357 Sig... WHY isn't this round more popular?

[ClydeFrog]

I've been around firearms & the shooting sports industry since the early 1980s. I also served four years on active duty in the US armed forces.

I'd opine that the main reasons why the .357sig didn't really take off or gain support was due to these factors;
SIG Sauer; The high end firm designed the round to work like a semi auto .357magnum. It pushed the new pistol round for it's own models(P229, P226, etc) but it couldn't really compete with the S&W .40 which came out to wide support in 1990.
US law enforcement/armed citizens; The .357sig round started off at the end of the mid size/high power level pistol caliber race. Several mid size rounds like the 9x23, the .41AE, the .356TSW etc came & went. Many PDs & armed citizens either "moved up" to a .45acp or picked the new .40S&W.
Firearm selection: Few US gun makers really warmed up to the .357sig other than SIG Sauer. Small firms may have a few models but the larger outfits like Glock or S&W just stock them to keep agency sales happy or for the small # of public sector .357sig shooters to purchase.
I like the .357sig & would carry a .357sig semi auto on or off duty but I can see how/why the .40 & .45acp are more popular.

Clyde

[carguychris]

c) Few loading issues. The neck-down design prevents most loading issues.

How do you figure?

The forum comments I've read about reloading .357Sig seem to fall into 2 camps: people who say it's a PITA due to problems seating bullets in the bottleneck cases, and others who argue that this is a non-issue and it's no more difficult to handload than a straight-walled pistol cartridge.

I think this is the first time I've seen someone imply that .357Sig is actually easier. Please elaborate.

[TunnelRat]

I think this is the first time I've seen someone imply that .357Sig is actually easier. Please elaborate.

I think he meant loading into the chamber of a gun...

[Technosavant]

The forum comments I've read about reloading .357Sig

I would think that when he speaks of "easier loading" he means more the feeding of the round into the barrel. Bottleneck cartridges do tend to feed more easily in a semiauto than straight walled rounds. But for reloading, yeah, I can see how they would be harder to reload.

I'd like to try out the .357 Sig, and a conversion kit for my P250 would be reasonable enough, but ultimately the ammo cost may hold me back. It costs quite a bit more for not much more capability than the 9x19 currently provides- sure, it's moving faster and you'll get better penetration, but the bullet is the same size. Unless I could place a shot better with .357 Sig it wouldn't be of real interest since I'd lose magazine capacity.

[tipoc]

The 40 S&W hit the law enforcement market and took it by storm in 1990. A more powerful round than the 9mm with more mag capacity than the 45 acp in guns the same size as those for the 9mm. The 40 took off and has not really slowed down at all. The law enforcement agencies that had not switched from wheelguns to autos now had a choice of the 9mm or the 40 in higher capacity mags. The U.S. military had just gone to the M9 and more rounds was the way to go.

The 357 Sig showed up 4 years later and late to the show. As was mentioned earlier in this thread, new rounds often have teething pains and the 357 Sig had it's own and that held it back as well. Agencies that were looking for new guns and rounds 1990-1994 had committed to the 9 or the 40 or 45acp and there was little to be had for the Sig round from these agencies. As you can see in this thread adoption by law enforcement guarantees sales in the civilian market. There was little room for the Sig round at that time. The 9 and 40 were known quantities and the 40 pretty new no reason to go with a newer round.

In the early 90s the semis you saw on the hips of LEOS in the U.S. were 3rd Gen S&Ws, the new Beretta 92s, here and there the 1911. The Sig P220 or P229 could be seen and a new gun from Austria that was cheap and controversial and offered great deals to law enforcement and could be had in 9 or "fortay".

Fast forward about 22 years and new guns and rounds dominate the market. About 2-3 years ago Sig launched a new campaign to sell the 357 Sig round to Leos. The round had languished and they hoped to revive interest. Nothing wrong with that. It's a good round and folks won't go wrong getting it.

Power wise (ft. lbs of energy) it falls about the same level as the 155 and 165 gr. loads for the 40 S&W while making a smaller hole and having a lighter bullet and offering the same mag capacity. It can penetrate more 1/8 inch steel plates than the 9 or the 40 with comparable bullets. But after you have penetrated 2-3 such plates does it mean all that much to penetrate 3 and dent the 4th? But it will do it (see the links I provided earlier in this thread). The 9, the 40, the 45acp and the 38 Super all easily penetrate auto and truck bodies and auto glass as well as the .357 Sig.

As for ease of feeding, when was the last time you heard fellas complaining that the 9mm would not feed in their Glock 19 due to the shape of the cartridge?

The Sig round is a good one get it cause you want to try it and keep it cause you like the way it shoots and you handle it well. Beyond that there is no need for hype.

tipoc

[MagnumMiller44]

Do what I did. Buy a Glock 23 (.40 S&W) and go to glockmeister or glock.com and order a Glock 32 (.357 SIG) barrel. It's a drop in barrel replacement. Same spring, extractor, magazines, EVERYTHING is the same as the .40, just change the barrel. The .357 SIG barrel is a bull barrel that fits perfectly in the Glock 23 slide. Since .357 SIG ammo is expensive, I just buy a little here and there, and when I want to shoot it (or carry it) I just swap barrels and rounds in the mag and I've got a .357 SIG instead of a .40. The .357 SIG recoil seriously makes the .40 feel like a 9mm, no joke, when going back and forth, but it's manageable and doesn't hurt. The barrel (an actual glock stock 32 barrel) is $140. Also it fits in my Glock 27 and functions fine, just the barrel sticks out a bit. Can get a Glock 33 barrel to drop in there and it would all fit perfect. Fun round to shoot.
Chris

[IMTHDUKE]

Best of both rds....drop in barrel

[

[Strafer Gott]

We are in the era of the sub compact handgun. Most of them in 9mm, probably the most cartridge anybody wants in a subcompact. I shoot the .357 Sig in a P239, a compact, and it's pretty much at the practical limit. Glocks are probably chambered in this caliber more often, and they aren't small either.
Maybe you can put 5 lbs of stuff in a 1 lb bag, but that doesn't mean you can sell it, or make it shootable, or find people willing to touch it off. When larger pistols return to vogue, so will the .357Sig.

[WESHOOT2]

The 357 SIG continues to increase its market share amongst LE agencies as they cycle out old 40 S&Ws and 45 ACPs.
It has proven itself highly effective as an anti-personnel rd, and offers excellent penetration capabilities.
Officers generally like its one-hit results.

Survivor.....

[Freightman]

357 Sig is a fine round with adequate power, but the cost of ammo will keep it down. As far as reloading a bottle neck case I have no problem with it I have loaded 1000's of 7.62x25 and after I refined my presses have no problem with it, in fact I haven't shot a factory load since the first term of "slick willy" and do not intend to.
I think I would like a 357 Sig when I find one I can trade for or get reasonable, shot a couple and it seems to be great. I also like the 7.62x25, and 357 Mag, and 44 Mag and 45's I like power can't stand a wimpy round in a hand gun or rifle. Smallest rifle round is a 30/06 largest is a 577-450 and looking for a 50/70, o did I mention I like power?

[pete2]

The .357 Sig is a good caliber, it puts a little more zip in your semi auto. Since I already have .357 mag revolvers that out perform the Sig I don't see the need for it.

[Nanuk]

I think it is a fantastic round, for its intended use. 10 State police agencies use the cartridge and all that have had shoots with it are very satisfied, Texas DPS calls it " A bolt of lightning". I have one 357 Sig, a Glock 31 C and a conversion for my Glock 27.

Those are my carry guns. I use Underwood 125 grn GD HP's rated at 1475 FPS. That is quite a gain over any 9mm load. It absolutely is a one trick pony, but boy it does that trick good.

Recoil is no more than a 9mm, but boy is it loud! I can easily ding the gong at 100 yards with either Glock. Yes I am a 357 Magnum fan and carried one on duty for years.

[czf]

The .357 SIG is gaining steam each day.

More and more people are buying them or buying conversion barrels.

Light recoil, very flat shooting and superb accuracy in most cases.

Also very reliable.

The only real down-side to the caliber is price, but that seems to be coming down.

[Deja vu]

they shoot that same bullet as the 9mm but have the capacity of the 40.

Ok all kidding aside. I think it is a fine round but its not what I am looking for. I think if I needed more firepower in a glock style format I would go with the 10mm.

[tipoc]

The .357 SIG is gaining steam each day.

Since it was introduced in 1994 it seems to be taking it's time building up that steam.

Light recoil, very flat shooting and superb accuracy in most cases.

Shares this characteristic with a lot of rounds.

Also very reliable.

When was the last time you heard people complain about a Glock 19 having trouble feeding the 9mm? Or any good firearm having a problem feeding the 40 S&W?

It has proven itself highly effective as an anti-personnel rd, and offers excellent penetration capabilities.
Officers generally like its one-hit results.

Marketing...I recall the same things being said of the 40 S&W and the 9mm earlier.

The 357 Sig is a decent round but it is not a "bolt of lightening".

The 357 SIG continues to increase its market share amongst LE agencies as they cycle out old 40 S&Ws and 45 ACPs

The above is a clue to the recent uptick in Gun Mag and internet talk on the .357 Sig. The need to replace aging guns in various law enforcement agencies and to sell another caliber to law enforcement and civilians. It is the same caliber it was 18 years ago but gun and ammo manufacturers want to apply new found attributes to it now in order to revive sales of the round and guns and aftermarket barrels. Sales of these have been lagging.

Nothing wrong with the Sig. It does as advertized with 125 gr. bullets and a few more loads are available for it with heavier bullets. It's a decent round it does not really need the somewhat overblown claims that smack of marketing departments.

If we take a 155 gr. 40S&W JHP from Remington or Winchester and send it downrange at 1205 fps we get 500 ft. pds. of energy at the muzzle, the momentum of the 155 gr.s and a 10mm hole.

Take the 125 gr. 9mm bullet of the .357 Sig at 1350 fps at we get 506 ft. pds. of energy at the muzzle and a sightly smaller hole, with a lighter bullet than the 40 S&W. If we get the round up to a true 1400 fps we do get more energy. With the right 9mm bullet we can also get some more penetration through steel plates with the 9 than the 40S&W. Since both rounds penetrate conventional auto and truck bodies just fine, as well as sheetrock, does the bit more penetration justify the round?

How the gun shoots for you makes the difference so if you like the Sig round get it. But don't expect it to give you a big edge over the 40, unless of course you shoot it a whole lot better.

tipoc

[sig1]

Underwood has 357 sig 125 grain at 1475 fps, thats hot.

Sent from my MB855 using Tapatalk 2

[deadcoyote]

Ammo price is it 100%. I had a full size Glock in .357 sig (model 31?). Back when cheaper than dirt sold Fiocchi .357 Sig ammo for $8.49 a box i ran ~7500 rounds through it, loved it. 2008... .357 sig ammo started being made from ground up unicorn horns and was commonly selling at $39-$50 a box, I gifted it to my dad since he doesn't shoot much and he likes the pistol.

[tipoc]

The price of ammo is a big factor. In the last year or so a good many people who were shooting the .357 Sig (experimenting with it mainly) and the 40 have dropped off shooting those and gone to the 9mm. Often that's justified by saying the 9mm is "just as good", etc. But price has been a big consideration. Sometimes it's the perception of price. Plinking/practice ammo for the 9mm is less expensive

tipoc

[RickB]

I have no interest in a 9mm round that isn't easy to handload, and reduces capacity to that of a .40; If I have .40 capacity, I want .40" bullets, too.

[thedudeabides]

I love 357 SIG, not a fan of the price of the ammo or that it's hard to find. Wally world usually has WWB SIG, but 50 rounds cost the same what 100 rounds of 45 ACP or 40 would run for. It's also not always in stock, whereas 40 is everywhere because cop guns devour the crap.

I've also run into issues with different "heat" of rounds. Some have ridiculous recoil, a lot of bang, and muzzle flash (also will make your ears ring even if you're wearing protection)--whereas others "paff" like your generic 9mm ammo with zero to no recoil in my P229. There has been no real indication of which ammo would act like this, with some of the hottest being Sellier and Bellot and Remmy UMC. Then I found a wimpy box of American Eagle/Federal cartridges which felt like shooting a 9mm. WWB feels like 40... it's all unpredictable.

I'd be a bigger fan of the ammo if it was everywhere like 40 and 45, but there have been times I've switched my P229 over to 40 because I didn't want to pay 30 bucks for 50 rounds, and even on the iterwebs it's been expensive.

[JimDandy]

My guess is cost, like everyone else. Unlike the other cost reasons, I'll go a step further and say it never caught on quick enough and wide enough in PD/military applications for the ammo to be mass produced and surplused, nor did offduty/retired folks pick one up after they processed out. What sidearm does the US Military issue? The 92FS. 9mm. What's the cheapest centerfire handgun round? The M4 is chambered for what? And what did I just pick up a case of a 6.49 a box? Well technically that was .223, not 5.56 but still....

[Nanuk]

I'll go a step further and say it never caught on quick enough and wide enough in PD/military applications for the ammo to be mass produced and surplused, nor did offduty/retired folks pick one up after they processed out.

There are 10 state police agencies that use the round, thats not bad. I did not start using it as a Carry round until after I retired, but then again i am abnormal.

[silvermane_1]

for the folks who complain about mag cap of the .357 sig, in the nov./dec. issue of american handgunner massad ayoob said that he found out by accident that the glock 22 .40 S&W 15 round mags can hold 16 rounds of .357 sig in a glock 32.

P.S. if massad ayoob is a member of TFL, could you chime in on this post?

[.357SIG]

I would be willing to bet that it overwhelmingly relates to cost of ammunition.

Reloading is not the problem some think. Performance is similar to all the other rounds; not really any better or worse. Cost sets it apart from the others.

[AK103K]

Cost has only really been an issue since the last great "shortage", prior to that, 357SIG was the exact same price as .40S&W when bought in bulk. Price is still pretty much even with most all of them when you compare premium ammo.

Reloading is just as easy as anything else, just one extra step with a .40 carbide sizer. With the right load, setback isnt an issue either. When I was first shooting it, the difference in price, about a buck a box of 50, wasnt worth the bother to reload. That changed as the price increased, although the price of components jumped right up there too.