357 for hunting?

[JerryM]

In the field few if anyone can always place the shot perfectly. The person who is in the field a lot, and who maybe lives there, can pass up poor opportunities, and wait for another day.

Most of us do not hunt on other than pubic land where we do not get many opportunities, and sometime take less than a clear perfect broadside standing shot. It is my view that game deserves to be killed as cleanly as possible, and the .357 will not do that under some circumstances when a larger rifle cartridge would.

So that is my opinion. I might not get a close perfect shot, and if I get a shot at a good buck I want to be able to make a kill with a higher probability than a .357 will provide. I am sure that plenty of deer have been killed with a .22 rimfire, but that does not prove the adequacy of it.

Each is free to do as he will, but that is my view. Take it or leave it.

Regards,
Jerry

[Discern]

Jerry, you are welcome to your standards.

Everyone needs to know the limitations of their abilities and the abilities of the hunting method they are using. The shot placement does not need to be "perfect". If you can consistently hit a 8" paper plate you can place the bullet in the vitals. My personal standards are smaller than an 8" diameter target zone, but those are my personal standards. As with any caliber, power levels and bullet choice are important.

[jimbob86]

WAKE UP! You need to stop using handgun ballistics and re-do some calculations.

I'm awake, and those are not my calculations- they were Sierra's..... using an 18 1/2" barreled Marlin 1894......

It's not hard (downright easy as a matter of fact) to push a 180gr XTP slug at 1600 fps which gets you over 1000ft/lbs

I'm not the one who needs to wake up: 1,000 lbs muzzle energy does not equal anywhere close to 900 lbs of energy at 100 yards.....


Even with the very best loading you can find, out of a Marlin 18.5"

18.5 inch Marlin 1894

a. Item 19A/20-180gr. Hard Cast = 1851 fps

Looking at their velocity tables ...... at 1900 feet per second (which they can't obtain with that load, so why is it listed?) you get 984.9 ft/lbs ..... at 1800, 880 ......... interpolate the two and you get 934 ft/lbs, barely legal, on the best day, using the manufacturer's gun and data .... now try it with your gun, under hunting conditions (powder temp of 25 degrees, typical of our November opening day temps?) betcha you don't fare as well......

Bottom line, the .357 Mag, even out of a rifle, even with hot loads, even on it's very best day, is on the raggededy edge not enough gun.

[Deja vu]

The 357 magnum is able to kill deer. I have killed 4. None of them have ever walked more than 1 step.

With Buffalo bore I would go with the 158 grain. they claim 158gr. Jacketed Hollow Point = 2153 fps

Even carefully loaded, a .357 Mag out of a rifle is nowhere near the 900 ft/lbs of energy at 100 yards standard for rifle deer hunting in NE. ...... not by a long shot. Show me a load that develops that level of energy- even Hornady "Superformance" stuff only give you 500-600 ft/lbs.......

That is from an 18 inch barrel. My 22 inch gets about 2265 FPS.

that means about 1800 foot pounds at the muzzle and a little more than 1050 at 100 yards. While I agree it is on the small side it is adequate for deer at 100 yards.

Even there published data (which Buffalo bore is very good about being accurate) has it in the legal range with an 18 inch barrel. For deer the 158 grain is better than the 180 grain. That said I have only actually used this ammo twice for deer.

[L_Killkenny]

My apoligies for coming down so hard. I had honestly missed the "100 yard" mark set forth by the Neb. DNR.

But in my defence: By your own admission in your last post the .357 is a legal round in rifles in Neb and Deja Vu's post also clearly points out that it's a legal round using the 158's. Let's not forget that the .357 is legal in a handgun as standard pressure 180 gr loads still carry over 400 ft/lbs required by your state. Why a .357 carbine is even borderline by your state regs is a mystery to me for it knocks the snot outta the handgun out well beyond 150 yards.

Just because your state has messed up regs that make the .357 carbine borderline does not mean it's not effective. Deja Vu's BB load only falls 100 ft/lbs short of 170gr .30-30 loads making the .357 carbine or rifle more than enough medicine for any whitetail that walks the earth. You may have an argument with handguns although my experience and the experience of 1000's of others doesn't indicate that but a .357 carbine or rifle smokes most handgun cartridges you and/or your state might deem acceptable for deer including the .44M and most, if not all, .454 loads.

[jimbob86]

Deja Vu's BB load only falls 100 ft/lbs short of 170gr .30-30 loads.

At 100 yards? Really?

.30/30 170gr flatpoint energy @100 yards is just over 1800 ft.lbs......

I think you are still confused here...... Deja's load develops that at the muzzle....

That is from an 18 inch barrel. My 22 inch gets about 2265 FPS.

that means about 1800 foot pounds at the muzzle and a little more than 1050 at 100 yards.

Still barely legal, on it's best day ....... throw in field conditions (low temps=lower MV=less ME=not cutting the mustard)... and try 'splainin' to the game warden that your .357 rifle is loaded with super-duper loads that are legal ...... he's got in his head that that it's a pop-gun, and you are the only fool he's ever seen hunting with one........

So, carefully loaded, with long barrels, and all the stars aligned and conditions perfect, .357out of rifle is barely legal in NE ....... and legal or not, it would be a poor choice for where I hunt: if I only took short shots, I'd have had a lot of hungry winters. The deer are well fed, with 1 1/2 y.o. bucks running 150 lbs ..... 100 yards is a short shot in western Nebraska.

Under field conditions, which means things rarely go perfectly, by choosing a .357 Magnum rifle, you are taking out all margin of error...... Maybe you want a challenge, but I think ethically, you owe your quarry a clean kill. Unless you are willing to pass up less than perfect shots ....... then it is a poor choice.

[Deja vu]

Still barely legal, on it's best day ....... throw in field conditions (low temps=lower MV=less ME=not cutting the mustard)... and try 'splainin' to the game warden that your .357 rifle is loaded with super-duper loads that are legal ...... he's got in his head that that it's a pop-gun, and you are the only fool he's ever seen hunting with one........

So, carefully loaded, with long barrels, and all the stars aligned and conditions perfect, .357out of rifle is barely legal in NE ....... and legal or not, it would be a poor choice for where I hunt: if I only took short shots, I'd have had a lot of hungry winters. The deer are well fed, with 1 1/2 y.o. bucks running 150 lbs ..... 100 yards is a short shot in western Nebraska.

Under field conditions, which means things rarely go perfectly, by choosing a .357 Magnum rifle, you are taking out all margin of error...... Maybe you want a challenge, but I think ethically, you owe your quarry a clean kill. Unless you are willing to pass up less than perfect shots ....... then it is a poor choice.

I agree that it may be hard to convince a warden that it is legal. I enjoy a challenge. I typically try to get closer that 100 yards when hunting with a 357 magnum. I all so agree that there are much better guns to hunt deer with.

I really do think the 357 magnum is a decent round for deer from an experienced hunter but I would not let my kids hunt deer with it (even though I did when I was a kid) They are less likely to pass up a shot.

Other than the hostility I agree with most of what you said. If you are hunting for food and need the meat then I would go with some thing more effective 100% of the time. I typically hunt for the sport (I do keep the meet and the antlers) I pass up shots every year. So if I don't get a deer that year its not a huge deal, my parents raise cattle so I pretty much all ways have beef in the freezer for next to nothing in $. I enjoy hunting with a 357 magnum rifle because it is 100% legal in Idaho (the only real rule is a center fire rifle less than 15lbs). I all so hunt with a 45/70 Govt lever action. I like lever actions.

[Daekar]

Quite a ******* contest here, gentlemen. As far as I am aware, the Nebraska regulations aren't based on any factual or rational reasoning. 900ftlbs at 100 yard as a minimum is completely overkill even for the middle-sized deer you have there. The issue here is that in the Nebraska hunting frame of mind, 100yards is a really short shot, and selecting a rifle cartridge based on this distance is a poor choice. Incidentally, this makes ALL big-bore catridges that don't have punishing recoil a bad choice compared to something like a 270 or 6.5mm Swede. However, in some parts of the country, it is easy to stalk deer up to 100 yards and often closer, and this is where the "brush gun" cartridges come in. If we look at historical rather than legal precedent, we find that it is perfectly possible and humane to take deer with 357 out to about a maximum advisable range of 150 yards with the right loads. If it were me shooting, I'd keep it closer to 100, but many people don't and have no problems.

Part of the issue here is the understated importance of bullet weight and diameter in the killing power of a cartridge. Energy is important, but a heavy bullet can be deceptively effective even at lower velocities. Of course, lower velocities mean greater bullet drop and greater compensation for distance... but if a shooter does their part, there is nothing to be concerned.

[Deja vu]

As far as I am aware, the Nebraska regulations aren't based on any factual or rational reasoning. 900ftlbs at 100 yard as a minimum is completely overkill even for the middle-sized deer you have there. The issue here is that in the Nebraska hunting frame of mind, 100yards is a really short shot, and selecting a rifle cartridge based on this distance is a poor choice. Incidentally, this makes ALL big-bore catridges that don't have punishing recoil a bad choice compared to something like a 270 or 6.5mm Swede.

I agree that hunting in NB and ID are very different. Heck hunting in western and eastern and northern Idaho are all very different. I think if I was to go hunting in NB I would go with a 30-06.

[jimbob86]

Other than the hostility I agree with most of what you said.

I'm sorry if I came across as hostile ..... I just think that advocating a truly marginal caliber for deer is irresponsible, and misquoting ballistics tables in defense of that argument is ...... well, I'll ridicule the ridiculous all day, every day:

Deja Vu's BB load only falls 100 ft/lbs short of 170gr .30-30 loads.

To not call a spade a spade is dishonest.

For every guy that posts about this, there are many who just read it..... and repeat 1/2 of what they read ......

I really do think the 357 magnum is a decent round for deer from an experienced hunter but I would not let my kids hunt deer with it (even though I did when I was a kid) They are less likely to pass up a shot.

Cletus hears this thirdhand and will go out and buy his kid a .357 Marlin to hunt deer with, because recoil is light and some guy on the 'net said it was an acceptable deer cartidge...... settin' jr. up for failure.

Mind you, I make the same argument about .223: Properly loaded with heavy for caliber bullets pushed as fast as they will go (and still maintain accuracy), it will work for deer, so long as shots are short and conditions are perfect..... but what Cletus hears is "Ah kin take my M4gery deer huntin'!..... with 55gr soft points out of a 16" barrel ..... and there's 1/2 a dozen deer running around dying slowly from multiple "hickeys from hell".......

There are better choices.

[Deja vu]

There are better choices.

I agree 100% in every post I made. I believe I stated that I like the challenge of the 357 magnum. I all so archery hunt and black powder hunt as well as handgun hunting.

Its not much of a challenge to step out on the porch and shoot a deer at 200 yards using the rail as rest with some thing like a 30-06 or a 7mm.

Yes we do have deer at 200 yards from my house.

[jimbob86]

As far as I am aware, the Nebraska regulations aren't based on any factual or rational reasoning.

Game regulations are formulated with input from the public at annual meetings held around the state.... I can't imagine anyone standing up and advocating for lower energy level standards..... but if you could get enough support for it, I'm sure they'd change it, so long as it didn't cost them any budget money.

I agree that hunting in NB and ID are very different. Heck hunting in western and eastern and northern Idaho are all very different. I think if I was to go hunting in NB I would go with a 30-06.

Folks around here generally hunt with high-powered scoped bolt rifles in flat shooting calibers ..... .243, .270. ...... .308 and .30/06 ... I've seen a .35 whelen and a 6.8 AR .....only a couple of 30/30's...... one guy had a 7 STW (Shoots Thru Wisconsin) one year, but he tired of the recoil pretty quick....

....I guess I have an uncle that uses a Sharps reproduction with cast bullets.... he's ....."eccentric", I think is the right word........

[Daekar]

Bingo: not based on facts. They took a poll. The simple fact is, you don't need half that energy at impact to make a clean kill on medium sized deer with decent shot placement. I believe in another thread, a poster cited an old gun mag that was encouraging people to ensure they had the minimum 200ftlbs for clean kill on large game. What this indicates is SEVERE power inflation. Saying that five times the old value is the new absolute minimum sounds like well-meaning ignorance rather than reason to me. If those numbers were actually required for deer-sized animals, hunting with black powder would be completely impractical, and the plains buffalo certainly would never had died so easily to the old lower-velocity bullets.

It is important to remember that just because we have greater power available in our ammunition that doesn't mean animals have gotten harder to kill. As far as refusing to endorse a round umder certain conditions because someone might ignore part of what we say, that's lawyer-talk, and belongs in a nanny-state. In my state, people are responsible for their actions, and regardless of what they read of our discussion, we aren't responsible for what they do. It's up to each of us to use our own judgement.

As far as "better choices," I think that varies with the requirements. If the requirements are for a brush gun for 150 yard max shots with easy follow-up shots in a flexible, affordable cartridge that's easy to reload for a carbine and a revolver... well no, there probably are no better choices. If we're talking 200+ yard shots at higher cost and larger targets at bad angles... then yes, a different round is called for.

For the record, I considered getting a 357 levergun for just this purpose and decided to accurize an SKS instead. I feel more comfortable with 30-30ish power. If I were going to take up deer hunting as a hobby, I would either scope my Mosin Nagant or my Mauser, or I'd get a moderm bolt gun in 308, 270, 6mm, or any of the other superb full-power non-magnum cartridges out there.

[BIG P]

Jephtal, Thats so I can get um wwwway out there 6' barrel thats a nice'un.
I bet thats the only one Ruger built. I knew there was something
different about it.LOL:

[L_Killkenny]

To not call a spade a spade is dishonest.

I take my numbers straight from handloads.com and from Buffalo Bore's site where they even state that their heavy .357's match .30-30. Instead of just callin it dishonest why don't you come up with facts that dispute it?

You don't think a .357 carbine is enough for deer. And if you're shots are over 100 yards most of the time it may not be the best choice. But .357 handguns have proven effective on deer with proper loadings 1000's of times. I have no issues with 50 yard handgun shots on deer and your own state has a minimum of 400 ft/lbs. (like that means anything, bureaucrats ) which falls right in line with what has been proven. So let's compare a .357 handgun at 50 yards (450 ft/lbs?) and rifle or carbine. A rifle/carbine has, by your own number, over 900lt/lbs at 100 yards. Twice the distance and twice the energy. Out of a rifle or carbine the .357 doesn't drop to handgun levels till past 300 yards. So "by the numbers" even if (BIG IF) a .357 handgun is marginal than there is no way that a .357 carbine/rifle is marginal at 100 or 150 yards. Which due to a rainbow trajectory is the practical limits for them. Let's not forget that a .357 carbine/rifle carries more power than any .44M handgun but I'm guessing that you don't think a .44M handgun isn't enough for deer either?

But those are just "numbers" and in the field they don't mean much. What does count is the fact that a .357 will punch right thru a chest shot deer at any angle out to "reasonable" distances and it will die just as quick as if shot with any other round. Shoot it in the gut and a .30-06 won't run any less or die any quicker. Yes, .357 may be marginal for you. But that's not due to the cartridge or platform, it's due to the fact your shots are longer and you can't/won't adjust for the range. It's a matter of trajectory not power and I wouldn't either. Heck, in your case even a .30-30 is too range limiting for me even with the gummy tipped bullets. But here we hunt with shotguns and have to get to with in 100 yards. Given the choice I'll take a .357 lever gun 10 times outta 10 over a shotgun.

LK

[jimbob86]

I take my numbers straight from handloads.com and from Buffalo Bore's site where they even state that their heavy .357's match .30-30. Instead of just callin it dishonest why don't you come up with facts that dispute it?

You confused muzzle energy of the .357 load listed with the 100 yard energy of the .30/30..... I think I pointed that out pretty plainly ......

Deja Vu's BB load only falls 100 ft/lbs short of 170gr .30-30 loads.

At 100 yards? Really?

.30/30 170gr flatpoint energy @100 yards is just over 1800 ft.lbs......

I think you are still confused here...... Deja's load develops that at the muzzle....


Quote:
That is from an 18 inch barrel. My 22 inch gets about 2265 FPS.

that means about 1800 foot pounds at the muzzle and a little more than 1050 at 100 yards.

Buffalo Bore's site where they even state that their heavy .357's match .30-30.

Then they are shovelling something: 1,000 ft./lbs of energy at 100 yards does not equal 1,800 ft./lbs at 100 yards...... what 30/30 load are they matching? Somebody's reduced plinker load?

Deja's longer barrel ekes out a bit more velocity than the 18.5 barrel charts on their site ........ which show their load barely squeaks by the 900 ft.lb energy lower limit established in my state.......

Hunt with what you want, provided it is legal where you hunt .... and if it's not, work to change it, if you think that's the right thing to do. I don't think hunting with a .357 carbine for deer in Nebraska is the right thing to do....... nor do I think advocating for it's use on deer elsewhere is the right thing to do, so I will advocate against it. It's still a free country.

[L_Killkenny]

.30/30 170gr flatpoint energy @100 yards is just over 1800 ft.lbs......

Ummmmm.......no. Using "factory" velocity numbers a federal 170gr .30-30 has 1827 ft/lbs at the muzzle and 1350 at 100 yards. Not even close to your numbers and if you adjust for barrel length than the numbers are substantially lower (more like 1657 and 1164). Yes, due to better BC the .30-30 does slightly better down range. Not enough to make a poo's worth of difference for the ranges we are talking.

Advocate all you want against it but you're bringing a knife to a gun fight with the lack of facts.

LK

[jimbob86]

But those are just "numbers" and in the field they don't mean much. What does count is the fact that a .357 will punch right thru a chest shot deer at any angle out to "reasonable" distances and it will die just as quick as if shot with any other round.

I have shot a buck in the chest with a a .357 magnum handgun..... at 10 feet. 158 gr Hornady XTP's with a muzzle velocity of 1250..... not moving the 1600 f/sec that Deja's BB 19C would be moving at 100 yards, but "those are just numbers, and don't mean much", right?

mmmmm..... turn the argument around and they get important all of the sudden.......

[L_Killkenny]

I have shot a buck in the chest with a a .357 magnum handgun..... at 10 feet. 158 gr Hornady XTP's with a muzzle velocity of 1250..... not moving the 1600 f/sec that Deja's BB 19C would be moving at 100 yards,

Then what the heck are you argueing about? Did the buck die? What was penetration like? Does the extra 350fps at 100 yards mean that anything? What happened to you shots being 100 yards plus? What happened to your .30-30 is far and away better than the .357? Now that numbers for the .30-30 aren't what you thought is it all teh sudden not enough for deer too?
What about the .44 handgun comparison? Is it or isn't it enough?

Don't leave us hangin.

LK

[Dr. A]

There is just no convincing some folks. Years ago I had just bought my farm and took a shot at 419 yards and hit a pretty nice buck. On going up and finding him, I found he was indeed pretty nice for a 3 year old. While some of you would have taken him in a minute being 50 feet from him, I generally try to hunt only the mature 4.5 year old (and older) bucks. I then decided that even though I'm from Kansas (longer shots), I would do what I could to find out specifically what I was shooting at. I've since taken up bow hunting (very fun), and hunting with lever actions. The farm has CRP and heavy forest planted, that prohibits for the most parts shots farther than 200 yards. Its easy to limit shots to even 150 yards. With this in mind, and my young son wanting to try out rifle hunting, I set him up with a Buffalo Bore like load. That is 180gr. self cast boolit easily going a bit over 1900fps in my Marlin. I shortened a birch stock, and he leaned to shoot with 7gr. of Herco and a 158gr. lead boolit that gave very mild recoil. I resighted in the gun without his knowledge with that hot load and he was none the wiser. He was 7 then and last year (11) he finally moved up to a 243. He prefers lever actions, so this year will be a 45-70.

I wouldn't choose a 357 for a meaningful hunt where I might get one of our bucks that can be rather large sized, but still would not hesitate to shoot one should the opportunity arise and all I had was a 357. If that buck shows at 200 yards, I doubt I would take the shot. If you're limited on yardage and deer size, my son had no problem killing several deer with that load. Dead is dead. They didn't run and he wasn't scared of the gun.

[Deja vu]

Wow this has really heated up. Hunting with a 357 magnum rifle is like hunting with a bow or a black powder rifle. It takes mroe skill and it not for the new hunter. I enjoy it becuase I hunt for the sport of it.

Some people hunt with a handgun because it make it more of a sport, other people hunt with archery for the same reason. Others hunt with a handgun caliber rifle. I would not use a 357 magnum rifle to hunt in areas where you have to take 250+ yard shots. But for an area such as thick forrests or really brush coverd area the 357 magnum rifle works fine. I have taken deer with a 357 magnum hand gun before but you must get much closer (I try to get with in 25 yards)

I ocasionally antilope hunt in Western Idaho which if you don't know is very desert and wide open areas. Antilope are smaller and more thin skinned animals than the deer here is eastern Idaho yet I use a more powerful rifle because I have to shoot much farther.

p.s. Sorry my spell check is down.

[COSteve]

Gentlemen. You are forgetting that many of us come to this discussion with a different image of 'deer'. In the East and South where the deer are smaller and the shots are shorter, a proper 357mag levergun is probably a decent choice. On the other hand, our here in the West, the deer are much larger and the average shots are much longer and so a proper 357mag levergun is likely not going to get the meat on the table.

Now, to jkillkeny's (correction JimBob's) rabid dismissal of the performance numbers of the 357mag, I offer this factual information. I have a Rossi 20" carbine and 24" rifle, both in 357mag. I handload 158grn and have tried Buffalo Bore's 158grn Heavy 357mag ammo. I've chrono'd the loads using an Oehler 35 as follows:

Range conditions: 6,100ft asl, 46°

SAAMI Spec Handload 158grn: 20" carbine - 1,857fps , 24" Rifle - 1,903fps*
Buffalo bore Heavy 158grn: 20" carbine - 2,187fps , 24" Rifle - 2,243fps (Claimed performance from an 18.5" barrel, 2,153fps.)

* SAAMI Specs for 158grn 357mag ammo are very conservative pressures in a levergun with it's significantly stronger action than a revolver. Therefore, modern leverguns can utilize the original 357mag pressure load levels of 40,000psi and over which are above the current SAAMI 357mag spec of 35,000psi. My chrono results for these higher pressure 357mag loads are - Original Pressure 158grn: 20" carbine - 2,134fps , 24" Rifle - 2,189fps.

Using Handloads.com's Ballistic Calculator on those loads yields the following data:

SAAMI Level Carbine - 1,857fps: Energy at Muzzle - 1,210ft/lbs, Energy at 100yds - 761ft/lbs
SAAMI Level Rifle - 1,903fps: Energy at Muzzle - 1,271ft/lbs, Energy at 100yds - 800ft/lbs
Original Pressure Carbine - 2,134fps: Energy at Muzzle - 1,598ft/lbs, Energy at 100yds - 1,020ft/lbs
Original Pressure Rifle - 2,199fps: Energy at Muzzle - 1,697ft/lbs, Energy at 100yds - 1,088ft/lbs
Buffalo Bore Carbine - 2,187fps: Energy at Muzzle - 1,678ft/lbs, Energy at 100yds - 1,076ft/lbs**
Buffalo Bore Rifle - 2,243fps: Energy at Muzzle - 1,765ft/lbs, Energy at 100yds - 1,135ft/lbs

** Buffalo Bore's test data shows 2,153fps from an 18.5" barrel which would yield Energy at Muzzle - 1,626ft/lbs, Energy at 100yds - 1,039ft/lbs.

So how do these numbers compare to Hornady's LEVERevolution 160grn 30-30 factory loads? Hornady's advertised ballistics were taken using 24" test barrels, rather than the much more common 20" barrels found on most 30-30 leverguns. That means that the performance out of a standard 20" carbine would be lower. In fact, Guns and Shooting Online Staff's actual testing of Hornady's LEVERevolution 160grn 30-30 factory loads out of a 20" carbine yielded a muzzle velocity of only 2,236fps.

Hornady Claimed LEVERevolution - 2,400fps: Energy at Muzzle - 2,046ft/lbs, Energy at 100yds - 1,701ft/lbs
Guns & Shooting LEVERevolution - 2,236fps: Energy at Muzzle - 1,776ft/lbs, Energy at 100yds - 1,467ft/lbs

So, while the LEVERevolution's 160grn 30-30 round shot out of a standard 20" barreled levergun generates more muzzle energy (1,776ft/lbs vs 1,678ft/lbs) and retains more energy at 100yds (1,467ft/lbs vs 1,076ft/lbs) than Buffalo Bore's larger diameter 357mag loads, the difference is now where near as large as many shooters believe. Therefore, I think it's clear that both Buffalo Bore's 158grn Heavy 357mag and Hornady's LEVERevolution 160grn 30-30 produce sufficient energy at 100yds out of a 20" levergun to legally and humanely hunt dear with. The 30-30 may have an edge out farther because of it's better ballistic properties but not anywhere near what is commonly thought.

[L_Killkenny]

Actually Steve you need to go back a re-read some posts. I'm the one posting HYSTERICAL ARGUEMENTS for the numbers IN FAVOR OF THE .357. It's JimBob that thinks the .30-30 is far and away better than the .357 and that teh .357 is unacceptable.

It's pretty obvious that any critter walkin ain't gonna know the difference between the 2 at 100 yards. More than likely at 150 too.

[Deja vu]

Gentlemen. You are forgetting that many of us come to this discussion with a different image of 'deer'. In the East and South where the deer are smaller and the shots are shorter, a proper 357mag levergun is probably a decent choice. On the other hand, our here in the West, the deer are much larger and the average shots are much longer and so a proper 357mag levergun is likely not going to get the meat on the table.

Hey I live in idaho (Near the Montana border). We have very big deer here and I kill them with a 357 magnum rifle on ocasion. The rule I set for my self is not to shoot out side of 100 yards.

They are great guns for here in the forrested area for an experienced hunter.

[COSteve]

Ours here in Colorado aren't small either. This one loves to hand around in my back yard.