Best CQB Sidearm, 1911? Your thoughts.

[IanS]

When you grab that 1911 off the nightstand will it go boom? absolutely, but will it handle the stress of 400 rounds during a day of qualifying without the need to break it down and oiling it? probably not.

Not true. I've freqently went close to 1000 rounds and sometimes beyond with my SA Pro or Baer TRS (both tightly fitted 1911s) without cleaning. Although I'll admit I put a drop of CLP down the rails, barrel hood, and muzzle end of the barrel every 300 rounds or so. If they couldn't take kind of shooting without issue I wouldn't be happy with those pistols. If a 1911 can't do that it simply wasn't made right.

I'll admit though I'm a bit more diligent now and clean them more frequently. But its good to know I have some latitude to slack off with those two.

[PeterGunn]

Quote:
When you grab that 1911 off the nightstand will it go boom? absolutely, but will it handle the stress of 400 rounds during a day of qualifying without the need to break it down and oiling it? probably not.

Not true. I've freqently went close to 1000 rounds and sometimes beyond with my SA Pro or Baer TRS (both tightly fitted 1911s) without cleaning. Although I'll admit I put a drop of CLP down the rails, barrel hood, and barrel every 300 rounds or so. If they couldn't take kind of shooting without issue I wouldn't be happy with those pistols. If a 1911 can't do that it simply wasn't made right.

I'll admit though I'm a bit more diligent now and clean them more frequently. But I its good to know I have some latitude to slack off with those two.

I have witnessed a Para 1911 (Government, .45) blow through a 1000 rounds in less than 10 minutes (world record if I am not mistaken). You can watch the video online. The idea that a semi-custom or custom 1911 cannot handle shooting dirty is bunk. Any good quality firearm should be able to operate in similar fashion.

[tipoc]

Hello fellow gun enthusiasts. I was wondering if I could ask your educated opinion on the effectiveness of the 1911 as a CQB pistol. I love everything about the gun, but when push comes to shove, is the 1911's 7+1 really enough in a CQB situation?

Mostly the question has already be answered. But the 1911 was designed as a close quarters defensive sidearm and has fulfilled that function very well for close to 100 years. So well that virtually every other pistol is compared to it as folks are doing in this thread now.

Is 7+1 really enough? Yes and a spare mag or two can help. You can also ask yourself "What am I using the gun for"? In other words what is it's task? Choosing a gun that's suited to it's task requires some thought. Thought about how you actually live your day to day life and what you need.

Most importantly though is what gun and platform you can handle well, shoot well, that you have confidence in and your abilities with it, and that will be handy when you need it. Caliber choice is a part of this.

There are a lot of good guns available today. Many of those mentioned you can't really go wrong with. If the sa trigger,external safety, C&L carry option, size grip angle looks etc. of the 1911 appeal to you and you prefer it above others for carry...than go for that.

The 1911 is not for everyone. In my opinion it requires more dedication than the da/sa or dao guns to learn it well and handle it safely.

Personally it's the only semi auto platform I use. When I need or want more rounds the BHP (or one of CZ's products) fit the bill. I can also have 10+1 rounds of 38 Super on tap. The 1911 is available in 9mm, 40 S&W, 50 G.I., 10 mm, 9x23 and a number of other calibers as well. It comes in a variety of sizes and weights to fit many needs.

tipoc

[KyJim]

The 1911 began life having to pass a torture test:

A torture test was conducted, on March 3rd, 1911. The test consisted of having each gun fire 6000 rounds. One hundred shots would be fired and the pistol would be allowed to cool for 5 minutes. After every 1000 rounds, the pistol would be cleaned and oiled. After firing those 6000 rounds, the pistol would be tested with deformed cartridges, some seated too deeply, some not seated enough, etc. The gun would then be rusted in acid or submerged in sand and mud and some more tests would then be conducted.

Browning's pistols passed the whole test series with flying colors. It was the first firearm to undergo such a test, firing continuously 6000 cartridges, a record broken only in 1917 when Browning's recoil-operated machine gun fired a 40000 rounds test.

http://www.m1911.org/full_history.htm

You can't blame the design when some manufacturers drop the ball. Imagine what we would have if Glock's patents expired and everybody started making copies, but with variations. No, wait. I don't want to even think about a dozen companies making Glocks.

[vox rationis]

Apropos 1911 torture tests, here's an article (pdf) of a torture test on modern 1911's.

1911 Torture test

They did very well.

[RsqVet]

Ky ---

Already happening... CCF race frames makes a metal "glock" frame and one can put a caspian or another maker's slide on it, KKM barrel, misc. small parts and have a no-glock glock.

[KyJim]

SonOfVT - Fun article to read.

RsqVet -

I'll be having nightmares tonight.

[vox rationis]

Yeah I dug that article up while I was researching 1911's before I got my Wilson CQB..

(And you know what, I'd be interested in getting an aluminum CCF race frame for my G17! I think they even come with the Cominolli safety as an option, which after putting in a 3lb trigger, I'd be interested in getting. Oh oh now that's sure to get the "True Glocker" Cult's collective panties in a bunch! )

[nate45]

I drew from 5 yards and shot this group in 2.31 seconds so my Sig STX would probably work well for CQB.

El Paso saddlery mag carrier and yaqui slide. Wilson combat mags.

[lux_aeternae]

Addressing nate45 - that is ridiculously fast IMHO.

[nate45]

that is ridiculously fast IMHO

I sometimes I do it in less than 2 sometimes over little 3 seconds. I could of taken a pic of the timer readout at the range, but if you don't believe me you would just think faked it. All I can tell you is I drew and fired those 8 shots in 2.31 seconds. 30+ years of handgun practice and 24+ years shooting the 1911 paid off, of course now at 44 I'm slower than I was in my 20s.

[David Armstrong]

Huh?? I'd hazard a guess that almost as many FOOLS hate the 1911 as love it.
Fixed it for you.

Well, I try not to name-call unless someone else starts it, but I would tend to agree. Both sides, the lovers and the haters, are fairly foolish. The 1911 was a nice design in its day. Now, it is somewhat dated and doesn't seem to have some of the reliability and other factors that we take for granted. Of course, that gives lots of business to the semi-custom makers like Kimber.

[Dangerwing]

Just an FYI for everyone - I spent a year and half in Iraq. I was NOT in any kind of special forces unit (just the good 'ol 101st ) But I did eat chow, PT, and just hang out with the members of CJTF7. (Combined Joint Task Force 7 - a mix of Delta, SEALs, PJ's, Greenhats, and CIA) I never once saw a 1911. Not saying its a bad gun - history proves its greatness. I did see a few HK Socoms, a few Glocks, but mostly just the standard issue Beretta M9 (92F) As has been mentioned a few times in this thread, what maters in not the gun in your hand, its whether or not you hit your target before your target hits you.

Most Spec. Ops guys are good enough with a pistol that they could go in with a Seecamp or PPK and still win, so what they carry doesn't really prove or disprove much of anything.

[IanS]

As has been mentioned a few times in this thread, what maters in not the gun in your hand, its whether or not you hit your target before your target hits you.

Oh no. It still won't stop people from splitting those hairs and picking over every little minutaie of difference.

[SAC45]

I think that the group has gotten way off track from the original question. YES, the 1911 platform is more than acceptable for CQB---home, police, SWAT, military. Much like deaths "due to firearms", the gun itself is perfectly capable. The real question is whether the user is. Hits count and misses don't. A 22 in the heart beats a 50 in the toe pretty much every time. Magazine capacity becomes more important DURING the fight. If you've hit your targets with a 1911 and the number of targets are few, great. If there is one target and you just blew through a 16rd mag of 9mm and didn't hit dung....not so good. The "thing" about the 1911 is that, much like Glock heralded their claim in the 80's, the trigger pull of a 1911 is the same every time. It is easy, light, and, unlike other triggers; straight..not bound to an arcing toggle motion. The grip angle is very much geared toward the natural angle of the hand and wrist. The bore sits low, limiting recoil. It's tough. However, due to mechanics and physical set up, practice and instruction are needed a little more than say for a 6 shot revolver. Many of us in LE call the Glock the "idiot gun". It's simple and basic to the point where even with poor instruction, someone can operate it. Though that's not a guarantee that they'll operate it well. That doesn't mean it's superior, regardless of the numbers of sales. Reliability? I'll take Sig or HK any day in that department. If Glocks were selling for $800, no one would use them. I'm not saying their bad, their not. Their just not wearing sandals and preaching the new testament. A good .357 revolver is a great CQB weapon, if you know how to use it.

No sense in comparing SEALS or even LE to the individual. They are not the same. CQB to a SEAL is different than to a SWAT'er, which is different to the standard LEO, which is different to the homeowner. Military testing may not yield positive police or civilian results. Its apples and oranges.

The track record for the 1911 is proven. Whether the individual is or not is the question.

[WESHOOT2]

Regardless, I stand by my writings.


(And reading before rebutting would seem, to me, to make more sense; I wrote "Capacity matters most to those who miss most".
Please).

[IdahoG36]

Best CQB Sidearm, 1911? Your thoughts.

If I was in the business of "whacking Tangos", I wouldn't mind a 1911. It would be relegated to back up duty anyways, so the "higher magazine capacity" argument kind of goes out the window. You would most likely be using your MP5 or M4.
I would want a higher end 1911 with a rail, like a Springfield Custom or a Wilson Combat. Reliability would be a must in a CQB handgun, so I would choose one of those two due to their reputations and my own experience with WC.
These would be my top two choices-

#1 choice- Wilson Combat CQB LE


#2 choice- Springfield LW Champion Operator

[jay21401]

"Capacity is valued most by those who miss most"

"If you can't get things taken care of with the first 7 or 8 rounds what makes you think another 7 or 8 is going to help"

So I suppose these people never carry a spare mag? or
I suppose they think that cops should never need a spare mag or any mag that holds more than 8 rounds?

Hell for that matter, in their view there is no need for anything other than a revolver right?. I mean why even carry a semi auto then, right?

I've been in my share of sticky situations and it seems that the people intent on doing you harm are ALMOST NEVER alone. If contemplating fantasies of you facing the lone gunman like in a western then you have no idea how these punk/gang types or street urchins operate. Most of them would never date to bother you in most cases unless they had their "boys" backing them up.

Where do the people who make these statements come from? Do they actually ever think about things or just repeat or rephrase the same old statements over and over. I'm glad there are other thoughtful people online that balance these guys out with real insightful comments.

Sorry for the rant but statement like "Capacity is valued most by those who miss most" are just plain ignorant.

[ClydeFrog]

I did not read over all the posts from other members yet but I did go over your topic.

In general, if you are an armed citizen or work in a non-sworn/non public service LE/security position, I'd suggest a well made DA only, hammer fired semi auto pistol like the Beretta D/C PX4, SIG P226R/P229R DAK, Hk P2000/USP(lem).
These firearms are in use by major LE agencies(US Border Patrol, ICE, NCIS, etc). They offer safe use and by design can avoid bogus or false claims of a AD(accident) or reckless conduct(cocking a pistol hammer, light trigger pull) in a real CQB or critical event.
1911a1 pistols have merit but unless you have the skill level/training & can support your actions later on, a DA only pistol is a much better pick.

Clyde
ps: The US Army Delta Force aka; SFOD-1) was disbanded by SECDEF Donald Rumsfeld. The highly elite spec ops unit is now called CAG(combat applications group). The CAG falls under the direct command of the US DoD(Defense Dept).

[tipoc]

The thread is over two years old. I suppose no newer thread is available to start an argument with a fella about?

tipoc

[orionengnr]

Yet another case of thread necrophelia by a new poster.

If you can't come up with something original to post, try reading for a while.

[riverwalker76]

I drew from 5 yards and shot this group in 2.31 seconds so my Sig STX would probably work well for CQB.

It's a totally different scenario when you are working in 'Condition Black'.

That's the area of awareness that you reach AFTER your heart rate reaches 175 bpm. Totally useless in a CQB situation.


On another note. A lot of SOCOM ops are carrying an HK USP45, Springfield XD 45 Tactical, or Beretta M9A1. I have NEVER seen a classic Colt 1911 style sidearm in combat. Put a can on the barrrel of a 1911 and you'd be carrying around enough hardware to beat them to death.

I'll give you a little excercise to try ....

Try flicking your wrist from side to side while holding your 1911! You feel that weight and over travel? That's a NO GO.

It's all about high speed ... low drag

Celer Silens Mortalis

[Rinspeed]

Where do the people who make these statements come from? Do they actually ever think about things or just repeat or rephrase the same old statements over and over. I'm glad there are other thoughtful people online that balance these guys out with real insightful comments.

Tell you what, seeing you are so smart and one of the quotes you posted was mine please let us simpletons in on some data where any modern day CCW holder was gunned down, by all these zombies, because they ran out of ammo.

[Chindo18Z]

I'm feeling warmed up for a necrotopic. Sometimes the best pizza is cold pizza that's been in the fridge for a day or so...

Try flicking your wrist from side to side while holding your 1911! You feel that weight and over travel? That's a NO GO.

Hmmnn...I just did. Why is it a no go? Seems to handle the same as any other issued duty pistol. I actually like slightly muzzle heavy pistols for better control in the vertical plane (recoil management and re-acquiring sight picture). Some people prefer the slightly butt heavy feel of a Glock 19. Ford vs Chevy I suppose. I've generally observed that folks shoot more accurately under stress (training or real) when equipped with pistols having longer sight radius and full-sized weight than those equipped with pistols having short sight radius, short barrels, and light weight.

The trend to lighter and compact weapons is a function of portability vs. absolute combat accuracy. It's easier to roll with a Glock 19 than a 1911 when you are fully kitted up for war (or CCW). On the other hand, the 1911 is a bit more combat accurate and offers a caliber improvement (if that's important to you). Then again, the Glock 19 is good enough, gets the job done, and offers higher capacity (which I happen to think is also an important advantage).

I have NEVER seen a classic Colt 1911 style sidearm in combat.

I'm wearing a military issued 1911A1 as I type this. In Iraq. So are all the members of several ODAs currently here. Actually a pretty common weapon choice for deployed teams.

I'm reasonably certain that original G.I. issue 1911s will see combat duty with American military forces well past the 100 years in-service mark. I wouldn't make the same bet for the Beretta M9.

1911? Best CQB pistol? A subjective answer would be...maybe.

Is the 1911 in the running for such a designation? Definitely. The list of proven and viable competitors for the title is very short.

[riverwalker76]

Well ... let's put it out there so everyone can understand what I REALLY mean.

You might catch the Army carrying them, but I don't know of any Marine that will, would, or has.

Dry enough for you?

Try waving that big 1911 at Haji when you're kickin' doors. Then you'll see what I mean. As for those who think you can shoot better under stress ..... load up your tool of choice....... sprint 200 yds ... stop and immediately pop off a few mags without taking a break. Then you will see what I mean. That's STILL not close to Condition Black, but at least your heart rate is up.

For those of you who are curious about what I'm talking about .... I'll explain it best I can.



Condition Red
Specific Real Threat

In Red, your observations are such that there is no doubt that the threat is real and your life, or lives of loved ones, is in real and immedate danger. You have taken action to avoid the threat, when it first appeared, and formulated a plan of action, and are now carrying it out. You have also drawn a "line in the sand" or a "mental trigger" that will determine when you will deliver your defensive response.

When the line is crossed, you WILL deliver your defensive response, as by now your response has been determined, and the plan has been made. There is no hesitation, as your response is instantaneous.



Condition Black
Line in the Sand Has Been Crossed.

Simply put, this is where you deal with the threat. At this point you survival depends on the level of training that you have, and your ability to control your mind.

This is where the Combat Mindset comes into play.

Combat Mindset

This quite simply, is the state of mind that replaces fear, in a life or death situation, with the knowledge that you have trained for this, expected it to happen at some time, and are ready, able, and willing to handle it.

You are at a level that you are not allowing fear, doubt, astonishment, or surprise to enter your mind. You have the confidence, through training, to handle the situation.

You do not think of fear or being killed, you think of what you know will get you through, and that is the front sight, and your training.