Creating safe "reduced" loads

mauser1909 · September 17, 2009, 03:00 PM

One of the reloading manuals I have lists "reduced" loads for certain cartridges, but not others. I love messing around with reduced loads, and even find them useful. If you have a son or daughter that's not ready for the full recoil of a large caliber gun, you can create a reduced load for them and you're ready to go without buying a new gun. You can make a .30-06 round shoot like a .30-30. You can make a .243 round not kick at all.

My question is this: Can you use the load data in manuals and drastically reduce the powder charge that is listed, and do so safely? Would there be any situation where less powder caused an increase in pressure?

I'm getting some new Nosler bullets, but Nosler's manual doesn't include reduced load data. I'm hoping to just cut the powder charge in half of what is listed, but wanted to see what everyone thought about the safety of this.

Magnum Wheel Man · September 17, 2009, 03:37 PM

do a search for "detonation" there may be some other key words...

...but yes, there are situations where less powder makes more pressure... there are lots reasons, ranging from the primer knocking the bullet into the rifling, before the charge is ignited, to the primer flash bouncing off the bullet & burning backwards in the case...

my mentor warned me not to mess with any double based powders with reduced loads... maybe too much nitro per air space in the cartridge... but you would sure feel bad if that reduced load you developed ( not in a manual ) blew up the gun, on your kid or a new shooter...

Bart B. · September 17, 2009, 03:40 PM

Don't use powder charge weights more than 10% below maximum for the round. Doing so may render the case unsafe to reload as the shoulder's set back too far from firing pin impact and can't be moved forward enough in a full length sizing die to make it safe. You'll end up with excessive headspace and that'll lead to case head separation.

Brian Pfleuger · September 17, 2009, 04:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bart B.

Don't use powder charge weights more than 10% below maximum for the round.

Thats definately not universally true. In the Hodgdon manual there are light loads listed for 30-06 that are as much as 30% lower than the listed max and a good number listed that are a fair bit more than 10% reductions... and that's just one cartridge in one manual.

mauser1909 · September 17, 2009, 04:39 PM

Thanks for the information. I had heard that reducing powder charges could cause an increase in pressure, and now I understand why.

I'll do some more searches to see if I can find any load data for reduced loads.

Jim Watson · September 17, 2009, 04:44 PM

I wouldn't just promiscuously cut powder charges in half, but you can do substantially reduced loads with the right approach.

Back when DuPont made the IMR powders, they said 4895 was good from 60-100% of listed loads.
Hodgdon carries that on in a limited way with their Youth Load section which is mostly with H4895, but since they have not tested all possible combinations, their fears of liability lead them to say to not do anything not specifically listed.

SR4759 is made specifically for reduced loads and at least some editions of the Speer manual show it in a number of calibers.
AA5744 is, too, but they don't show it for anything but cast bullets.

Lyman manuals have a lot of cast bullet data. Jacketed bullets won't behave exactly the same, but it is a place to start if you are careful not to go too light and stick a bullet in the barrel.

Re Bart B.'s post, very light loads will set the shoulder back and cases used for them should not be loaded back to full power. Rimmed calibers avoid the problem.

Bart B. · September 17, 2009, 08:05 PM

peetzakilla remarks;

Quote:

In the Hodgdon manual there are light loads listed for 30-06 that are as much as 30% lower than the listed max and a good number listed that are a fair bit more than 10% reductions... and that's just one cartridge in one manual.

There's a lot in print that says that much reduction is fine. Folks who understand the real dimensional changes when firing, reloading, then firing cases with that much charge reduction know it's a dangerous thing to do. Others will do it in spite of their ignorance.

I'm not implying you're ignorant, but pursuing such charge reductions and having problems may prove you are. Don't do it.

All rimless bottle neck cartridges with safe, normal, maximum loads have their shoulders set back by firing pin impact. It's typically only a few thousandths of an inch then the back of the case stretches until the case head stops against the bolt face. Primers get pushed out a bit as they detonate but get reseated when the case head pushes back against the bolt face. If the load's reduced too much, there won't be enough pressure to push the back third of the case far enough to reseat the primer and the case ends up shorter from head to shoulder reference point than before it was fired.

L_Killkenny · September 17, 2009, 09:58 PM

Hodgdons website list H4895 as a powder that can be reduced by 40% (NOT 30%) from max loads on any load they list H4895 as being acceptable. You have to start your reduction from max loads. They also have a section on their website called Youth Loads using H4895.

Also, SR4759 is a great powder for reduced loads. You can also find many many loads for rifles using pistol powders like Unique and BlueDot. I've got many BlueDot loads for 22-250 and 30/30 but have not tested many. One "internet source" stated that 13grs of Bluedot will work in ABOUT any .30 cal. I've used 15gr in my 30/30 with good results. TAKE THESE FOR WHAT IT'S WORTH and TRY AT YOUR OWN RISK.

You want more than that there is plenty out there. Google "Reduced Rifle Loads" and check sites like Cast Boolits.

LK

SL1 · September 17, 2009, 10:10 PM

With respect to shortening cases by firing pin impact from using reduced loads, I have never noticed it. Reduced loads are not usually real low pressure loads. They typically make moderate pressures with fast powders that have small enough charges that they don't push the bullets so hard once they get a ways down the barrel. So velocity is lower and recoil is lower, but peak pressures are typically enough to stretch the cases back to the bolt face in my guns.

SL1

zxcvbob · September 17, 2009, 10:18 PM

Use a bulky fast-burning shotgun powder. Red Dot is perfect. I've started loading .30-06 cartridges using 12.5 grains of Promo and a Berry's plated .30-30 bullet. Very accurate and low recoil, but it shoots low. So I aim at the top of the target and they all go in the bullseye.

rocky06 · September 19, 2009, 08:24 PM

Looking for reduced load reloading date on the 17 fireball. Looking for somethinf in the 2500 fps range that would be good for squirrel and turkey hunting with edible meat left. I have reduced loads using SR4759 powder for my 22 hornet and 222 rem but cannot find anything for the 17 fireball. Any suggestions?

wncchester · September 19, 2009, 08:32 PM

I enjoy the low recoil and light muzzle blast of low speed cast bullet loads in my 700 Mtn. Rifle in 30-06. A hard cast 200 gr. bullet over 12.5 gr of PB shotgun powder does very well, very inexpensively. It's great for kids, wives and me wheI'm preparing for deer season!

I don't know the speed, never bothered to check, but it will drill straight through a 10" white pine tree at 20 yards so a good back stop for it is as important as any other bullet.

muzzelblast · September 20, 2009, 08:55 PM

http://www.gmdr.com/lever/lowveldata.htm

http://www.gmdr.com/lever/pistolpowi.htm

Here's a couple of links pertaining to reduced loads. Note that the data is for cast bullets - not jacketed. Cast is ideal for working with reduced charges. Warning: Can be habit forming...

300magman · September 21, 2009, 12:10 AM

I have not begun to reload yet, but this subject is of interest to me as well. If I'm loading my 300RUM down to light 30.06 velocities (much like remington power level ammo) I am assuming it is going to be a significantly "reduced load" from what the cartride is capable of.
When you load down like that, do you end up having a lot of empty space inside the brass or do you just do it by using different powders, or filling the space in somehow? I guess I really should be getting my hands on a good manual (and I will be) but since the question of reduced loads was possed I thought I would butt in and take a listen.

AlaskaMike · September 21, 2009, 11:18 AM

As most of the others have indicated, you can't just blindly take a listed load and cut the powder charge in half. Some powders behave very differently from others at the lower end of their useful pressure ranges. Also, some are easier than others to ignite. About the only powder that I've specifically read of overpressure problems (also referred to as "SEE", or Secondary Explosive Effect) on reduced loads is IMR 4831. I've read that reduced load overpressure can present itself in chronograph data, indicated by very high standard deviation and extreme spread. Normally with reduced loads I think squibs and delayed ignition ("click-bang") are far, far more prevalent than overpressure though.

That said, excellent and safe reduced loads are entirely possible to make--I can list several reduced .30-06 loads right off the top of my head:

(all with 150 grain FMJ and standard primers)
10 gr. Unique
15 gr. Blue Dot
20 gr. 2400
22 gr. IMR 4227 (I like a mag primer with this one)
40 gr. IMR 4895
44 gr. H4350 (mag primer with this one as well)

All of those are perfectly safe in my M1903, M1903A3, and my Garand as well, although most of those loads require cycling the action by hand. Yes, even the H4350 load is perfectly safe in the Garand, and will not bend the op rod. Obviously if you bump it up to a more typical charge of, say 57 grains, it's a different story.

Anybody familiar with shooting cast bullets in bottleneck rifle cartridges knows how to create safe reduced loads. I mention this because we have the Lyman Cast Bullet manual with lots of data for bottleneck rifle cartridges. It would be an excellent starting point for creating reduced loads using jacketed bullets.

Also, Ken Waters lists some good reduced loads using both cast and jacketed bullets in "Pet Loads", most of them from other sources like Townsend Whelen, Jack O'Connor and others. In addition to that, I think I remember a very recent (just in the past couple of months) issue of either Rifle or Handloader that had a great article on reduced loads. I specifically recall the author mentioning the flexibility of the .300 WSM in this regard because it could be downloaded to .30-06 performance, or even further to .30-30 performance.

Mike

muzzelblast · September 21, 2009, 08:38 PM

Regardless of what you may have read, one thing NOT to do with reduced loads in bottle necked cases is to use cereal such as cream of wheat or grits as a filler. With moisture they can clump up in a case neck and do serious damage to gun or shooter. Many loads have been fired using such fillers with no ill effect but it only takes one mishap to hurt yourself. Cast bullet loads with pistol powders do not need a filler of any kind.

Personally and from what I've read, I'd be careful using jacketed bullets for pistol powder loads. If you choose to, it would be wise to make sure the bullet exits the bore after each shot and your bullet is not oversized for the bore. Pistol powders reach max pressure quickly and just because a such a load might be a reduced velocity it is not necessarily a reduced pressure load.

September 17, 2009, 03:00 PM	#1
mauser1909 Junior Member Join Date: September 12, 2009 Posts: 6	Creating safe "reduced" loads One of the reloading manuals I have lists "reduced" loads for certain cartridges, but not others. I love messing around with reduced loads, and even find them useful. If you have a son or daughter that's not ready for the full recoil of a large caliber gun, you can create a reduced load for them and you're ready to go without buying a new gun. You can make a .30-06 round shoot like a .30-30. You can make a .243 round not kick at all. My question is this: Can you use the load data in manuals and drastically reduce the powder charge that is listed, and do so safely? Would there be any situation where less powder caused an increase in pressure? I'm getting some new Nosler bullets, but Nosler's manual doesn't include reduced load data. I'm hoping to just cut the powder charge in half of what is listed, but wanted to see what everyone thought about the safety of this.

September 17, 2009, 03:37 PM	#2
Magnum Wheel Man Senior Member Join Date: July 26, 2006 Location: Southern Minnesota Posts: 9,333	do a search for "detonation" there may be some other key words... ...but yes, there are situations where less powder makes more pressure... there are lots reasons, ranging from the primer knocking the bullet into the rifling, before the charge is ignited, to the primer flash bouncing off the bullet & burning backwards in the case... my mentor warned me not to mess with any double based powders with reduced loads... maybe too much nitro per air space in the cartridge... but you would sure feel bad if that reduced load you developed ( not in a manual ) blew up the gun, on your kid or a new shooter... __________________ In life you either make dust or eat dust...

September 17, 2009, 10:18 PM	#10
zxcvbob Senior Member Join Date: December 20, 2007 Location: S.E. Minnesota Posts: 4,720	Use a bulky fast-burning shotgun powder. Red Dot is perfect. I've started loading .30-06 cartridges using 12.5 grains of Promo and a Berry's plated .30-30 bullet. Very accurate and low recoil, but it shoots low. So I aim at the top of the target and they all go in the bullseye. __________________ "Everything they do is so dramatic and flamboyant. It just makes me want to set myself on fire!" —Lucille Bluth

September 19, 2009, 08:24 PM	#11
rocky06 Junior Member Join Date: September 19, 2009 Posts: 1	Reduced Load 17 Fireball Looking for reduced load reloading date on the 17 fireball. Looking for somethinf in the 2500 fps range that would be good for squirrel and turkey hunting with edible meat left. I have reduced loads using SR4759 powder for my 22 hornet and 222 rem but cannot find anything for the 17 fireball. Any suggestions?

September 17, 2009, 03:40 PM	#3
Bart B. Senior Member Join Date: February 15, 2009 Posts: 8,927	Don't use powder charge weights more than 10% below maximum for the round. Doing so may render the case unsafe to reload as the shoulder's set back too far from firing pin impact and can't be moved forward enough in a full length sizing die to make it safe. You'll end up with excessive headspace and that'll lead to case head separation.

September 17, 2009, 04:39 PM	#5
mauser1909 Junior Member Join Date: September 12, 2009 Posts: 6	Thanks for the information. I had heard that reducing powder charges could cause an increase in pressure, and now I understand why. I'll do some more searches to see if I can find any load data for reduced loads.

September 17, 2009, 04:44 PM	#6
Jim Watson Senior Member Join Date: October 25, 2001 Location: Alabama Posts: 18,543	I wouldn't just promiscuously cut powder charges in half, but you can do substantially reduced loads with the right approach. Back when DuPont made the IMR powders, they said 4895 was good from 60-100% of listed loads. Hodgdon carries that on in a limited way with their Youth Load section which is mostly with H4895, but since they have not tested all possible combinations, their fears of liability lead them to say to not do anything not specifically listed. SR4759 is made specifically for reduced loads and at least some editions of the Speer manual show it in a number of calibers. AA5744 is, too, but they don't show it for anything but cast bullets. Lyman manuals have a lot of cast bullet data. Jacketed bullets won't behave exactly the same, but it is a place to start if you are careful not to go too light and stick a bullet in the barrel. Re Bart B.'s post, very light loads will set the shoulder back and cases used for them should not be loaded back to full power. Rimmed calibers avoid the problem.

September 17, 2009, 09:58 PM	#8
L_Killkenny Senior Member Join Date: February 2, 2007 Location: Iowa Posts: 2,676	Hodgdons website list H4895 as a powder that can be reduced by 40% (NOT 30%) from max loads on any load they list H4895 as being acceptable. You have to start your reduction from max loads. They also have a section on their website called Youth Loads using H4895. Also, SR4759 is a great powder for reduced loads. You can also find many many loads for rifles using pistol powders like Unique and BlueDot. I've got many BlueDot loads for 22-250 and 30/30 but have not tested many. One "internet source" stated that 13grs of Bluedot will work in ABOUT any .30 cal. I've used 15gr in my 30/30 with good results. TAKE THESE FOR WHAT IT'S WORTH and TRY AT YOUR OWN RISK. You want more than that there is plenty out there. Google "Reduced Rifle Loads" and check sites like Cast Boolits. LK

September 17, 2009, 10:10 PM	#9
SL1 Senior Member Join Date: November 8, 2007 Posts: 2,001	With respect to shortening cases by firing pin impact from using reduced loads, I have never noticed it. Reduced loads are not usually real low pressure loads. They typically make moderate pressures with fast powders that have small enough charges that they don't push the bullets so hard once they get a ways down the barrel. So velocity is lower and recoil is lower, but peak pressures are typically enough to stretch the cases back to the bolt face in my guns. SL1

September 19, 2009, 08:32 PM	#12
wncchester Senior Member Join Date: December 1, 2002 Posts: 2,832	I enjoy the low recoil and light muzzle blast of low speed cast bullet loads in my 700 Mtn. Rifle in 30-06. A hard cast 200 gr. bullet over 12.5 gr of PB shotgun powder does very well, very inexpensively. It's great for kids, wives and me wheI'm preparing for deer season! I don't know the speed, never bothered to check, but it will drill straight through a 10" white pine tree at 20 yards so a good back stop for it is as important as any other bullet.

September 20, 2009, 08:55 PM	#13
muzzelblast Member Join Date: August 2, 2008 Location: GA Posts: 16	http://www.gmdr.com/lever/lowveldata.htm http://www.gmdr.com/lever/pistolpowi.htm Here's a couple of links pertaining to reduced loads. Note that the data is for cast bullets - not jacketed. Cast is ideal for working with reduced charges. Warning: Can be habit forming...

September 21, 2009, 12:10 AM	#14
300magman Senior Member Join Date: September 12, 2008 Posts: 714	I have not begun to reload yet, but this subject is of interest to me as well. If I'm loading my 300RUM down to light 30.06 velocities (much like remington power level ammo) I am assuming it is going to be a significantly "reduced load" from what the cartride is capable of. When you load down like that, do you end up having a lot of empty space inside the brass or do you just do it by using different powders, or filling the space in somehow? I guess I really should be getting my hands on a good manual (and I will be) but since the question of reduced loads was possed I thought I would butt in and take a listen.

September 21, 2009, 11:18 AM	#15
AlaskaMike Senior Member Join Date: September 26, 2005 Posts: 943	As most of the others have indicated, you can't just blindly take a listed load and cut the powder charge in half. Some powders behave very differently from others at the lower end of their useful pressure ranges. Also, some are easier than others to ignite. About the only powder that I've specifically read of overpressure problems (also referred to as "SEE", or Secondary Explosive Effect) on reduced loads is IMR 4831. I've read that reduced load overpressure can present itself in chronograph data, indicated by very high standard deviation and extreme spread. Normally with reduced loads I think squibs and delayed ignition ("click-bang") are far, far more prevalent than overpressure though. That said, excellent and safe reduced loads are entirely possible to make--I can list several reduced .30-06 loads right off the top of my head: (all with 150 grain FMJ and standard primers) 10 gr. Unique 15 gr. Blue Dot 20 gr. 2400 22 gr. IMR 4227 (I like a mag primer with this one) 40 gr. IMR 4895 44 gr. H4350 (mag primer with this one as well) All of those are perfectly safe in my M1903, M1903A3, and my Garand as well, although most of those loads require cycling the action by hand. Yes, even the H4350 load is perfectly safe in the Garand, and will not bend the op rod. Obviously if you bump it up to a more typical charge of, say 57 grains, it's a different story. Anybody familiar with shooting cast bullets in bottleneck rifle cartridges knows how to create safe reduced loads. I mention this because we have the Lyman Cast Bullet manual with lots of data for bottleneck rifle cartridges. It would be an excellent starting point for creating reduced loads using jacketed bullets. Also, Ken Waters lists some good reduced loads using both cast and jacketed bullets in "Pet Loads", most of them from other sources like Townsend Whelen, Jack O'Connor and others. In addition to that, I think I remember a very recent (just in the past couple of months) issue of either Rifle or Handloader that had a great article on reduced loads. I specifically recall the author mentioning the flexibility of the .300 WSM in this regard because it could be downloaded to .30-06 performance, or even further to .30-30 performance. Mike

September 21, 2009, 08:38 PM	#16
muzzelblast Member Join Date: August 2, 2008 Location: GA Posts: 16	Regardless of what you may have read, one thing NOT to do with reduced loads in bottle necked cases is to use cereal such as cream of wheat or grits as a filler. With moisture they can clump up in a case neck and do serious damage to gun or shooter. Many loads have been fired using such fillers with no ill effect but it only takes one mishap to hurt yourself. Cast bullet loads with pistol powders do not need a filler of any kind. Personally and from what I've read, I'd be careful using jacketed bullets for pistol powder loads. If you choose to, it would be wise to make sure the bullet exits the bore after each shot and your bullet is not oversized for the bore. Pistol powders reach max pressure quickly and just because a such a load might be a reduced velocity it is not necessarily a reduced pressure load.