9MM Ball vs. HPs?

[JohnKSa]

The ball ammo simply did not penitrate the skulls.. we found several of bullets under the hide!

Don't know exactly what to make of your results. But I can tell you that something was definitely amiss with your test or with your ammunition. 9mm ball will outpenetrate .22LR by approximately a factor of 2.

[Socrates]

I think their hog test is more like trying to shoot through a steel plate. Perhaps the tiny area of the 22lr allows it to get through the barrier better then the wider 9mm ammo.

MY understanding was you shot pigs in the ear, and, 22lr would go through, and CNS, dead pig. I'm sure 9mm would work for that.

Dogs are another animal that seem to soak up lead. Perhaps a 125 grain 9mm projectile just does not have enough force, at the angle they tried to shoot, to get through the barrier, in a line that would hit CNS? Perhaps the bone is just too tough for that weight projectile not to be moved off path, at least at that velocity? There is an advantage to heavier projectiles, on large animals, or tough animals. They may tend to stay on the line they were put on better then light ones...

That said, I think we have enough evidence of the necessity of multiple 9mm bullets on large targets to go here.

In other words, on a 300-600 pound hog, a 9mm bullet is NOT going to a one shot stop, unless it's placed perfectly.

A burst of 9mm might be a different story. We are now back to the no cruelty to animals, shoot them once, and make it fast, vs. using a caliber for humans.

Problem is, at least with hogs, if the first shot doesn't work, your looking at tail, and need something that will give you Texas heart shot penetration...

[Bill DeShivs]

9mm penetrating just under a hog's skin- hogwash!
The 9 penetrates extremely well, even with hollow points.
Back in the "old days," no one would carry 9mm because FMJ bullets just zipped through people. The 9mm did not become a popular defense round until viable hollow point ammunition was manufactured.

[goodspeed(TPF)]

It is quite interesting to me how much "stuff" is pulled from ones backside in these forums. What's even more interesting is the "sheep" mentality of many (to many) of the members.

[freedom475]

You know it is sad that some of you think you know it all cause you read about some stupid test conducted under perfect conditions into a perfect media like ballistics gelatin.

You can't even appreciate an actual hands on test????... Yes any 9mm bullet that struck the bone was stopped.

I even have a 45acp bullet that did the same thing on a black bear skull... In this case the bear was killed by the impact of the bullet but the bullet was found under the skin up between his ears and the skull was unbroken.

I live where I can and do shoot right out of my living room door everday. As a result I do LOTS of shooting and real world testing.

A lot of you don't have this blessing I know, so you have to wait for the weekend and go do your shooting at the range where someone man can watch over you and your practices to keep you well regulated and safe. After reading some of the replys to real world testing it is a good thing a lot of you have to shoot where you can be monitored.

I think such closed minds are better off behind the keyboard anyway

I think I'll go test a few rounds.... Yeah I know, you'll have to settle for another FBI report...Oh well

I hope know one feels single out and that everyone is still having fun, cause after all that's what we are here for.

[madmag]

You can't even appreciate an actual hands on test????...

Since you put it that way, I would not want to doubt your word. I accept your personal experience. As I said I have witnessed first hand hogs being dispatched with a 9mm luger and it was effective. I do remember many farmers saying they preferred the 9mm over the .45ACP. As one guy said. "When you shoot a hog in the head with a .45ACP, they are dead they just don't know it yet." He was referring to the fact that the .45 caused more of a large concussion than a penetrating wound to the brain. Anyway, I will give you that hogs have a thick tough skull and are hard to kill.

Ok, don't even think about starting a 9mm VS .45ACP argument.

[Alert]

there was a shooting incident at a mall in Cobb County, Georgia way back in 1986 or 87 where somebody shot 3 or more people at lunchtime, the sheriff's deputy who killed the perpetrator used a Beretta 92 loaded with FMJs, one of the rounds exited the suspect and killed an innocent bystander behind him

the resulting wrongful death suit filed and it's outcome are the reason that particular agency adopted hollowpoint ammunition

[akr]

Yep, 9mm is a good round.

[Shadi Khalil]

If I EVER have to use a SD gun, I'll first know my backstop.

Do you think thats always possible in a SD situation?

[Maromero]

The good thing about the internet is you can be polite and not laugh in somoenes face when they tell you silly stories like the above.

Not this time.

[Hondo11]

Over-penetration is the boogy man the FBI, and LEO created to sell the public on their getting very expensive ammo, when lead worked just fine.

I realize that you are focusing more on the civil liability aspect, but don't dismiss over penetration altogether.

9mm FMJ is a very bad round when it comes to over penetration. I've seen a few people shot with FMJ and you'd be surprised. One of my teammates took a round through the shoulder. The round hit the bone, came out through the top of his shoulder, went through his neck at an upward angle (severing his carotid artery in the process), then came out the opposite cheek, taking most of his face off with it. After going through him like that, the round still penetrated 2 wood walls, then hit a metal building. The round punched a hole in the metal, then fell to the floor. The metal had a nice dent in it indicating the amount of energy still left in the round when it hit.

That's not exactly ideal for self-defense...too many places for it to go if/when it exits the target.

I tended to him for 45-60 minutes until medevac got there. He lived, barely, which was obviously a good thing for him/us...but not necessarily the ideal result when you look at it from an objective "ammo performance" standpoint.

The damage was severe, but that was due more to the way he was shot and not the attributes of the round itself. You'd expect your ammo to expend more energy into the target and not have so much left over that it can exit and go through 2 wooden walls and 1 metal wall. JHP fits that bill a little better and is more suitable for defense, in my opinion.

Granted, had the round in this case been JHP, then it might have limited its damage to the shoulder and that would have been even better for us (or worse from the shooter's standpoint), but that's where shot placement comes into play.

[Socrates]

Alert:
That's the problem with the law, one bad result, and everyone suffers. Scalded dead baby, and now in Kali my shower has a sensor that limits my hot water to 120 degrees. 30 million people aren't allowed to have hot water, thanks to one accident.
If the legislature thinks I'm unsafe with hot water, what do you think they think of my choice in firearms?

LEO has different situations then SD folks.

I think you'd probably find most violent crimes occur in unpopulated, or isolated areas. Most criminals don't like witnesses.

On the otherhand, LEO might face situations where they are likely to be shooting in a crowded area. Malls, stadiums, etc. The Miami FBI shoot out can be looked at another way. Plenty of hits, but, penetration was an issue.
If a certain bullet had penetrated a bit more, the fight might have been over much sooner, and, the 80 or so misses might have been considerably reduced, protecting the public, even though the 9mm rounds that missed might have been capable of more penetration.

I can control my area, in that I know the access points, and, the angles I'm likely to have to shoot at.

I can't control all situations when I go out.

Hondo: Sounds like the 9mm ball did a LOT of damage.

Compare that to a bullet that would penetrate 6", then slow down, and sort of die over the next 6". Would a hollowpoint have done much less damage?

[Hondo11]

Hondo: Sounds like the 9mm ball did a LOT of damage.

Compare that to a bullet that would penetrate 6", then slow down, and sort of die over the next 6". Would a hollowpoint have done much less damage?

Yup, the FMJ did some damage. It also WAY overpenetrated, going through 2 wooden walls and a metal wall after it went through him.

Don't misunderstand me. I'm not saying FMJ is worthless. In this case, it allowed the round to cause multiple wounds, whereas a JHP probably would have been limited to his shoulder/arm.

On the other hand, I have seen several people shot center mass with a FMJ and it just punched a nice, neat little hole and did hardly any damage. A JHP would likely have done much more.

There are pros and cons to each, but the tiebreaker (for SD, in MY opinion) goes to the JHP because it generally dumps most of its energy into the target and stays there. Proper shot placement with JHP will usually out perform FMJ in the same place, and you don't have to worry as much about over penetrating.

If you want to be able to shoot through more stuff, then FMJ is the way to go. If you DON'T want your rounds to go any further than what they hit (generally speaking), then JHP is the way to go. It's purely up to the shooter and what he wants to get out of it.

If that's what you think is best for you, then great. But you discounted overpenetration and said it was the "boogy man....used to get people to buy more expensive ammo" (paraphrased). All my post addressed was to not completely ignore, or pretend over penetration doesn't exist.

[Socrates]

Again, after reading the FBI reports, penetration was something the FBI needed more of, and, didn't have in the shooting. They also needed better hits. For me, and, the guys I've run into in what I do, they all tend to be very large. Penetration might be an issue, for me, in dealing with the guys I've been assaulted by.

Over-penetration, given the situations, would NOT have been an issue. But, that's my experience, and, my situation. I still don't feel under gunned with HST 9mm 147's.

[Webleymkv]

Over-penetration, given the situations, would NOT have been an issue. But, that's my experience, and, my situation. I still don't feel under gunned with HST 9mm 147's.

If it's penetration you seek, perhaps one of Double Tap or Buffalo Bore's 147grn 9mm loads would be a good idea. Of course if you want all the penetration you can get, you could always use Prvi Partizan or Fiocchi 158grn FMJ.

[madmag]

Just a standard load 9mm luger FMJ will penetrate a lot. The guy that taught my CCW class is a FFL dealer. He received a new Glock 9mm in the box. He removed it got busy with other stuff, then returned and pointed it in (he thought) safe direction and pulled the trigger so he could take down. It had a live round from the factory. Went through the Fax Machine, gun shop wall, across a hallway through the other wall and into the next office and lodged in a far wall. His lady landlord was in the office at the time. Missed her. No she did not cancel the lease. He kept the Fax machine as a reminder.

[Webleymkv]

He received a new Glock 9mm in the box. He removed it got busy with other stuff, then returned and pointed it in (he thought) safe direction and pulled the trigger so he could take down. It had a live round from the factory. Went through the Fax Machine, gun shop wall, across a hallway through the other wall and into the next office and lodged in a far wall.

If that's accurate, I'd have a serious bone to pick with Glock for shipping a gun with a live round in the chamber.

[madmag]

If that's accurate, I'd have a serious bone to pick with Glock for shipping a gun with a live round in the chamber.

We asked that question, but he felt it was still his fault for not sticking to safety rules of checking for loaded chamber. He did tell them about the incident, but no law suit or such. This guy is a good ole boy that believes in taking responsibility when he fouls up. Still a few around like him.

What happens when I reach 2000? Do I get a prize? Somebody ask me something. No need I already did it on another thread.

[Dave85]

The 86 shootout out was not the first shootout in history involving 9mm ammo. Past shootouts and shootings taught that FMJ did not do enough damage to stop a threat fast enough for people's tastes. So they developed HP ammo. That failed on famous freak shot, and that means we should throw it out?

Thankfully, the ammunition companies went another way: they worked on bullets and loads that would expand and penetrate. Arguing penetration vs. expansion as if it is still essentially an either/or proposition ignores current ammunition technology.

Before we can infer anything we need a complete data set. This shootout happened 22+ years ago, and it is one event. It is impossible to form a complete doctrine based on it alone. There have been thousands of shootings since, and we need to comprehensively examine this history.

[JohnKSa]

I think their hog test is more like trying to shoot through a steel plate. Perhaps the tiny area of the 22lr allows it to get through the barrier better then the wider 9mm ammo.

The harder the material, the more advantage the 9mm should have due to the fact that the round is jacketed instead of being soft lead.

You can't even appreciate an actual hands on test????... Yes any 9mm bullet that struck the bone was stopped.

9mm is definitely capable of penetrating hog skulls, why the ammunition in your test failed to do so is a mystery.

In this case the bear was killed by the impact of the bullet but the bullet was found under the skin up between his ears and the skull was unbroken.

The impact of a pistol bullet was sufficient to kill the bear but not enough to break the skull? You get a lot of extremely odd results in your neck of the woods...

[Socrates]

Totally ammo dependent. The Silver Bear I shoot is NOT double tap...

[Inspector3711]

I love this argument. Whether ball or HP is more effective is an interesting debate. While some feel that ball is less effective in a 9MM (or other cals), which has plenty of supporting data, I'm sure there are plenty of clean kills recorded with factory ball ammo.

A couple of interesting facts: The Russian police used 9X18 ball ammo for 40 years before switching to 9X19 ball. I'm sure they've effectively ruined a day or two with it. It's been written that a 9MM FMJ bullet will typically cause about the same tissue damage as a .380 HP bullet.

Now we all know that the .380 may not be ideal, but it does stop a fight from time to time (the same can be said for the lowly .25ACP as well). In the end, the hollowpoint offers a greater probability of causing shock to the organs or central nervous system. Hit someone in the heart with a FMJ and it's a showstopper just the same. The odds that you'll hit vitals with the ball round just aren't as good.

I've killed and slaughtered hogs before. We always used an old beat up revolver chambered in .32LC. Always shot them in the temple. Never had one take a step after the shot. Those .32LC's push a 80 grain bullet at about 800 fps. They make a 9mm look like a magnum, having about 1/4 of the energy. Shoot a hog in the temple with a 9MM FMJ and he'll drop.

[Al Thompson]

Dogs are another animal that seem to soak up lead.

Most all animals are bullet sponges as they have poor reading skills and go to few movies. If they could watch movies and read, they would know that they are supposed to fall down when shot.

Otherwise all those tales of deer getting shot with rifles and having the gall to run off would cease.

Get a human on some sort of chemical that increases that pain tolerance (adrenaline) and you have to go back to what works on critters - there's a reason FMJ is not allowed or recommended for hunting.

[Jkwas]

A little off topic, but I was surprised to hear on a recent Pro Arms podcast that Rob Latham (professional competition shooter) uses 230gn ball in his home defense gun. Also surprised to learn that Clint Smith (firearms instructor of some notoriety) also uses ball ammo in his self defense guns. Their reasoning: It's gotta work. No option.
I use JHP myself.

[Socrates]

I've always wondered why flat point ammo in service calibers isn't more popular? Sort of a Keith style bullet, adapted for automatics...