need some help on concentricity...

tactikalwarfare · October 1, 2005, 04:51 AM

hi all!!!
i am new to reloading and to these forums.
i was wondering if someone could help a newbie out...?

OK, i am reloading with a rock chucker press and forster dies, my problem is,
when i neck size my case i am using lube"powder" my actions are smooth, it doesn't feel like the case is hagnin or anything, but when i put it on the concentricity gauge, it is reading way out!!!
so bad that if i role it on the table you can see the neck wobble...

Is there somthing i might be doing wrong? any tips or tricks for this?

i have followed the setup to the "T" on the instruction sheet that came with the dies but, it just doesn't seem to wanna work... I puposely bought these expensive dies just so i wouldn't have to deal with things like this that you see in cheaper dies...

Thanks for any help/sugestions that you all could make...
thanks, dave

WESHOOT2 · October 1, 2005, 09:03 AM

1) Loosen die locking ring.

2) Insert die into press.

3) Insert case into die (just as you would when resizing).

4) Tighten locking ring.

Help any?

918v · October 1, 2005, 11:24 AM

If everything aligns, and you still have problems, then remember that the more brass you move, the more stress you induce, and the more crooked the case will be.

Brass from match chambers is easier to keep straight because it hardly grows during firing, maybe .002" to .003".

Brass from factory chambers sometimes expands more than .010" and reducing it back to original creates runout. I found that using bushing dies and reducing the neck diameter in two steps actually reduces runout by 50%

Finally, crappy brass can never be fixed. I once had a R-P 22-250 case that measured .0005" runout from the chamber, but .027" from the sizer die. It looked like a banana.

Smokey Joe · October 1, 2005, 08:24 PM

Tactikal--First of all, welcome to The High Road! As nice a bunch of ladies and gents as you might hope to meet. Glad to have you aboard!

Now, as to yr problem--Geez, ain't it frustrating! But handloading is an ongoing learning experience--There are no masters, just students at different levels.

918V may have the answer. What are you using for brass? The "any old stuff" you pick up at the range has a very nice price, but how was it abused before you got it?? Military brass was made for battle accuracy, and to be used only once. Your own once-fired commercial brass is better because you know where all of it came from, but it still may have too much variation. You may end up buying premium brass, Norma or Lapua (This last is the best brass on Earth, IMHO) and being happy with it.

Try the fixes Weshootz suggests. Go to yr local gun shop and ask someone knowledgeable for advice. If that fails, go the Lapua route. It has helped my handloads.

esheato · October 1, 2005, 08:43 PM

Smokey....I know it's difficult to remember which board you're on, but this is TFL.

tactical,

My suggestion is to take the die out of the press, completely clean it and reassemble it....you might have it set up wrong.

Ed

Smokey Joe · October 1, 2005, 09:22 PM

Escheato--You're right of course! My bad!

And Tactikal--since most members occupy a place on both boards, THIS is ALSO a fine bunch of ladies and gentlemen!!!

Boy is my face red.

tactikalwarfare · October 2, 2005, 03:23 AM

WESHOOT2: I tried your aproach and it shortend the gap by .0001, i am still .0004 out though...

i have tried cleaning the die completely with gun oil, i have tried putting the die together and setting it up a thousand times, still to no success...

i just don't get it, when ordering the dies, i looked at 5 different die companies. i went with forster because they claim that they have the strickest limits on there dies, that competion shooters and such use there dies because of how precise they are... also, they were twice as much and i figured i couldn't go wrong

...HAHAHAHAHA!!!!

as for brass, i am trying to work with once fired federal that i bought new and shot. looks like they won't get a second shot...

i really appriciate all the help you guys helped me with... looks like i found a great forum to hang around.... THANKS!!!!!

DAVE

tactikalwarfare · October 2, 2005, 06:51 AM

one more thing:

i have been playing around all night with this...out of 30 cases 5 of them are with in specs. being that there are 5 ok, would that mean that it is the brass and not the dies...?

Toney · October 2, 2005, 12:02 PM

I run the brass and bullet up easy untill it just touches, then i turn the case while gently bumpimg the bullet . Sometimes you can feel the bullet slide up
into the cone of the starter . I use a lee press with the handle broke off
so i get a good feel . once you start down with the bullet rotate the brass a couple more times.

918v · October 2, 2005, 12:16 PM

Try this:

Sacrifice one case by FL sizing it with the shellholder touching the die and camming over. This will size the case the maximum possible amount. BUT, temove the expander ball. Measure concentricity.

Take the same case, install the expander ball into the die, and size it again. The difference is the expander ball will open-up the neck. Measure concentricity again.

This will eliminate a couple variables.

tactikalwarfare · October 2, 2005, 07:13 PM

i have tried the similar... i run the case with out the ball, pulled it out and measured concentricity, it was off, then with the ball in it, it makes it even worse....

thanks dave

Smokey Joe · October 2, 2005, 07:36 PM

Tactikal--Have no experience with Forster specifically, but have you tried calling their Customer Service desk about the difficulties you are having?

Frankly the level of your difficulties appear to be unreasonable--there is something just plain wrong, somewhere.

Many if not most if not all companies that make reloading equipment try to have XLNT customer service, if for no other reason than in self-defense. Dillon, I believe, largely led the way on this, and the others seem to be emulating them.

Anyhow, it's worth a try. I bet somewhere in the paperwork that came with the dies is an 800 number, and if not, googling their website would produce one.

918v · October 2, 2005, 08:10 PM

Dave,

Adjust the die so that the shellholder cams over, run a fired case through it, then remeasure. You should have less than .004" runout at the neck.

Foxman · October 3, 2005, 10:19 AM

I go with the talk to the Forster techline. You shouldnt have any of these sort of problems after trying the advice given. I would also consider using the Lee necksizer collet dies, they definitely give very good concentricity and if you set them by the instructions they will work! they are very reasonably priced too.
I generally use the Hornady custom grade dies and they are superb, particularly on bullet alignment. However for my recently aquired Remington VLSF in 17 rem, even they bent the necks! so I sent for a set of the Lee neck size ones and hey presto perfect cases and it shoots well too.
I have to say I contacted Hornady and they sent me a new expander and rod ( original was off center) and they now work fine. But when your loading for only one rifle necksizing is good anyway.

tactikalwarfare · October 5, 2005, 02:25 AM

918: what do you mean by cam over?

as for calling tech, i will be trying that tommorow, i have sent several emails about my problem to customer help but noone seems to wanna write me back... so, looks like i gotta call to get anywhere.

I tell ya, I don't have much good to say about Forster after all this...!!! :barf:

AJ Peacock · October 5, 2005, 06:02 AM

I believe what he means by 'cam over' is that the shell holder and die come into contact just before the handle is fully depressed. That way, you are getting plenty of pressure on the die with the brass FULLY into the die.

Hope that helps.

AJ

918v · October 5, 2005, 10:23 AM

Yes! What AJ said.

tactikalwarfare · October 5, 2005, 03:01 PM

will do , i give er' a try...ans i'm gunna call them today...huh!!!

October 1, 2005, 04:51 AM	#1
tactikalwarfare Junior Member Join Date: October 1, 2005 Location: atlantic city Posts: 9	need some help on concentricity... hi all!!! i am new to reloading and to these forums. i was wondering if someone could help a newbie out...? OK, i am reloading with a rock chucker press and forster dies, my problem is, when i neck size my case i am using lube"powder" my actions are smooth, it doesn't feel like the case is hagnin or anything, but when i put it on the concentricity gauge, it is reading way out!!! so bad that if i role it on the table you can see the neck wobble... Is there somthing i might be doing wrong? any tips or tricks for this? i have followed the setup to the "T" on the instruction sheet that came with the dies but, it just doesn't seem to wanna work... I puposely bought these expensive dies just so i wouldn't have to deal with things like this that you see in cheaper dies... Thanks for any help/sugestions that you all could make... thanks, dave

October 1, 2005, 09:03 AM	#2
WESHOOT2 Senior Member Join Date: February 20, 1999 Location: home on the range; Vermont (Caspian country) Posts: 14,324	mebbe 1) Loosen die locking ring. 2) Insert die into press. 3) Insert case into die (just as you would when resizing). 4) Tighten locking ring. Help any? __________________ . "all my ammo is mostly retired factory ammo"

October 1, 2005, 08:24 PM	#4
Smokey Joe Senior Member Join Date: July 14, 2001 Location: State of Confusion Posts: 2,106	Welcome to THR! Tactikal--First of all, welcome to The High Road! As nice a bunch of ladies and gents as you might hope to meet. Glad to have you aboard! Now, as to yr problem--Geez, ain't it frustrating! But handloading is an ongoing learning experience--There are no masters, just students at different levels. 918V may have the answer. What are you using for brass? The "any old stuff" you pick up at the range has a very nice price, but how was it abused before you got it?? Military brass was made for battle accuracy, and to be used only once. Your own once-fired commercial brass is better because you know where all of it came from, but it still may have too much variation. You may end up buying premium brass, Norma or Lapua (This last is the best brass on Earth, IMHO) and being happy with it. Try the fixes Weshootz suggests. Go to yr local gun shop and ask someone knowledgeable for advice. If that fails, go the Lapua route. It has helped my handloads. __________________ God Bless America --Smokey Joe

October 1, 2005, 09:22 PM	#6
Smokey Joe Senior Member Join Date: July 14, 2001 Location: State of Confusion Posts: 2,106	OOOps! Escheato--You're right of course! My bad! And Tactikal--since most members occupy a place on both boards, THIS is ALSO a fine bunch of ladies and gentlemen!!! Boy is my face red. __________________ God Bless America --Smokey Joe

October 2, 2005, 07:36 PM	#12
Smokey Joe Senior Member Join Date: July 14, 2001 Location: State of Confusion Posts: 2,106	Customer Service Tactikal--Have no experience with Forster specifically, but have you tried calling their Customer Service desk about the difficulties you are having? Frankly the level of your difficulties appear to be unreasonable--there is something just plain wrong, somewhere. Many if not most if not all companies that make reloading equipment try to have XLNT customer service, if for no other reason than in self-defense. Dillon, I believe, largely led the way on this, and the others seem to be emulating them. Anyhow, it's worth a try. I bet somewhere in the paperwork that came with the dies is an 800 number, and if not, googling their website would produce one. __________________ God Bless America --Smokey Joe

October 1, 2005, 11:24 AM	#3
918v Junior member Join Date: September 25, 2005 Posts: 1,372	If everything aligns, and you still have problems, then remember that the more brass you move, the more stress you induce, and the more crooked the case will be. Brass from match chambers is easier to keep straight because it hardly grows during firing, maybe .002" to .003". Brass from factory chambers sometimes expands more than .010" and reducing it back to original creates runout. I found that using bushing dies and reducing the neck diameter in two steps actually reduces runout by 50% Finally, crappy brass can never be fixed. I once had a R-P 22-250 case that measured .0005" runout from the chamber, but .027" from the sizer die. It looked like a banana.

October 1, 2005, 08:43 PM	#5
esheato Senior Member Join Date: May 18, 2004 Location: Marysville, CA Posts: 110	Smokey....I know it's difficult to remember which board you're on, but this is TFL. tactical, My suggestion is to take the die out of the press, completely clean it and reassemble it....you might have it set up wrong. Ed

October 2, 2005, 03:23 AM	#7
tactikalwarfare Junior Member Join Date: October 1, 2005 Location: atlantic city Posts: 9	WESHOOT2: I tried your aproach and it shortend the gap by .0001, i am still .0004 out though... i have tried cleaning the die completely with gun oil, i have tried putting the die together and setting it up a thousand times, still to no success... i just don't get it, when ordering the dies, i looked at 5 different die companies. i went with forster because they claim that they have the strickest limits on there dies, that competion shooters and such use there dies because of how precise they are... also, they were twice as much and i figured i couldn't go wrong ...HAHAHAHAHA!!!! as for brass, i am trying to work with once fired federal that i bought new and shot. looks like they won't get a second shot... i really appriciate all the help you guys helped me with... looks like i found a great forum to hang around.... THANKS!!!!! DAVE

October 2, 2005, 06:51 AM	#8
tactikalwarfare Junior Member Join Date: October 1, 2005 Location: atlantic city Posts: 9	one more thing: i have been playing around all night with this...out of 30 cases 5 of them are with in specs. being that there are 5 ok, would that mean that it is the brass and not the dies...?

October 2, 2005, 12:02 PM	#9
Toney Senior Member Join Date: August 17, 2005 Location: Stillwater Oklahoma Posts: 790	I run the brass and bullet up easy untill it just touches, then i turn the case while gently bumpimg the bullet . Sometimes you can feel the bullet slide up into the cone of the starter . I use a lee press with the handle broke off so i get a good feel . once you start down with the bullet rotate the brass a couple more times.

October 2, 2005, 12:16 PM	#10
918v Junior member Join Date: September 25, 2005 Posts: 1,372	Try this: Sacrifice one case by FL sizing it with the shellholder touching the die and camming over. This will size the case the maximum possible amount. BUT, temove the expander ball. Measure concentricity. Take the same case, install the expander ball into the die, and size it again. The difference is the expander ball will open-up the neck. Measure concentricity again. This will eliminate a couple variables.

October 2, 2005, 07:13 PM	#11
tactikalwarfare Junior Member Join Date: October 1, 2005 Location: atlantic city Posts: 9	i have tried the similar... i run the case with out the ball, pulled it out and measured concentricity, it was off, then with the ball in it, it makes it even worse.... thanks dave

October 2, 2005, 08:10 PM	#13
918v Junior member Join Date: September 25, 2005 Posts: 1,372	Dave, Adjust the die so that the shellholder cams over, run a fired case through it, then remeasure. You should have less than .004" runout at the neck.

October 3, 2005, 10:19 AM	#14
Foxman Senior Member Join Date: August 13, 2005 Posts: 466	I go with the talk to the Forster techline. You shouldnt have any of these sort of problems after trying the advice given. I would also consider using the Lee necksizer collet dies, they definitely give very good concentricity and if you set them by the instructions they will work! they are very reasonably priced too. I generally use the Hornady custom grade dies and they are superb, particularly on bullet alignment. However for my recently aquired Remington VLSF in 17 rem, even they bent the necks! so I sent for a set of the Lee neck size ones and hey presto perfect cases and it shoots well too. I have to say I contacted Hornady and they sent me a new expander and rod ( original was off center) and they now work fine. But when your loading for only one rifle necksizing is good anyway.

October 5, 2005, 02:25 AM	#15
tactikalwarfare Junior Member Join Date: October 1, 2005 Location: atlantic city Posts: 9	918: what do you mean by cam over? as for calling tech, i will be trying that tommorow, i have sent several emails about my problem to customer help but noone seems to wanna write me back... so, looks like i gotta call to get anywhere. I tell ya, I don't have much good to say about Forster after all this...!!! :barf:

October 5, 2005, 06:02 AM	#16
AJ Peacock Senior Member Join Date: October 17, 2004 Location: SE Michigan Posts: 127	I believe what he means by 'cam over' is that the shell holder and die come into contact just before the handle is fully depressed. That way, you are getting plenty of pressure on the die with the brass FULLY into the die. Hope that helps. AJ

October 5, 2005, 10:23 AM	#17
918v Junior member Join Date: September 25, 2005 Posts: 1,372	Yes! What AJ said.

October 5, 2005, 03:01 PM	#18
tactikalwarfare Junior Member Join Date: October 1, 2005 Location: atlantic city Posts: 9	will do , i give er' a try...ans i'm gunna call them today...huh!!!