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April 28, 2013, 11:42 AM | #76 |
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Thanks Al, I appreciate the citation, I knew there had been some sort of case but couldn't remember enough about it to even search.
Interesting to note none of the news reports mentioned it, champions of the first amendment that they are. Yes, I had kept up on the news reports and knew about the kids wearing the shirts, which is why I noted above that corrective actions are taking place. This sort of bullying by teachers is far more common than you think, and get's reported seldom. The administrators know it goes on, more than one has candidly admitted it to me. Because of union rules, tenure, etc., they cannot get rid of these problem individuals. These are rogue teachers so to speak. They don't know, or simply don't care about rules and student's rights. They are ideologues, with a focus that is different than your average teacher. I'll give you odds that the principal didn't need to be told which teacher it was who started this. My purpose was to educate folks about these circumstances so that they could fight the battle with their children as well.
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April 28, 2013, 11:43 AM | #77 | ||
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The school decided to involve LE. And, the Police have latitude not to arrest, unless the kid poses a threat, or, unless they have a complainant who is willing to press charges, and follow through. Given the charge, it appears the school was initially willing to do just that, then saw retrospectively that they were wrong, and backed away. Quote:
ETA: Schools are supposed to be about education, that process involves more than just absorbing material, it requires creativity, and self expression. If you remove those, or try and squash them, it stops being educating. IMO.
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April 28, 2013, 01:07 PM | #78 |
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For those of you that say what the shirt had on it was unimportant, imagine this - a black student wearing a Malcolm X t-shirt and told to reverse it. Malcolm X was a convicted felon and black separatist; would his picture not be "disruptive"? Perhaps a Hispanic youth and a Che Guevara t-shirt? Communist murderer, very disruptive.
It's because of the targeted youth and targeted group that it becomes politically acceptable to attack, as there are two groups of people who are not only not protected from discrimination, but actively targeted by every level - smokers and gun owners. This was pure politics, and as pointed out, the student and hundreds of his buddies showed up in NRA t-shirts without incident, because the school knew it had screwed up. Yes, I believe the student's family could certainly file a lawsuit, and should. |
April 28, 2013, 04:32 PM | #79 | |
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So the question then is whether or not the shirt can be considered disruptive or not. Obviously, nobody here will think so as we all support the topic.
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April 28, 2013, 04:50 PM | #80 | |
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My money is on the teacher who cried foul during lunch after it had been worn 1/2 the day. |
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April 28, 2013, 05:57 PM | #81 | ||
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So what's your point? If the dress code prohibits pink sneakers for guys and I show up wearing red sneakers and they order me to remove them, how have I violated the dress code? Last edited by Aguila Blanca; April 28, 2013 at 06:07 PM. |
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April 28, 2013, 07:36 PM | #82 | |
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To that proof, I offered not case law, but real life, in the form of many other students wearing the same style of T-Shirts that started this whole thing. A mere 2 days later! If there was a violation of the dress codes, or if this somehow disrupted the educational process, then each and every kid who wore the shirt, last Monday, was guilty of a criminal violation. Yet, and still, nothing happened. You are aware that the "obstruction" charge was dropped? That the only charge still existing is the "Disruption of the Educational Process" charge? That the prosecutor is still debating if that charge even holds water? |
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April 28, 2013, 08:00 PM | #83 | |
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West Virginia teen arrested for wearing NRA shirt to school
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April 28, 2013, 09:25 PM | #84 | |
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April 28, 2013, 10:46 PM | #85 |
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^Either way its not the kind of thing that should be used on a kid in a criminal court.
Shame on all of them. |
April 29, 2013, 12:48 AM | #86 | |
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An update from last Monday: 8th grader suspended over t-shirt returns to school
The holding in Tinker is directly on point. From OYez: Quote:
It also turns out that Jared is Allen Laudieri's (YouTube - BlackRifleAR15) step son, so now it makes sense why the kid stood up for his rights. More news from Tuesday, the 23rd: Eighth-grader arrested over NRA shirt returns to school in same shirt - Yahoo! News |
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April 29, 2013, 08:15 AM | #87 |
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Al's yahoo link above contains a re-cap of recent school flubs related to guns at the bottom of the article, its worthy of its own separate read...
I particularly like the kindergarten girl terrorist who might shoot you with her HelloKitty bubble gun. Treating kids under 12 this way is far more troubling than any act they could pull off. |
April 30, 2013, 01:39 PM | #88 | ||
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This is the latest little snippet from WSAZ in West Virgina.
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Unfortunately they are mum as to specifically what the investigator is supposed to determine? EDIT:... I find the wording "...agreed to hire..." curious as it suggests they are under outside pressure and submitted to this. I wonder if it is pressure from the family and their lawyer and that they have come to an agreement to take certain actions based on findings from an outside investigation. A form of arbitration offered for "the good of all concerned" (my words here). EDIT: Amended... Quote:
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April 30, 2013, 08:56 PM | #89 |
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Al -- very interesting, the Charleston papers did not carry anything that I saw about other students wearing similar shirts, or that he wore an NRA shirt on his return to school.
Of course both local papers (one ostensibly R and one ostensibly D) are both anti-gun and owned by the same woman.
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April 30, 2013, 10:00 PM | #90 | |
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Defiance or obedience
I want to thank Double Naught Spy for presenting a reasonable case contrary to the general opinions of this thread.
I believe the situation was handled poorly by all involved, and support the student’s right to wear an NRA shirt to school. Let’s keep in mind, however, that we are talking about an 8th grader, typically a 14 year old, defying a teacher’s effort to enforce the dress code. In this situation the student should at most respectfully ask to walk with the teacher to an administrator for further consideration of the issue. To distinguish this case from Tinker (based upon the following holding only) Quote:
I am a teacher and know the dress code is a difficult issue. I once raised the issue of a student wearing a pot leaf and was told that until it caused a disruption he could wear it. I followed up with the student and the students’ parents. The student was later expelled for selling pot on campus. If we are trying to teach our kids how to support and defend the right to keep and bear arms, we should also teach them how to properly address the inevitable conflicts that will arise. An essential element in this effort is the recognition of and respect for authority, even when it is improperly exercised. Respecting authority is a first step to understanding how to effectively address the misuse or abuse of authority through appeal to a higher authority. |
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April 30, 2013, 10:33 PM | #91 |
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MTGreen, sorry, but no.
Your quoted example supports Laudieri. The armband kids were wearing armbands, but not behaving in deliberately disruptive ways. Laudieri was wearing a shirt, and was not behaving in a disruptive way. The disruption came when he refused, rightfully, to remove the shirt. Even then, he simply refused. Other kids may have started yelling, but that is not on Laudieri. The teacher was wrong; the teacher was also very likely to have been politically motivated. |
May 1, 2013, 06:43 AM | #92 |
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West Virginia teen arrested for wearing NRA shirt to school
I agree with MLeake.
I have not read one thing in the reports indicating what behavior of the student was disruptive, only that the teacher made an issue of it in the lunchroom and other students cheered. Also, it is not the 17 yr old student's responsibility to ask the teacher for a private discussion. The ADULT on the situation has the responsibility to avoid being disruptive since he initiates the confrontation. |
May 1, 2013, 07:20 AM | #93 |
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"Let’s keep in mind, however, that we are talking about an 8th grader, typically a 14 year old, defying a teacher’s effort to enforce the dress code."
Except that, by the school district's attorney's indication, there was NO dress code violation: "However, an attorney with Logan County Schools says the T-shirt did not violate the school’s rules." http://www.wsaz.com/news/wvnews/head...203875101.html The student in this case knew the dress code better than the employee, and yet was still penalized for it. No one sees anything wrong with that?
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May 1, 2013, 07:31 AM | #94 | |
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Deferring the issue to the administrator is purely the responsibility of the teacher, and that option should have been in the teachers mind before ever confronting the kid, and then utilized at the first sign of resistance. Pushing the issue to disruption is the teachers error. |
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May 1, 2013, 07:42 AM | #95 | |
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First, The establishment enforces the rules, be it the state, federal gov't or just a po-dunk local school district as they see fit and when it suits them. They also make them up on the fly when needed. Second, just because you are not violating any laws/rules does not mean you cannot be arrested. The kid did the right thing in not resisting the arrest or he would be facing some real difficult charges. Sometimes its just best to call the lawyers.
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May 1, 2013, 07:48 AM | #96 | |
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May 1, 2013, 08:49 AM | #97 |
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Dashunde,
I agree most 14 year olds do not know how to handle conflicts with adults, that is why students should obey directions from people in authority that are not harmful to themselves or others, and let their parents know so adults can handle the conflict. People without the ability to properly confront authority should not be encouraged to confront it. Last edited by MTGreen; May 1, 2013 at 09:10 AM. |
May 1, 2013, 09:07 AM | #98 | |
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But I will say that based on what i've read the student did nothing to violate school policy, so my opinion means nothing. |
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May 1, 2013, 09:11 AM | #99 |
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The NRA t-shirt is only divisive because of the media portrayal of the NRA. I fail to see how an organization that promotes responsible firearms ownership and practices is more politically disruptive than some punk kid wearing a Che t-shirt.
I see paralles between the NRA and Amnesty International in that they are both controversial organizations who attempt to do good, and such, can be targeted by politically motivated folks. The teacher in this case.
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May 1, 2013, 09:31 AM | #100 | |
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"Obstructing an officer" by failing to do the arbitrary thing he wants you to do reads very much like "contempt of cop".
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