Does anyone out their share a love for fine doubles? Purdey, etc.

Alex Johnson · March 27, 2000, 08:57 PM

I was just wondering how many of you love and admire the beauty and handling of a fine double. What's your favorite?

2shots · March 27, 2000, 10:04 PM

Alex, As much as I'd love to own a Purdey, Boss of Holland, in that order, all I can afford are lower end Berettas. But I recently shot sporting clays with my latest acquisition, a Midland, round body, back action 12-bore hammergun with 30'' barrels. Made around 1890 but with modern dimensions. It was a lot of fun. Nothing equals the grace of an English double, not even the Italian guns, though they are are stronger.

K80Geoff · March 29, 2000, 08:19 PM

Oh, I'm in shock, somebody on this board asking about REAL shotguns for a change

Unfortunately, I am not able to own a nice British "Best Gun" at this time, still paying for the K 20. Someday hopefully.

I love the look and feel of quality sidelocks, some of the Spanish copies are nice, but if I ever get a British gun it will probably be a boxlock.

Made the mistake of visiting the vintage cup at Orvis Sandanona last year, had to lock my Credit cards in the car before I went in

Still dreaming...

Geoff Ross

Dave McC · March 29, 2000, 08:29 PM

Last non 870 shotgun I had was a game gun, made in St Etienne by a company called Didier.

This was a boxlock 12 ga, with an articulated trigger,swamped rib,magnificient wood, straight grip,checkered butt,etc, weighing in at 5 lbs, 5 oz. Built in 1919 for someone shorter than I but round faced and barrel chested.

I had the chokes opened to 8 points of constriction in one bbl and 20 in the other. The few times I used it on birds, it made me look like a better shot than I am, including a double on woodcock, my very first.

Anyone ever hear of this brand?

TaxPhd · March 29, 2000, 08:46 PM

Absolutely!!

While a British best would be wonderful, finances dictate otherwise, and so my interest is in the "Spanish Best" guns, with my favorite being those by Pedro Arrizabalaga.

I once shot an Arrizabalaga along with a Holland & Holland and a William Evans, and the Spanish gun was by far my favorite. It was that intangible "feel" that can't really be described, only appreciated.

I plan on a trip to Europe next year with my wife, and a trip to Eibar to have a gun made to order is a must do.

Alex Johnson · March 30, 2000, 08:37 PM

Interesting responses. I too like the fine English doubles, but my finances don't currently allow me the freedom to live out my dreams. I have been looking more and more at some of the better quality, condition, damascus guns on the market. These seem to be available at very reasonable prices considering, their quality, and I'm not scared of black powder loads in a quality damascus gun. Nice to hear from you all.

dZ · March 30, 2000, 09:07 PM

My dad collects AH Fox & Parker doubles
He shoots 'em too!

dZ

K80Geoff · March 31, 2000, 08:08 AM

Oooooh! Nice DZ. Hope your old man has you in the will

Geoff Ross

dZ · March 31, 2000, 02:17 PM

Dad bought that fox in 1968 for 350 bucks!

yep! on our last hunt he said well your brother doesn't seem to have much interest in shotguns...

dZ

Alex Johnson · April 1, 2000, 10:41 AM

DZ I'd stay on your dad's good side and keep on persuading your brother that rifles are far more interesting than shotguns.

Solitar · April 2, 2000, 12:35 PM

I've a 32" full/full Spanish 10gauge double made for Richland Arms! Granted that it's not a several-thousand dollar classic, but I like it anyway. Can anyone tell me how I could tell when it was made. The "Bluebook" says the model 711 magnum SxS was made from 1963 to 1985. On the underside of the barrels there is 10//89 (along with other various characters, numbers, etc. Maybe I've something different than what I think I have.

Shooting it is fun but expensive. Most of the time it's hanging behind my store counter as a "conversation piece". People will admire it and some will ask if it's for sale. "Nope, I like it too much." Kids sometimes ask "What's it for?". Answer: "shoplifters". Their eyes bug out and their jaws drop! I once had a greenhorn ask about that ".22 up there". Huh!?!? Never ceases to amaze me how gun-ignorant some folks are. Guess that's why gun laws are so easy to sell.

2shots · April 2, 2000, 03:11 PM

Solitar,
Post what you see on the barrel flats, especially any single letters and I'll try to tell you when it was built.

Solitar · April 2, 2000, 04:30 PM

2shots,
Thanks for the offer. There are all sorts of squigglys and odd design characters, but here are some.
{L.G} with an engraved bracket below too
11504
L1
10//89
2 with crossed guns behind it
1000 KGS
24703MO5 (the MO5 could be MOS but is smaller letters like a superscript over what could be a 3 though the bottom right part of the upper half of the 3 is missing.
There are three "shields":
one with what looks to be a BP over an oblong o, another with an X in what looks to be knight's shield and helmet, and the other with what could be CN in it.
On the round part of the barrels we have
SGS
19 4 followed by that odd X
and the choke dimensions 18.6 and 19.7

Solitar · April 2, 2000, 04:33 PM

I wonder if some of those shields are "signatures" of the craftsmen who helped make the gun.

2shots · April 2, 2000, 07:53 PM

Solitar,
Your gun was built in 1966. 10/89 is gauge and length of chambers in millimeters. Crosses are nitro proof marks. If you desire, place a piece of paper on the marks, trace them and send them to me at your convenience and I may be able to tell you more. [email protected].

Solitar · April 19, 2000, 03:11 PM

2shots and others here
Thanks for not giving me a hard time for having or posting about a "cheap Spanish double". I didn't realize the attitude that some double owners have toward those shotguns. But I do now after reading Double Gun BBS - Question & Answer Open Forum
http://www.gunshop.com/HyperNews/get.cgi/gunshop.html

Nevertheless, there are some holdouts over there who speak of that taboo subject and who've posted some links to pages where the proof and manufacturers marks are displayed.
http://web.jet.es/apraiz/b_punzones.html

huntsman · April 19, 2000, 08:04 PM

solitar, don't be ashamed of you spanish double, all sxs men know that any double is better than a pump. (just kidding

)

------------------
what doesn't kill me only makes me stronger

Big Bunny · April 20, 2000, 12:46 AM

The Beretta 64 -64ES - 64ES series are nice guns which point well, have magnificent wood and lovely engraving ...but they are U/O, they have a good feel and also very strong.

AYA(spanish) is also good in SXS and very popular in UK for game drives and pest shooting.

London or Birmingham (British) guns are difficult to find and expensive when you do, but assuming the firm that made them is still in existence the after sales service is superb!!

------------------
***Big Bunny***

huntsman · April 20, 2000, 11:10 PM

big bunny, are you from across the pond ? (uk-europe) If so would you say more sxs and o/u's are lower grade shooters.I've always wondered if there are more japanese spanish and italian guns being shot over there ,then the famous english game guns.

------------------
what doesn't kill me only makes me stronger

Bennett Richards · April 23, 2000, 12:55 AM

I know a fellow that paid $30,000 for a 1920's Purdey 20G double that had been owned by an English preacher. Was MINT with all of the original accessories... These weapons are fine works of art... beautiful to behold and handle.. I love the feel and look of real old-world craftsmanship. Problem is that collecting these weapons is only for the VERY rich. A great old English gun can easily run $100,000 these days. Nice to look at and admire... but even if I were very rich, which I am not I would be hard pressed to take a weapon like that into the field.

Ben

El Chimango Pete · April 24, 2000, 08:03 PM

Those old doubles - British and others - are works of art of a very special kind. Of course you can't help loving them: They are in a class with great paintings, sculptures, jewelry and rare and special timepieces. The very fortunate own them, but its great just knowing they are there.

Sad story on the other hand: My Old Man owned a Westley Richards double 12. He inherited of an old comrade in arms... i remember as a kid our shooting with him, walking the fields behind his dog raising partridge. Alas his house was burgled and it was taken, a few years before he died and I've always wondered if there isn't a beautifully engraved old 'sawn off lupara' in the hands of some goblin out there - or the goons realized its value and it found a proper owner - whatever his or her morals.
Peter Knight

carlcroy · April 26, 2001, 07:43 AM

I am wondering why this interesting topic has only so few replys.

I am in the lucky position, that my father gave me a 12 gauche Purdey (build in 1901) when I was a teen.

Since then my shooting/hunting obsession has increasd to an extend which is risking my livelihood. I shoot approx. 3000 birds/year in Austria,GB,Hungary,Germany and Spain.

Some time ago I added a used matching pair of 12 gauche Arrizabalgas which I found in Madrid.

The Purdey is long barreld (30") and has tight chokes so I use it mostly for ducks and wild geese whereas the Arrizas with wider chokes and very short barrls (26") are good for dove, low phesants and partirdge. In terms of balance and workmanship the Purdey and Arrizas are very similar.

I use all of them really hard and they stand also the travel (in proper cases) very well. They are serviced on a 5 year basis at a specialized gun smith and are absolutly reliable.

Since I was given the Purdey 20 years ago, the value of the gun increase far above the increase of cost of living.

For trap/skeet I also own a O/U Beretta which I rarely use. The Arrizas are much more fun for that purpose and as efficent.

Mayby my reply can revive this topic.

Doc Hudson · April 26, 2001, 08:37 AM

Because it seems to me that we double gun users are a dying breed. In a few generations people will have forgotten the joy of using a good sxs double for shooting birds, both clay and feathered.

The Purdey's, and Hollands, and Boss shotguns are beyond my price range. But from time to time I do get a chance to fondle and dream when I visit Thad Scott's Fine Guns, of course then I have to go home and cry because I had to leave them behind.

I currently own a Fox and a LeFever, both 12 gauge and both far older than I am. Hopefully in the next few years, a good Antonio Zoli or an AyA will become affordable.

BTW, for elegance, smoothness of swing, and sheer pleasure, no other shotgun even approaches the sxs double. Not joking, jut my rock solid IOFA opinion. YMMV

Doc Hudson

PJR · April 26, 2001, 12:25 PM

Doc:

Repeaters have competed against doubles for over a hundred years and yet the double continues to occupy a niche among hunters. Their relative cost makes them a less accessible item for many hunters but among those who appreciate the unique qualities of a side-by-side no other gun will do.

There are two sxs from Spain in my gun cabinet and they are both fine, reliable hunting firearms. Not in the class of a Purdey but good solid value for the money.

I also own over/unders, a semi and a pump but for upland hunting the sxs is my gun of choice.

Paul

Dave McC · April 26, 2001, 02:06 PM

I think the low point for doubles was around the 50s. Firepower was king, and a lot of ex GIs didn't mind an 8 lb shotgun that handled like a Garand. Now, the better handling and esthetics are appealing to folks who figure that 2 shots on a covey rise is enough.

I note than decent used SXSs do not stay long on the racks when they hit the gun shops. Many shop employees have lists of people to call if a specific style and make gun shows up.

I like doubles, it's just that I'm on a 870 sized budget.

April 26, 2001, 08:37 AM	#23
Doc Hudson Senior Member Join Date: January 29, 2001 Location: Mississippi Delta Posts: 635	re: so few replys Because it seems to me that we double gun users are a dying breed. In a few generations people will have forgotten the joy of using a good sxs double for shooting birds, both clay and feathered. The Purdey's, and Hollands, and Boss shotguns are beyond my price range. But from time to time I do get a chance to fondle and dream when I visit Thad Scott's Fine Guns, of course then I have to go home and cry because I had to leave them behind. I currently own a Fox and a LeFever, both 12 gauge and both far older than I am. Hopefully in the next few years, a good Antonio Zoli or an AyA will become affordable. BTW, for elegance, smoothness of swing, and sheer pleasure, no other shotgun even approaches the sxs double. Not joking, jut my rock solid IOFA opinion. YMMV Doc Hudson

March 27, 2000, 08:57 PM	#1
Alex Johnson Senior Member Join Date: February 16, 2000 Location: Grand Forks, ND Posts: 812	I was just wondering how many of you love and admire the beauty and handling of a fine double. What's your favorite?

March 27, 2000, 10:04 PM	#2
2shots Senior Member Join Date: October 6, 1999 Posts: 183	Alex, As much as I'd love to own a Purdey, Boss of Holland, in that order, all I can afford are lower end Berettas. But I recently shot sporting clays with my latest acquisition, a Midland, round body, back action 12-bore hammergun with 30'' barrels. Made around 1890 but with modern dimensions. It was a lot of fun. Nothing equals the grace of an English double, not even the Italian guns, though they are are stronger.

March 29, 2000, 08:19 PM	#3
K80Geoff Senior Member Join Date: December 20, 1998 Location: NE Pennsylvania Posts: 3,639	Oh, I'm in shock, somebody on this board asking about REAL shotguns for a change Unfortunately, I am not able to own a nice British "Best Gun" at this time, still paying for the K 20. Someday hopefully. I love the look and feel of quality sidelocks, some of the Spanish copies are nice, but if I ever get a British gun it will probably be a boxlock. Made the mistake of visiting the vintage cup at Orvis Sandanona last year, had to lock my Credit cards in the car before I went in Still dreaming... Geoff Ross

March 29, 2000, 08:29 PM	#4
Dave McC Staff In Memoriam Join Date: October 13, 1999 Location: Columbia, Md, USA Posts: 8,811	Last non 870 shotgun I had was a game gun, made in St Etienne by a company called Didier. This was a boxlock 12 ga, with an articulated trigger,swamped rib,magnificient wood, straight grip,checkered butt,etc, weighing in at 5 lbs, 5 oz. Built in 1919 for someone shorter than I but round faced and barrel chested. I had the chokes opened to 8 points of constriction in one bbl and 20 in the other. The few times I used it on birds, it made me look like a better shot than I am, including a double on woodcock, my very first. Anyone ever hear of this brand?

March 29, 2000, 08:46 PM	#5
TaxPhd Senior Member Join Date: October 29, 1998 Location: Colorado Posts: 534	Absolutely!! While a British best would be wonderful, finances dictate otherwise, and so my interest is in the "Spanish Best" guns, with my favorite being those by Pedro Arrizabalaga. I once shot an Arrizabalaga along with a Holland & Holland and a William Evans, and the Spanish gun was by far my favorite. It was that intangible "feel" that can't really be described, only appreciated. I plan on a trip to Europe next year with my wife, and a trip to Eibar to have a gun made to order is a must do.

March 30, 2000, 08:37 PM	#6
Alex Johnson Senior Member Join Date: February 16, 2000 Location: Grand Forks, ND Posts: 812	Interesting responses. I too like the fine English doubles, but my finances don't currently allow me the freedom to live out my dreams. I have been looking more and more at some of the better quality, condition, damascus guns on the market. These seem to be available at very reasonable prices considering, their quality, and I'm not scared of black powder loads in a quality damascus gun. Nice to hear from you all.

March 30, 2000, 09:07 PM	#7
dZ Senior Member Join Date: May 31, 1999 Location: Exiled, Fetid Swamp, DC Posts: 7,548	My dad collects AH Fox & Parker doubles He shoots 'em too! dZ

March 31, 2000, 08:08 AM	#8
K80Geoff Senior Member Join Date: December 20, 1998 Location: NE Pennsylvania Posts: 3,639	Oooooh! Nice DZ. Hope your old man has you in the will Geoff Ross

March 31, 2000, 02:17 PM	#9
dZ Senior Member Join Date: May 31, 1999 Location: Exiled, Fetid Swamp, DC Posts: 7,548	Dad bought that fox in 1968 for 350 bucks! yep! on our last hunt he said well your brother doesn't seem to have much interest in shotguns... dZ

April 1, 2000, 10:41 AM	#10
Alex Johnson Senior Member Join Date: February 16, 2000 Location: Grand Forks, ND Posts: 812	DZ I'd stay on your dad's good side and keep on persuading your brother that rifles are far more interesting than shotguns.

April 2, 2000, 12:35 PM	#11
Solitar Senior Member Join Date: February 15, 2000 Location: Solitary Posts: 717	I've a 32" full/full Spanish 10gauge double made for Richland Arms! Granted that it's not a several-thousand dollar classic, but I like it anyway. Can anyone tell me how I could tell when it was made. The "Bluebook" says the model 711 magnum SxS was made from 1963 to 1985. On the underside of the barrels there is 10//89 (along with other various characters, numbers, etc. Maybe I've something different than what I think I have. Shooting it is fun but expensive. Most of the time it's hanging behind my store counter as a "conversation piece". People will admire it and some will ask if it's for sale. "Nope, I like it too much." Kids sometimes ask "What's it for?". Answer: "shoplifters". Their eyes bug out and their jaws drop! I once had a greenhorn ask about that ".22 up there". Huh!?!? Never ceases to amaze me how gun-ignorant some folks are. Guess that's why gun laws are so easy to sell.

April 2, 2000, 03:11 PM	#12
2shots Senior Member Join Date: October 6, 1999 Posts: 183	Solitar, Post what you see on the barrel flats, especially any single letters and I'll try to tell you when it was built.

April 2, 2000, 04:30 PM	#13
Solitar Senior Member Join Date: February 15, 2000 Location: Solitary Posts: 717	2shots, Thanks for the offer. There are all sorts of squigglys and odd design characters, but here are some. {L.G} with an engraved bracket below too 11504 L1 10//89 2 with crossed guns behind it 1000 KGS 24703MO5 (the MO5 could be MOS but is smaller letters like a superscript over what could be a 3 though the bottom right part of the upper half of the 3 is missing. There are three "shields": one with what looks to be a BP over an oblong o, another with an X in what looks to be knight's shield and helmet, and the other with what could be CN in it. On the round part of the barrels we have SGS 19 4 followed by that odd X and the choke dimensions 18.6 and 19.7

April 2, 2000, 04:33 PM	#14
Solitar Senior Member Join Date: February 15, 2000 Location: Solitary Posts: 717	I wonder if some of those shields are "signatures" of the craftsmen who helped make the gun.

April 2, 2000, 07:53 PM	#15
2shots Senior Member Join Date: October 6, 1999 Posts: 183	Solitar, Your gun was built in 1966. 10/89 is gauge and length of chambers in millimeters. Crosses are nitro proof marks. If you desire, place a piece of paper on the marks, trace them and send them to me at your convenience and I may be able to tell you more. [email protected].

April 19, 2000, 03:11 PM	#16
Solitar Senior Member Join Date: February 15, 2000 Location: Solitary Posts: 717	2shots and others here Thanks for not giving me a hard time for having or posting about a "cheap Spanish double". I didn't realize the attitude that some double owners have toward those shotguns. But I do now after reading Double Gun BBS - Question & Answer Open Forum http://www.gunshop.com/HyperNews/get.cgi/gunshop.html Nevertheless, there are some holdouts over there who speak of that taboo subject and who've posted some links to pages where the proof and manufacturers marks are displayed. http://web.jet.es/apraiz/b_punzones.html

April 19, 2000, 08:04 PM	#17
huntsman Senior Member Join Date: March 7, 2000 Location: ohio Posts: 121	solitar, don't be ashamed of you spanish double, all sxs men know that any double is better than a pump. (just kidding ) ------------------ what doesn't kill me only makes me stronger

April 20, 2000, 12:46 AM	#18
Big Bunny Senior Member Join Date: August 9, 1999 Location: New South Wales - Australia Posts: 605	The Beretta 64 -64ES - 64ES series are nice guns which point well, have magnificent wood and lovely engraving ...but they are U/O, they have a good feel and also very strong. AYA(spanish) is also good in SXS and very popular in UK for game drives and pest shooting. London or Birmingham (British) guns are difficult to find and expensive when you do, but assuming the firm that made them is still in existence the after sales service is superb!! ------------------ *Big Bunny*

April 20, 2000, 11:10 PM	#19
huntsman Senior Member Join Date: March 7, 2000 Location: ohio Posts: 121	big bunny, are you from across the pond ? (uk-europe) If so would you say more sxs and o/u's are lower grade shooters.I've always wondered if there are more japanese spanish and italian guns being shot over there ,then the famous english game guns. ------------------ what doesn't kill me only makes me stronger

April 23, 2000, 12:55 AM	#20
Bennett Richards Senior Member Join Date: November 14, 1998 Location: Carlsbad, CA USA Posts: 356	I know a fellow that paid $30,000 for a 1920's Purdey 20G double that had been owned by an English preacher. Was MINT with all of the original accessories... These weapons are fine works of art... beautiful to behold and handle.. I love the feel and look of real old-world craftsmanship. Problem is that collecting these weapons is only for the VERY rich. A great old English gun can easily run $100,000 these days. Nice to look at and admire... but even if I were very rich, which I am not I would be hard pressed to take a weapon like that into the field. Ben

April 24, 2000, 08:03 PM	#21
El Chimango Pete Senior Member Join Date: January 11, 1999 Location: Sierras de Cordoba - Argentina Posts: 352	Those old doubles - British and others - are works of art of a very special kind. Of course you can't help loving them: They are in a class with great paintings, sculptures, jewelry and rare and special timepieces. The very fortunate own them, but its great just knowing they are there. Sad story on the other hand: My Old Man owned a Westley Richards double 12. He inherited of an old comrade in arms... i remember as a kid our shooting with him, walking the fields behind his dog raising partridge. Alas his house was burgled and it was taken, a few years before he died and I've always wondered if there isn't a beautifully engraved old 'sawn off lupara' in the hands of some goblin out there - or the goons realized its value and it found a proper owner - whatever his or her morals. Peter Knight

April 26, 2001, 07:43 AM	#22
carlcroy Junior Member Join Date: April 25, 2001 Location: Austria/Europe Posts: 3	I am wondering why this interesting topic has only so few replys. I am in the lucky position, that my father gave me a 12 gauche Purdey (build in 1901) when I was a teen. Since then my shooting/hunting obsession has increasd to an extend which is risking my livelihood. I shoot approx. 3000 birds/year in Austria,GB,Hungary,Germany and Spain. Some time ago I added a used matching pair of 12 gauche Arrizabalgas which I found in Madrid. The Purdey is long barreld (30") and has tight chokes so I use it mostly for ducks and wild geese whereas the Arrizas with wider chokes and very short barrls (26") are good for dove, low phesants and partirdge. In terms of balance and workmanship the Purdey and Arrizas are very similar. I use all of them really hard and they stand also the travel (in proper cases) very well. They are serviced on a 5 year basis at a specialized gun smith and are absolutly reliable. Since I was given the Purdey 20 years ago, the value of the gun increase far above the increase of cost of living. For trap/skeet I also own a O/U Beretta which I rarely use. The Arrizas are much more fun for that purpose and as efficent. Mayby my reply can revive this topic.

April 26, 2001, 12:25 PM	#24
PJR Senior Member Join Date: May 31, 2000 Posts: 1,127	Doc: Repeaters have competed against doubles for over a hundred years and yet the double continues to occupy a niche among hunters. Their relative cost makes them a less accessible item for many hunters but among those who appreciate the unique qualities of a side-by-side no other gun will do. There are two sxs from Spain in my gun cabinet and they are both fine, reliable hunting firearms. Not in the class of a Purdey but good solid value for the money. I also own over/unders, a semi and a pump but for upland hunting the sxs is my gun of choice. Paul

April 26, 2001, 02:06 PM	#25
Dave McC Staff In Memoriam Join Date: October 13, 1999 Location: Columbia, Md, USA Posts: 8,811	I think the low point for doubles was around the 50s. Firepower was king, and a lot of ex GIs didn't mind an 8 lb shotgun that handled like a Garand. Now, the better handling and esthetics are appealing to folks who figure that 2 shots on a covey rise is enough. I note than decent used SXSs do not stay long on the racks when they hit the gun shops. Many shop employees have lists of people to call if a specific style and make gun shows up. I like doubles, it's just that I'm on a 870 sized budget.