Why was the Colt Army Special .41 Long Colt discontinued?

[Doug.38PR]

Since there was some relative disatisfaction with the .38 Special LRN 158 gr among police in the early 20th century, why didn't departments or individual policemen pick up the Colt Army Special in .41 Long Colt? A larger caliber. Just like police went form the 9mm to the .40 S&W today.

I mean it is the same gun as the Official Police (which many police through the 20th century carried) only with a different caliber

[MCCALL911]

I wish I knew why the .41 Long Colt was discontinued myself! I've heard it said it wasn't an accurate cartridge, but I got good practical close-range accuracy from the Army Special I owned and enjoyed shooting it. Finding ammo was a problem, of course, and when you can it's pricey! (I never reloaded, obviously.)

[Tom2]

I don't think there was that much dissatisfaction with the 38 for police work, and some even carried 32 cal. revolvers. The Colt round was sort of an antique by the 20th century, and the weird bullet and cartridge configuration, like a rimfire bullet, case diameter, was not so great. The cartridge was not widely admired, as far as I know. Then bigger rounds like the 44 special came along, as well as the already proven 45 Colt round, which was much superior to the 41. Some might have purchased it personally, but I have no knowledge of it being an issue gun anywhere.

[Hard Ball]

No effort was made by the loading companies to modernnize the cartridbe and improve its performance.

[BlueTrain]

Some older gunwriters had some interest in the cartridge but one reason it may have fallen by the wayside was because it was an outside lubricated bullet that was similar to the .22 rimfire, only I can't think of the technical term at the moment. I believe the .38 Long Colt was of the same design, which S&W improved on to become the .38 (S&W) Special. Is heel-based the right term? I don't think there was a .41 Short (might have been) but there was a .41 rimfire as used in the Remington Derringer. There were some other interesting and now mostly forgotten Colt revolvers from the 1870-1900 period that used some of these equally forgotten cartridges.

The .41 Long Colt was no doubt the inspiration for the .41 magnum and everyone that wanted it probably wanted a .41 Special rather than a .41 magnum, which is what they got. At the time the .41 magnum came out, there was a feeling among some gunwriters that a 200-grain bullet at about 1200 fps was just about the minimum for self defense and law enforcement use, so that's what the ammo company came up with. Be careful what you wish for.

As another contributor mentioned, there probably was no general dissatisfaction with the .38 Special in the early 1900's. Only relatively recently had policemen felt the need to carry firearms anyway and police forces generally didn't go back much further than that anyway. The first offical revolver carried by New York City police was a .32 Colt New Police (A .32 to be sure, I think a "New Police"), which was selected when Theodore Roosevelt was the police commissioner. They even did some "stopping power" tests before choosing the .32. So when the .38 Special came along a few years later, it was sort of thought of as a "big gun." Westerners may laugh now.

I have no idea what sort of challenges reloading a .41 Colt presents.

[44 AMP]

Is not much to speak of. As noted, it was originally loaded with an outside lubricated heel type bullet (like the .22RF) of .410 dia. When the round was "modernized" the inside lubricated bullet measured .387 dia. factory load was a 200gr bullet at 730fps. Not any more power (or much bigger) than the .38 Special, and the guns are reputed not to be very accurate. This may be due to the difference between the original bore size (.410) and the later undersize bullet.

There was also a .41 Short Colt, with a case length of .65" and firing a 165gr bullet. Along with the .41RF, these were reputed to be some of the most feared guns in the old west. Not because of their power, but because they were "certain mankillers". Just not instant ones. While many rounds would shoot "clean through a man", the .41s (especially the short ones) tended to only go about half way through. And the outside lubricated bullets picked up dirt, dust, pocket lint, etc., and carried it into the wound.

So, if you weren't killed outright by the shot, there was a near certainty you would die from infection later. It just might take a week or two.

More powerful guns were actually more survivable (if only wounded), as they tended to exit the body. Plug up both holes, and pray. Survival was considered a 50/50 thing. Today, with modern medicines and techniques the death rate from wounds is much much lower.

And the .41 Magnum, which has a loyal (but small) following was a vicitim of it's own capabilities when considered as a police gun. Several of the leading gunwriters (with LEO backgrounds like Jordan, Skelton, etc.) felt that a 180/200gr, 40/41 cal at about 1000fps would be ideal for Law enforcement work. They got the .41 Magnum. Which deserves the term Magnum, being bigger and more powerful than earlier .41s. But because it could be a magnum like the .44, that is what remington loaded it for. A little later they came out with a "police" load (210gr @~900fps IIRC), but by that time, most interested police depts had tested the gun with the magnum loads (the only ammo available at the time) and rejected it as too much gun.

Ironically, the .40 S&W delivers nearly exactly the performance those old time gun writers were looking for. Just not in a revolver, and 40 years too late.

[Tom2]

Mike Venturino has info on loading the 41 Colt in his book about shooting SAA and old west guns. He owns or owned some SAA revs in that cal, so he took the trouble to figure out some loads you can make that will work. But I think it is a nostalgia experiment, as it seems alot more work than most other ammo. If you make soft lead bullets with hollowed out bases they will slug up to bore size and can be accurate, up to a point. I think it can work with the 41, otherwise a custom bullet mold might make the heeled bullets but I still think they would be difficult to load. Take weird dies? I could see figuring out a load for an heirloom or maybe to just test out an old SAA, but would not seek out a gun in that caliber except to fill a slot in an advanced collection. All I can figure is it is an archaic design that is obsolete, and maybe only served to allow the gunmaker one less step in chambering the cylinder, as there is only one diameter straight thru. The 22 rimfire design from the 19th century is the only remaining artifact of that thought process, and it is a good thing they are cheap and not reloadable!

[ATW525]

I believe Colt also worked on a .41 Colt Special in the early 30's, but ended up shelving the idea. It likely would have a more modern and practical design than the older .41's and was intended to address issues with poor .38 performance. It supposedly used a 210 gr bullet like the later .41 Magnum and there was three loadings experimented with which had velocities ranging from just over 800 fps to about 1150 fps. It sounds like it was remarkably similiar to the Magnum's intended "Police Load".

[BlueTrain]

I was not joking about the 200-grain bullet at 1200 fps but I believe the only person who said that was a writer and holster maker whose name I cannot recall at the moment. I have that problem a lot with my posts.

It seems that with few exceptions, not too many black powder cartridges made the transition to smokeless powder and that could conceivably be another reason that many cartridges did not last in their original form. Was the .38 long Colt smokeless or black powder? On the other hand, some did and lasted for a long time, even if they are not exactly very popular today, like the .38 S&W and I guess the .32 S&W long, which may not have even been a black powder cartridge to begin with. I don't have any reference material at hand. Black powder cartridges remained in production for decades long after smokeless became the standard. I suppose there was at least some demand for them.

I think it is a good thing that cowboy action shooting has kept some of the old cartridges alive, in a manner of speaking, though it is only from a hobbiest and enthusiasts perspective.

[dahermit]

A little later they came out with a "police" load (210gr @~900fps IIRC), but by that time, most interested police depts had tested the gun with the magnum loads (the only ammo available at the time) and rejected it as too much gun.

Having lived during that era, and shooting the "police load" it too was to hot for me with excessive recoil...I ended up going to a 220 cast Keith bullet over 7 grains of Unique...a .44 spl equivalent load...something I could comfortably shoot.
Regards,
dahermit

[StainlessButcher]

I know this is an old post, but some new information has come to light in the last few years. Starline is making brass for these old guns and there are several people selling a small range of bullets, both heel base and hollow base. Perhaps there will be a bit of resurgence in popularity for this venerable old piece. My Army Special is of the type that is the predecessor to the commando, police special?, and python. Back in the day they called these frames the "old 41 frame" and built many fine firearms using it as the foundation. RCBS and Redding both make die sets for them, neither offer it in a tungsten/carbide type, but we can wish. Several loads for modern powders/primers/bullets are available online and perhaps thru some of the older loading manuals (pre-1960) but if you do decide to reload this stuff using older data, start slow and light...at least that's what has been suggested to me.

Butch.