Question regarding an odd Colt Navy configuration

yourenodaisy · July 16, 2012, 12:52 AM

First, I would like to say thank you all for the knowledge displayed on this board. I have been nose deep in a lot of the discussions trying to soak up information.

Now on to the question...

A friend of a friend has a Colt Navy for sale. I have tried to narrow down what it actually is but have come to a dead end. Here are the specs I have found so far:
-Serial number under 1000.
-Naval scene, "engaged May..." and the serial number on the chamber.
-Shorter than the standard 7.5 inch octagonal barrel (which made me think it was a sheriff; however, the research I have found states the sheriff models had the stagecoach scene). The barrel does not appear to be cut or modified.
-Notch for a butt stock.
-New York address on barrel, colt patent information, "U.S." and ".36" on the side, stamped matching serial numbers on the bottom with no other markings.

So, did Colt make a sheriff model with the naval scene? Are there other things I should be looking for?

Many thanks all!

Jim Watson · July 16, 2012, 07:37 AM

I have not seen the term "sherrif model" used for any percussion revolver except the ones in Cabelas mailorder catalog.

I see no mention of a short barrelled 1851 in Flayderman at all.

The stagecoach scene was standard on the 1849 Pocket not used on the 1851 Navy. The naval engagement scene was standard on the 1851.

A US marked 1851 would surely have been a 7.5" and this one has been skilfully shortened.

Willie Sutton · July 16, 2012, 07:38 AM

Photos most useful....

Willie

.

Hawg · July 16, 2012, 07:49 AM

What Jim said. The barrel was cut off. There were no short barrel 51's.

yourenodaisy · July 16, 2012, 08:34 AM

Apologies, I just took another look at Flayderman's Guide; I meant the Pocket Navy / Pocket Police not the Sheriff (which is the term the friend used to describe the firearm originally). The guide refers to a short barreled Navy but with the stage coach scene.

Thanks to all who replied!

Fingers McGee · July 16, 2012, 11:15 AM

As Willie said, photos would be most helpful. Are we talking about an original or a reproduction Navy here?

As previously stated, there were no 'standard production model' short barreled 1851 Navies. There are custom and gunsmith made short barreled Navies though as well as some Colt prototypes.

If the frame and backstrap are "notch for butt stock" you don't have a pocket model. Only the full sized '51s, '61s, '60s and 3rd model dragoons were cut for a stock.

If the serial number is indeed under 1000 and it is an original; it would be a 1st model '51 Navy and the wedge screw will be under the wedge, not on top. The backstrap would be cut for a type 1 shoulder stock by having two slots in the backstrap. The frame would not be notched.

From the specs you describe so far; it sounds like a reproduction.

Hawg · July 16, 2012, 11:48 AM

Quote:

From the specs you describe so far; it sounds like a reproduction.

With the barrel address AND U.S. marking? I'm aware of some ASM's with the address.

yourenodaisy · July 16, 2012, 11:54 AM

You guys continue to impress with your knowledge. I too thought it was odd that the notch was there on a short barreled revolver. The screw is above the wedge on this gun from what I recall.

So, reproductions...I thought there had to be an export mark for reproductions (unless they made the pistol intending to look like an original). I looked over the entire pistol closely for potential ground off markings and refinished, none seem to exist.

Fingers McGee · July 16, 2012, 12:06 PM

Hawg - There were some 'Patent Infringement revolvers' from ASM that were marked exactly like 1st Gen Colts.

If the SN is under 1000, there is no way it's an original '51 Navy if the wedge screw is on top of the wedge.

yourenodaisy - is this a five shot or six shot revolver?

bedbugbilly · July 16, 2012, 02:01 PM

Let's not rule out a "fake" as well. As stated, pictures please. I know of one fellow personally who could take a reproduction and by the time he was done, only a skilled collector could detect that it wasn't original. He had a complete set of Colt stamps . . . needless to say, this yahoo's reputation preceded him.

How about the serial # - are they matching? Is it a '51 frame size? What is the provenance of it?

It's easy to sit back and "guess", but that's like giving a description of a prize bull and guessing it might be a prize sow. Pictures and close-ups would be of great help.

Hawg · July 16, 2012, 02:16 PM

ASM produced barrels for 3rd gen Colts and then got stuck with a lot of them when production ceased. They used them themselves trying to recoup some of their losses and Colt wasn't too happy about it.

July 16, 2012, 12:52 AM	#1
yourenodaisy Junior Member Join Date: July 16, 2012 Posts: 3	Question regarding an odd Colt Navy configuration First, I would like to say thank you all for the knowledge displayed on this board. I have been nose deep in a lot of the discussions trying to soak up information. Now on to the question... A friend of a friend has a Colt Navy for sale. I have tried to narrow down what it actually is but have come to a dead end. Here are the specs I have found so far: -Serial number under 1000. -Naval scene, "engaged May..." and the serial number on the chamber. -Shorter than the standard 7.5 inch octagonal barrel (which made me think it was a sheriff; however, the research I have found states the sheriff models had the stagecoach scene). The barrel does not appear to be cut or modified. -Notch for a butt stock. -New York address on barrel, colt patent information, "U.S." and ".36" on the side, stamped matching serial numbers on the bottom with no other markings. So, did Colt make a sheriff model with the naval scene? Are there other things I should be looking for? Many thanks all!

July 16, 2012, 11:15 AM	#6
Fingers McGee Senior Member Join Date: March 19, 2008 Location: High & Dry in Missouri Ozarks Posts: 2,113	As Willie said, photos would be most helpful. Are we talking about an original or a reproduction Navy here? As previously stated, there were no 'standard production model' short barreled 1851 Navies. There are custom and gunsmith made short barreled Navies though as well as some Colt prototypes. If the frame and backstrap are "notch for butt stock" you don't have a pocket model. Only the full sized '51s, '61s, '60s and 3rd model dragoons were cut for a stock. If the serial number is indeed under 1000 and it is an original; it would be a 1st model '51 Navy and the wedge screw will be under the wedge, not on top. The backstrap would be cut for a type 1 shoulder stock by having two slots in the backstrap. The frame would not be notched. From the specs you describe so far; it sounds like a reproduction. __________________ Fingers (Show Me MO smoke) McGee - AKA Man of Many Colts - Alter ego of Diabolical Ken; SASS Regulator 28564-L-TG; Rangemaster and stage writer extraordinaire; Frontiersman, Pistoleer, NRA Endowment Life, NMLRA, SAF, CCRKBA, STORM 327, SV115; Charter member, Central Ozarks Western Shooters Cynic: A blackguard whose faulty vision see things as they are, not as they should be. Ambrose Bierce Last edited by Fingers McGee; July 16, 2012 at 11:27 AM.

July 16, 2012, 12:06 PM	#9
Fingers McGee Senior Member Join Date: March 19, 2008 Location: High & Dry in Missouri Ozarks Posts: 2,113	Hawg - There were some 'Patent Infringement revolvers' from ASM that were marked exactly like 1st Gen Colts. If the SN is under 1000, there is no way it's an original '51 Navy if the wedge screw is on top of the wedge. yourenodaisy - is this a five shot or six shot revolver? __________________ Fingers (Show Me MO smoke) McGee - AKA Man of Many Colts - Alter ego of Diabolical Ken; SASS Regulator 28564-L-TG; Rangemaster and stage writer extraordinaire; Frontiersman, Pistoleer, NRA Endowment Life, NMLRA, SAF, CCRKBA, STORM 327, SV115; Charter member, Central Ozarks Western Shooters Cynic: A blackguard whose faulty vision see things as they are, not as they should be. Ambrose Bierce

July 16, 2012, 02:01 PM	#10
bedbugbilly Senior Member Join Date: November 19, 2009 Posts: 3,287	Let's not rule out a "fake" as well. As stated, pictures please. I know of one fellow personally who could take a reproduction and by the time he was done, only a skilled collector could detect that it wasn't original. He had a complete set of Colt stamps . . . needless to say, this yahoo's reputation preceded him. How about the serial # - are they matching? Is it a '51 frame size? What is the provenance of it? It's easy to sit back and "guess", but that's like giving a description of a prize bull and guessing it might be a prize sow. Pictures and close-ups would be of great help. __________________ If a pair of '51 Navies were good enough for Billy Hickok, then a single Navy on my right hip is good enough for me . . . besides . . . I'm probably only half as good as he was anyways. Hiram's Rangers Badge #63

July 16, 2012, 07:37 AM	#2
Jim Watson Senior Member Join Date: October 25, 2001 Location: Alabama Posts: 18,545	I have not seen the term "sherrif model" used for any percussion revolver except the ones in Cabelas mailorder catalog. I see no mention of a short barrelled 1851 in Flayderman at all. The stagecoach scene was standard on the 1849 Pocket not used on the 1851 Navy. The naval engagement scene was standard on the 1851. A US marked 1851 would surely have been a 7.5" and this one has been skilfully shortened.

July 16, 2012, 07:38 AM	#3
Willie Sutton Junior member Join Date: January 26, 2012 Posts: 1,066	Photos most useful.... Willie .

July 16, 2012, 07:49 AM	#4
Hawg Senior Member Join Date: September 8, 2007 Location: Mississippi Posts: 16,190	What Jim said. The barrel was cut off. There were no short barrel 51's.

July 16, 2012, 08:34 AM	#5
yourenodaisy Junior Member Join Date: July 16, 2012 Posts: 3	Apologies, I just took another look at Flayderman's Guide; I meant the Pocket Navy / Pocket Police not the Sheriff (which is the term the friend used to describe the firearm originally). The guide refers to a short barreled Navy but with the stage coach scene. Thanks to all who replied!

July 16, 2012, 11:54 AM	#8
yourenodaisy Junior Member Join Date: July 16, 2012 Posts: 3	You guys continue to impress with your knowledge. I too thought it was odd that the notch was there on a short barreled revolver. The screw is above the wedge on this gun from what I recall. So, reproductions...I thought there had to be an export mark for reproductions (unless they made the pistol intending to look like an original). I looked over the entire pistol closely for potential ground off markings and refinished, none seem to exist.

July 16, 2012, 02:16 PM	#11
Hawg Senior Member Join Date: September 8, 2007 Location: Mississippi Posts: 16,190	ASM produced barrels for 3rd gen Colts and then got stuck with a lot of them when production ceased. They used them themselves trying to recoup some of their losses and Colt wasn't too happy about it.