$200 for a better made product, with a better company to back it up when something DOES happen.

The Jack I did spend a lot of money on... but I have spent more in the past on others and haven't been as pleased... namely LWRC who I hear Colt just purchased. The Jack pretty much has everything done for it, so I don't need to tinker it.. however I am changing the BCM comp off of it for a Silencerco one for a Saker556. But if I purchased all the parts for the Jack seperately.. did the cerakoting... and even not including the HSP training certificate that came with it.. I actually would have spent more trying to build it.


I can care less what either of us spend on our guns... and I agree its more about the shooter... Jerry M can shoot a snub nose revolver out of the box worlds better than me or you ever could. However funny you bring up 1911's because it helps my point. Ask a gun smith who builds 1911's why they generally don't work on Taurus 1911's, or better get often say to throw out all the internals in a Springfield. Parts quality... most times not big enough for us to notice day to day.... play a big role.

[DavidAGO]

no dog in this fight at all; my only AR is a DPMS, I know it is a basic AR. Most of us do not know quality in an AR, many of us here do know quality in a Colt government model vs an RIA. Many of us here would not be caught dead with a Rohm or even a Taurus revolver or Hi Point pistol. I am not a firearm snob, but I will not waste my time anymore on brands that are less than acceptable quality. and yes, quality is determined by me, with guidance from many who know more than I do. I want firearms(and knives and handtools) that will last a lifetime and I can pass down to my children. For those of you who tried to guide the OP in what is a quality AR vs a basic, my thanks. I learned a bit about ARs that I did not know.

Since I really have no need for an AR but do enjoy plinking with it, I do know more about what my next AR may be.

David

[Glockstar .40]

When Glockstar put me on the spot about cheap vs expensive 1911s, I didn't mention that my Post-CZ Dan Wesson cost X amount of dollars, like it's my street cred. I said hey I shoot competitively and here is my honest opinion. And if someone where to tell me that seeing is believes, I don't mind bringing a video camera to me next shoot. But I don't play the ownership card like it is some exclusive club that I belong to.

I didn't intend to put you on the spot. Nor did I EVER intend to buy my DD to up my street cred. To me that seems silly. I'm not a brand snob either but I do appreciate a quality AR. That's not to say that lower tier ARs are crap. Like I said in my earlier post, my brothers DPMS runs great. But like HK said he sees the most problems with lower tier AR's.

Now.... The OP has asked about ARs that are between the 1000-2000 range. My DD cost me 1400. That is on the lower spectrum of his range. So you guys screaming out that we're all about spending the most money for an AR is ridiculous. I'm just giving him a QUALITY AR on the lower end of his budget that will last a lifetime. If he does out shoot the DD well then I probably saved him from buying another AR 20,000 rounds earlier.

[Adamantium]

HKfan9, this thread isn't about your financial prowess. Seriously, no one asked. If you want to talk about gun problems you have seen, go ahead, it will add to the thread.

In fact it would even be on topic with what I originally said, when trying to provoke a debate...

"So while I'm not debating which materials look better on paper, and will in all likelihood last longer in real life, people who have educated themselves too much online and too little in real life have no concept of how to apply this information. It is old hat to see people debate specs without adding their own real world experience that show how a certain feature, material or spec has benefited their shooting ability."

But grandstanding for an entire page to prove your mettle to me is only going to get this thread locked.

[HKFan9]

I don't see how I was grand standing.... or that I was showing finacial prowess.... I am a teacher.. and hold a 2nd job working in a gun shop... I went to college to be a teacher and never expected to become rich from it. It sounds like you are upset when people tell you something is better.

As I said time and time again, I have very cheaply built AR's that most people would scoff at, and yet I still enjoy them, and I understand how they are weaker. I fail to see how I am only educated online when I actually work WITH broken down firearms daily, if you are more qualified to speak on the matter, certainly be my guest. I know you shoot competition, and according to you shoot fairly often, so maybe you work in the industry as well?

If you want "real world education" pick a make and model of which ever AR you want... I can search it in our data base, because I am the person who enters and does all the paperwork for the gun smiths. I can go back probably 10-15 years and tell you how many we have had broken and for what, and thats not including the ones we repaired on the spot for people we didn't have to check in. But you are right.... I am only educated online with numbers on sheets of paper.

Funny you get so upset with what I say yet other people are quoting agreeing with me... yet my finacial prowess of being a pretty recent college grad with student debt teaching a public school, is SOOO intimidating for you. I don't know how many times I have to say.. I own cheap guns as well, and have no qualms with them, but I find it offensive when people such as yourself, get upset when someone owns a more expensive rifle, or even dare recomend a more expensive rifle and get told we don't know what we are talking about. When realistically, the price difference in the grand scheme of things... really isn't much different... for someone such as yourself who shoots a lot and competitively... even reloading.... I would bet pays more per year in ammo than you did on the firearm.

Buds RIGHT NOW... is selling a DD M4v5 for $1089..... please explain why Bushmaster for basically the same price is a better gun?

CDNN has Colt 6920's with Magpul extras, 5 mags, and a jacket for $899 right now.... Still think Bushmaster is better for that kind of money?

[zach_]

Please continue. It is good to see different opinions being put out there.

[Knightsofnee]

Windham Weaponry is what you seek. Everything you need, nothing you don't.

[tirod]

C'mon, guys, continuing the tribal warfare for your Brand and to salve your ego doesn't answer his question. And the reality is until the OP specifies exactly how he intends to use it, saying "Brand X is Best!" means nothing. Nada. Zilch.

In that price range, you can buy an extremely accurate 6.5 Grendel with 22" barrel capable of holding .5 MOA out to 800 yards, sniper stock, free float, bipod, and right side charger action. OR, a 6.8 SBR for entry use.

Now, with that in mind and knowing that the maker of one rarely does the other, what good does naming a Brand do? The shooters specifications need to determine that from the huge assortment of guns available. You get the better gun by specifying the FEATURES first - that quickly whittles down the names that get tossed around and starts narrowing things down much more quickly that the pages of ego trolling we have already suffered on the subject.

None of the Brand suggestions do any good at all until you get down to a X vs Y vs Z comparison. And even then the shooter's preference - no ours - has the final say.

That's why the OP's question is just stirring the pot, and we should require the specifications. If it's at all a serious question.