new army needs a new load

guncheese · December 1, 2013, 01:39 AM

i have not shot my pietta 1858 for a number of years
it had a broken hand spring and it really looked like hell.
i could never shoot the thing worth a darn either

well a couple months ago i ordered up 2 new hands and a screw set for it
i had it all torn down and i went to shiney town on the brass frame and really got her looking good (the cylinder looks like carp but when i get to bluing some other parts ill redo it)
a week ago i fitted the new hand and installed the screws and cleaned up the trigger group a bit as it really did have a horrid trigger.

so today i got to looking around to see if i could find a load that would help me rule out the gun as the issue with accuracy
so here is what i came up with

i had read that if you can get the ball as close to the end of the chamber as you can it will help with keeping things on the straight and narrow
with this load i have just about .100" room left (i packed it pretty hard, maybe if i didnt it would have been lots closer)
is this a promising load?
i was thinking of inventing some flash paper and making some paper cartridge loads

im real inexperienced in the bp area so the help of the wise is needed

thanks
guncheese

Hawg · December 1, 2013, 01:59 AM

T7 doesn't like to be tightly compressed, just enough so there's no airspace. Alox is a no go with bp as its petroleum based. I find no discernible increase in accuracy with the ball close to the chamber mouth. Maybe if it was bench rested but not shooting off hand.

robhof · December 1, 2013, 01:09 PM

I totally agree with Hawg on all counts; I've sandbag tested with filler and without and got the same groups at 10yd and 25yd so to me filler is not used except in light loads in my Walker. Look up the Gatefeo lube mix, it's very good and easy to make and adjust to different weather conditions. You also might want to go up and down on your powder to see if your gun has a sweet spot for best accuracy, although usually light loads tend to be more accurate, some guns like the heavier loads and part of the fun is experimenting with the loads.

toolslinger · December 1, 2013, 01:20 PM

Reading your post I think you have a brass frame Remington. That load might be a bit stiff for it. 777 is supposed to be 15% hotter than real black .
Now you will get as many answers as there are gun owners. My 8'' Remmy shoots well with 30 gr fffg Goex a wonder wad and no.10 CC1 caps.

guncheese · December 1, 2013, 03:41 PM

compressed as tight as it is im guessing that 23gr IS a bit steep for the brass frame
i have shot plenty of 25gr loads with no filler thru it over the years
and can see no evidence of the frame getting battered what so ever
so i thought that a filled and wadded 23 might be ok. so maybe a .40s&W case of powder then the same of filler?
i can entirely see the logic of getting the ball closer to the throat and i cant imagine any downside (its not like the chamber is helping with anything)
and ohh boy there sure are 2 sides to the fence when it comes to alox and BP
i dont think i would bother with it in a ML or anything exciting
but for a revolver? over a wad ?
just thought that the pan lube i use wouldnt generate any issues
but thats why im here, to absorb knowledge

Hellgate · December 2, 2013, 06:14 PM

Guncheese,
If you have a brasser, check the recoil shield for the imprint of the back of the cylinder. It is not so much that the frame gets "stretched" as it is the cylinder pounding deeper into the back of the soft brass recoil shield which opens up the cylinder gap as the cylinder reloils backwards. I've seen a remington brasser for sale (a "bargain"!) with about a .02 gap from heavy loads. I prefer about .007".

DD4lifeusmc · December 3, 2013, 01:37 AM

Everybody gave you good advice so I'm repeating
petroleum based products tend to leave bad fouling hard to clean.
Instead use pure beewax and tallow (hog beef, mutton lard)
Don't have to invent flash paper.
You can buy it already made or nitrate your own.
T7 is recommended to be reduced 10 to 15% from a normal real BP load.
But if you are not at full max with BP I really wouldn't bother much
Filler------ never used the stuff.
Round ball especially. Once stuffed into the chamber it is no longer round anyway.
some people have had issues with pyro and T7 and other igniting reliably, others not. Me nope.
so--------------
I would load 20 to 25 gr T7 no filler, seat the ball till it hits the powder.
If you shave a good ring all around wouldn't worry about a chamber cross fire from the front (35+ years here and never had it happen).
Paper cartridge try regular old zig zag already nitrated or similar.
Been making cartridges from them for years. Takes practice but pretty easy.
With the paper cart I never use a wad.
I primarily shoot lubed conicals.
You might consider a replacement nipple. Tresso makes a nipple for pietta revolvers that uses #11 caps instead of #10.
ANything else, just PM me so we can talk specifics.

guncheese · December 3, 2013, 02:53 PM

i lightend it up a bit
23gr T7, 13gr cream of wheat,cardboard wad,big slug of the pan lube cut with a 45 case,ball seated to flush (way to hard of a pack!)
less lube and less COW will make it easier.

okay lets qualify this
i had carpal tunnel surgery on my left wrist beginning of November
and i had the right wrist done last week
so i was shooting with a brace and a sore right hand with stitches (and no way to grip properly)
and it was dark (just after sunrise full solid over cast)

so here is the group (seems i lost one to the left)

so yes it actually groups!!!

im happy considering all that was working against me
need to work on that trigger a bit more (it aint no 1911!)
and yeah only 6 shots but it cleaned up with a patch 4 times down the bore and a wipe down
more next range trip, wont be friday it will be close to 0 here maybe Monday

DD4lifeusmc · December 4, 2013, 10:08 AM

I see it is a brasser. You don't want heavy loads with those. They will tend to stretch twist bend deform after time with a lot of heavy loads.
Find a moderate load that groups well.
Since you are shooting left and low, when your hands heal up.
Take a file and gently remove a tad of metal from the top of front sight.
This should bring the impact up.
A little at a time until it is where it should be for you at that range.
Many times coming up will help with windage too.
It is a fixed front, after coming up, then just a tad off the right side.
From there it is just practice practice practice. Learning what it likes and where it shoots.

Where you at that it is that cold?
I'm in South east Wyoming. Last night -1 now +1 and about 8 inches snow

guncheese · December 4, 2013, 02:56 PM

in Chippewa Falls where they brew the beer!
since i was on a rest i will give it a smidge of a filing before i go out next
i absolutely hate the sights on this gun
i wonder what sight it is on the target model?
and if i could mill and drill one onto this thing
i see they make a oversized model of the 1858 (bigger frame and grip)
http://www.dixiegunworks.com/product...roducts_id=906
that might help my big hands shoot better.
will lighten the load up a bit more for next time
and see how it does
ill be able to wear a glove or just a pad on my right hand by then
as the stitches come out tomorrow, but its gonna be week and sore for along time yet as they relieve that big ligament that crosses the bottom of your palm. that relives the pressure that chokes off that nerve.
so weak palms for a long time till it gets muscled back up

guncheese · December 12, 2013, 09:11 PM

-8F at the range this morning burrrr
sent 1 cylinder down range to 25 yds just like last time
and it groups just the same
so im confident to do a little work on the front sight
(and yes i call her Crusty)

i had also made a new sight for my EDC so had to get the numbers for that
and am experimenting with leade seating of the boolit in .45acp
so 120 rounds of that as well
the wrists did pretty well but a few spasms on the way home

swathdiver · December 13, 2013, 12:24 AM

That load is a lot of work.

Stick with 19-20 grains of powder and either use a lubed wad or 2 under the ball or lube over the ball and be done with it. You can use Cream of Wheat to get the ball closer to the top for slightly better accuracy.

BirchOrr · December 13, 2013, 08:28 PM

Amen to that brother!

Birch

dr1445 · December 13, 2013, 08:43 PM

the op is using triple 7 so the 20 grain bp load should be reduced by 15%.

guncheese · December 13, 2013, 11:31 PM

"lubed wad or 2 under the ball or lube over the ball and be done with it. You can use Cream of Wheat to get the ball closer to the top for slightly better accuracy"

that winds up being the same as im doing now as far as amount of work goes
and mine is cheaper as im using cardboard instead of felt.
and my lube disc isnt messy or hard to work with,and it seems to clean up pretty easy.
worked out a plan for the front sight will get that done this weekend and try to get back out on monday burrrrrr

BirchOrr · December 14, 2013, 02:33 AM

Ya don't need lube over the ball if using an "over the powder, under the ball" wad such as a "Wonder Wad". Ya don't need 2 of em either! LOL!!! I do agree, using a filler over the wad and under the ball to get the proper compaction and seating the ball close to the edge of the cylinder will help accuracy. (Others will disagree). Compaction ONLY COUNTS with real BP like Goex or Swiss. With most substitutes, they recommend little to no compaction.

Come shoot with me out the back window of "The Antler Bar". Cold here but it's heated and complete with exhaust fan to clear the smoke.

If "cost" is a factor in this... your new love of BP, sell your pistol and go bowling.

Birch

December 1, 2013, 01:09 PM	#3
robhof Senior Member Join Date: September 16, 2007 Posts: 712	robhof I totally agree with Hawg on all counts; I've sandbag tested with filler and without and got the same groups at 10yd and 25yd so to me filler is not used except in light loads in my Walker. Look up the Gatefeo lube mix, it's very good and easy to make and adjust to different weather conditions. You also might want to go up and down on your powder to see if your gun has a sweet spot for best accuracy, although usually light loads tend to be more accurate, some guns like the heavier loads and part of the fun is experimenting with the loads.

December 2, 2013, 06:14 PM	#6
Hellgate Senior Member Join Date: November 18, 2010 Location: Orygun Posts: 869	Guncheese, If you have a brasser, check the recoil shield for the imprint of the back of the cylinder. It is not so much that the frame gets "stretched" as it is the cylinder pounding deeper into the back of the soft brass recoil shield which opens up the cylinder gap as the cylinder reloils backwards. I've seen a remington brasser for sale (a "bargain"!) with about a .02 gap from heavy loads. I prefer about .007". __________________ With over 15 perCUSSIN' revolvers, I've been called the Imelda Marcos of cap & ball. SASS#3302 (Life), SASS Regulator, NRA (Life), Dirty Gamey Bastards #129 Wolverton Mtn. Peacekeepers (WA), former Orygun Cowboy (Ranger, Posse from Hell)

December 3, 2013, 01:37 AM	#7
DD4lifeusmc Senior Member Join Date: October 12, 2012 Location: Wyoming Posts: 351	new load Everybody gave you good advice so I'm repeating petroleum based products tend to leave bad fouling hard to clean. Instead use pure beewax and tallow (hog beef, mutton lard) Don't have to invent flash paper. You can buy it already made or nitrate your own. T7 is recommended to be reduced 10 to 15% from a normal real BP load. But if you are not at full max with BP I really wouldn't bother much Filler------ never used the stuff. Round ball especially. Once stuffed into the chamber it is no longer round anyway. some people have had issues with pyro and T7 and other igniting reliably, others not. Me nope. so-------------- I would load 20 to 25 gr T7 no filler, seat the ball till it hits the powder. If you shave a good ring all around wouldn't worry about a chamber cross fire from the front (35+ years here and never had it happen). Paper cartridge try regular old zig zag already nitrated or similar. Been making cartridges from them for years. Takes practice but pretty easy. With the paper cart I never use a wad. I primarily shoot lubed conicals. You might consider a replacement nipple. Tresso makes a nipple for pietta revolvers that uses #11 caps instead of #10. ANything else, just PM me so we can talk specifics.

December 3, 2013, 02:53 PM	#8
guncheese Senior Member Join Date: January 13, 2013 Posts: 128	range trip i lightend it up a bit 23gr T7, 13gr cream of wheat,cardboard wad,big slug of the pan lube cut with a 45 case,ball seated to flush (way to hard of a pack!) less lube and less COW will make it easier. okay lets qualify this i had carpal tunnel surgery on my left wrist beginning of November and i had the right wrist done last week so i was shooting with a brace and a sore right hand with stitches (and no way to grip properly) and it was dark (just after sunrise full solid over cast) so here is the group (seems i lost one to the left) so yes it actually groups!!! im happy considering all that was working against me need to work on that trigger a bit more (it aint no 1911!) and yeah only 6 shots but it cleaned up with a patch 4 times down the bore and a wipe down more next range trip, wont be friday it will be close to 0 here maybe Monday

December 4, 2013, 10:08 AM	#9
DD4lifeusmc Senior Member Join Date: October 12, 2012 Location: Wyoming Posts: 351	groups I see it is a brasser. You don't want heavy loads with those. They will tend to stretch twist bend deform after time with a lot of heavy loads. Find a moderate load that groups well. Since you are shooting left and low, when your hands heal up. Take a file and gently remove a tad of metal from the top of front sight. This should bring the impact up. A little at a time until it is where it should be for you at that range. Many times coming up will help with windage too. It is a fixed front, after coming up, then just a tad off the right side. From there it is just practice practice practice. Learning what it likes and where it shoots. Where you at that it is that cold? I'm in South east Wyoming. Last night -1 now +1 and about 8 inches snow

December 1, 2013, 01:39 AM	#1
guncheese Senior Member Join Date: January 13, 2013 Posts: 128	new army needs a new load i have not shot my pietta 1858 for a number of years it had a broken hand spring and it really looked like hell. i could never shoot the thing worth a darn either well a couple months ago i ordered up 2 new hands and a screw set for it i had it all torn down and i went to shiney town on the brass frame and really got her looking good (the cylinder looks like carp but when i get to bluing some other parts ill redo it) a week ago i fitted the new hand and installed the screws and cleaned up the trigger group a bit as it really did have a horrid trigger. so today i got to looking around to see if i could find a load that would help me rule out the gun as the issue with accuracy so here is what i came up with i had read that if you can get the ball as close to the end of the chamber as you can it will help with keeping things on the straight and narrow with this load i have just about .100" room left (i packed it pretty hard, maybe if i didnt it would have been lots closer) is this a promising load? i was thinking of inventing some flash paper and making some paper cartridge loads im real inexperienced in the bp area so the help of the wise is needed thanks guncheese Last edited by guncheese; December 1, 2013 at 02:31 AM.

December 1, 2013, 01:59 AM	#2
Hawg Senior Member Join Date: September 8, 2007 Location: Mississippi Posts: 16,188	T7 doesn't like to be tightly compressed, just enough so there's no airspace. Alox is a no go with bp as its petroleum based. I find no discernible increase in accuracy with the ball close to the chamber mouth. Maybe if it was bench rested but not shooting off hand.

December 1, 2013, 01:20 PM	#4
toolslinger Senior Member Join Date: September 30, 2009 Posts: 102	Reading your post I think you have a brass frame Remington. That load might be a bit stiff for it. 777 is supposed to be 15% hotter than real black . Now you will get as many answers as there are gun owners. My 8'' Remmy shoots well with 30 gr fffg Goex a wonder wad and no.10 CC1 caps.

December 1, 2013, 03:41 PM	#5
guncheese Senior Member Join Date: January 13, 2013 Posts: 128	compressed as tight as it is im guessing that 23gr IS a bit steep for the brass frame i have shot plenty of 25gr loads with no filler thru it over the years and can see no evidence of the frame getting battered what so ever so i thought that a filled and wadded 23 might be ok. so maybe a .40s&W case of powder then the same of filler? i can entirely see the logic of getting the ball closer to the throat and i cant imagine any downside (its not like the chamber is helping with anything) and ohh boy there sure are 2 sides to the fence when it comes to alox and BP i dont think i would bother with it in a ML or anything exciting but for a revolver? over a wad ? just thought that the pan lube i use wouldnt generate any issues but thats why im here, to absorb knowledge

December 4, 2013, 02:56 PM	#10
guncheese Senior Member Join Date: January 13, 2013 Posts: 128	in Chippewa Falls where they brew the beer! since i was on a rest i will give it a smidge of a filing before i go out next i absolutely hate the sights on this gun i wonder what sight it is on the target model? and if i could mill and drill one onto this thing i see they make a oversized model of the 1858 (bigger frame and grip) http://www.dixiegunworks.com/product...roducts_id=906 that might help my big hands shoot better. will lighten the load up a bit more for next time and see how it does ill be able to wear a glove or just a pad on my right hand by then as the stitches come out tomorrow, but its gonna be week and sore for along time yet as they relieve that big ligament that crosses the bottom of your palm. that relives the pressure that chokes off that nerve. so weak palms for a long time till it gets muscled back up

December 12, 2013, 09:11 PM	#11
guncheese Senior Member Join Date: January 13, 2013 Posts: 128	back to the range BURRRRR -8F at the range this morning burrrr sent 1 cylinder down range to 25 yds just like last time and it groups just the same so im confident to do a little work on the front sight (and yes i call her Crusty) i had also made a new sight for my EDC so had to get the numbers for that and am experimenting with leade seating of the boolit in .45acp so 120 rounds of that as well the wrists did pretty well but a few spasms on the way home

December 13, 2013, 12:24 AM	#12
swathdiver Senior Member Join Date: December 19, 2012 Location: Treasure Coast, Florida Posts: 335	That load is a lot of work. Stick with 19-20 grains of powder and either use a lubed wad or 2 under the ball or lube over the ball and be done with it. You can use Cream of Wheat to get the ball closer to the top for slightly better accuracy.

December 13, 2013, 08:28 PM	#13
BirchOrr Senior Member Join Date: November 25, 2012 Location: Eaton Rapids, MI Posts: 445	^^^ Amen to that brother! Birch __________________ Black Powder: Not because it is easy, but because it is hard, because that goal will serve to organize and measure the best of our energies and skills, because that challenge is one that we are willing to accept, one we are unwilling to postpone, and one which we intend to win...

December 13, 2013, 08:43 PM	#14
dr1445 Senior Member Join Date: January 10, 2009 Location: CT Posts: 199	the op is using triple 7 so the 20 grain bp load should be reduced by 15%.

December 13, 2013, 11:31 PM	#15
guncheese Senior Member Join Date: January 13, 2013 Posts: 128	"lubed wad or 2 under the ball or lube over the ball and be done with it. You can use Cream of Wheat to get the ball closer to the top for slightly better accuracy" that winds up being the same as im doing now as far as amount of work goes and mine is cheaper as im using cardboard instead of felt. and my lube disc isnt messy or hard to work with,and it seems to clean up pretty easy. worked out a plan for the front sight will get that done this weekend and try to get back out on monday burrrrrr

December 14, 2013, 02:33 AM	#16
BirchOrr Senior Member Join Date: November 25, 2012 Location: Eaton Rapids, MI Posts: 445	^^^ Ya don't need lube over the ball if using an "over the powder, under the ball" wad such as a "Wonder Wad". Ya don't need 2 of em either! LOL!!! I do agree, using a filler over the wad and under the ball to get the proper compaction and seating the ball close to the edge of the cylinder will help accuracy. (Others will disagree). Compaction ONLY COUNTS with real BP like Goex or Swiss. With most substitutes, they recommend little to no compaction. Come shoot with me out the back window of "The Antler Bar". Cold here but it's heated and complete with exhaust fan to clear the smoke. If "cost" is a factor in this... your new love of BP, sell your pistol and go bowling. Birch __________________ Black Powder: Not because it is easy, but because it is hard, because that goal will serve to organize and measure the best of our energies and skills, because that challenge is one that we are willing to accept, one we are unwilling to postpone, and one which we intend to win...