What are the Pros and Cons of the .45 ACP?

[T.Chaney]

Well,I thought it over and can not come up with any cons.I may be biased since my primary EDC is a 1911.

[DAVID NANCARROW]

As I promised you I got ahold of a copy of the 1983 GunDigest in regards to its evaluation of the Mythical Thompson Tests and here are some shocking facts that prove once and for all how totally invalid the Thompson tests really were.

Did you know that only 13 animals were shot and-------

1. That more animals were shot with the .45 calibers making the statistical outcome irrelevent.
A. 8 were shot with the .45 calibers.
B. 2 were shot with the .30 Luger.
C. 1 was shot, thats right just only 1 was shot, with the 9mm, the 38 ACP and 38 long colt.

AS YOU CAN SEE THE EXPERIMENTERS WERE ALREADY DESPERATE TO STACK THE TEST RESULTS IN FAVOR OF THE BIGGER CARTRIDGES. AS I SAID BEFORE THEY DEFINATELY HAD AN AGENDA RIGHT FROM THE BEGINNING OF THE TEST.

2.The .45 calibers were also given the advantage of using expanding bullets as well as solid bullets(the smaller bullets were not tested with expanding bullets just solid ones (ARE YOU READING THIS CAREFULLY: IF YOU THINK THAT OLD STYLE EXPANING BULLETS WERE SO INFERIOR TO WHAT WE HAVE TODAY!)

3. Later in the test after the .45 calibers had failed so miserably the testers shot the animals rapid fire and they never did this with the smaller calibers. ONCE AGAIN STACKING THE RESULTS IN FAVOR OF THE .45 CALIBERS.

4. AND HOW ABOUT THE BALLYHOO OF THE CADAVER TESTS. The smaller calibers busted up bone just well as the bigger calibers and in the case of the .45's some of the expanding bullets failed to penetrate adequately as the ranges were increased.

THIS IS EXACTLY WHAT I PREVIOUSLY POSTED IN REGARDS TO THE SHOOTING THAT WAS TOLD TO ME BY THE POLICE OFFICER THAT WAS THERE. NAMELY THAT AS THE RANGES INCREASE THE LETHALITY OF THE .45 CALIBER GOES DOWN BECAUSE OF A SLOWING DOWN OF THE BULLET THAT MAY NOT ENABLE IT TO ADEQUATELY PENETRATE. ALSO THAT AS THE DIAMETER OF THE BULLET INCREASES ITS ABILITY TO PENETRATE GOES DOWN AS COMPARED TO THE SMALLER CALIBERS IF VELOCITIES ARE NEARLY EQUAL BETWEEN THE TWO ROUNDS. AS THE VELOCITY GOES UP AND THE CALIBER GOES DOWN THE PENETRATION GOES DRAMITACALLY UP AS WAS PROVEN WAY BACK IN 1945 IN THE U.S. MILITARY TEST TRIAL OF THE 9MM V/S THE .45ACP.

Have a link to this, Manta? BTW, Julian Hatcher had no trouble with the test at all, and seems to be a pretty good authority. In addition, whoever the author of this piece is, they missed a few things as to what the test was actually testing for, or have some sort of bias as to the cartridges tested.

[manta49]

Have a link to this, Manta? BTW, Julian Hatcher had no trouble with the test at all, and seems to be a pretty good authority. In addition, whoever the author of this piece is, they missed a few things as to what the test was actually testing for, or have some sort of bias as to the cartridges tested.

I am having trouble finding it, i think it was a article in GunDigest.

[JERRYS.]

con? the .45acp semi-auto pistol makes a lousy pocket gun, for those with normal sized pockets that is.

[cliffhangernlv]

Originally Posted by 44 AMP

I agree with every part of this, except for the Sig being a "big" pistol.

It's not. Its the approximate size of a Commander, considerably smaller than a Government Model 1911A1.

I realize that attitudes change over time, and the "small" Sig seems big compared to the more recent micro mini compact models out there. I don't consider the P220 to be "big". A 1911A1 is "standard" size, a 7.5" Ruger Blackhawk is "big", and a Desert Eagle is "freakln' HUGE", in my book.

Over 100 years ago the Army spec'd a caliber, bullet weight and speed that they knew from experience would stop a man, or a horse (with a proper hit).

It will still do that today, although we seldom have the need to stop horses anymore. TO me, the biggest drawback to the .45ACP is the myth that it is a magic bullet. Nothing is, nor can be.

The .45 has a long history of working pretty well (not perfectly but pretty well) with the least effective bullet possible (in terms of stopping power,) the FMJ RN.

It suits my needs, and I like it. That's good enough for me. Its fine with me if you have a different opinion. I'm not in your shoes, and won't tell you what's best for you. Do the same for me, and we'll get along fine.

My baby Sig is a 938. Big by comparison.

[4runnerman]

Low pressure load, Fun to shoot, very mild recoil, accurate. In a 1911-It is the IMHO cream of the crop. I won't get into the caliber war as is a test in futility.
9MM, 40 SW 45 ACP, They are all deadly in there own respects, No one is better then the other. Now the 380-Hmmm- Not sure I would go there.

[Mike Irwin]

"I can't even think of a truly bad .45 ACP semi-auto"

Just about anything by AMT.

The worst most expensive handguns ever manufactured.

[Mike Irwin]

A lot has been said, and argued about, the Thompson-LaGarde tests over the years.

As noted, the information, such as it was, was largely worthless given its statistical irrelevancy.

But, at least it was an attempt to see what the effects might be, so it was a step in the right direction.

However, I do have some issues with some of the assessments...

"AS YOU CAN SEE THE EXPERIMENTERS WERE ALREADY DESPERATE TO STACK THE TEST RESULTS IN FAVOR OF THE BIGGER CARTRIDGES."

Nothing of the sort, and to claim such completely ignores the statements by Thompson and LaGarde.

The reason they shot so many more steers with the larger calibers is the simple fact that the larger bullets caused incapacitate a LOT faster than the smaller, less powerful, rounds.

Even T&L recognized that continuing to shoot at an animal that has collapsed with a different round would be absolutely meaningless.

Then there's the simple fact that T&L were apparently trying to conduct this testing with virtually no money behind them, and they apparently had to pay for the critters that they shot.

If a steer didn't go down with one cartridge, use the next one on it as well, that way you don't have to pay for an extra steer.


"The .45 calibers were also given the advantage of using expanding bullets as well as solid bullets(the smaller bullets were not tested with expanding bullets just solid ones (ARE YOU READING THIS CAREFULLY: IF YOU THINK THAT OLD STYLE EXPANING BULLETS WERE SO INFERIOR TO WHAT WE HAVE TODAY!)"

Yeah.... Wrong.

Thompson and LaGarde used COMMERCIALLY OR MILITARILY AVAILABLE ammunition of the type typical to that particular cartridge.

For the revolver rounds, that meant lead bullets. For the semi-autos, that meant, universally, jacketed rounds. In 1904, jacketed bullets for revolver rounds were pretty much unheard of. Every military that used revolvers still used lead bullets; every military that was using semi-autos at that time was using jacketed bullets.

It also didn't mean hollow points vs solids. Hollow point bullets were still exceptionally uncommon in handgun rounds at the time, and for the most part would remain so until well after both Thompson and LaGarde were dead.



"THIS IS EXACTLY WHAT I PREVIOUSLY POSTED IN REGARDS TO THE SHOOTING THAT WAS TOLD TO ME BY THE POLICE OFFICER THAT WAS THERE. NAMELY THAT AS THE RANGES INCREASE THE LETHALITY OF THE .45 CALIBER GOES DOWN BECAUSE OF A SLOWING DOWN OF THE BULLET THAT MAY NOT ENABLE IT TO ADEQUATELY PENETRATE. ALSO THAT AS THE DIAMETER OF THE BULLET INCREASES ITS ABILITY TO PENETRATE GOES DOWN AS COMPARED TO THE SMALLER CALIBERS IF VELOCITIES ARE NEARLY EQUAL BETWEEN THE TWO ROUNDS. AS THE VELOCITY GOES UP AND THE CALIBER GOES DOWN THE PENETRATION GOES DRAMITACALLY UP AS WAS PROVEN WAY BACK IN 1945 IN THE U.S. MILITARY TEST TRIAL OF THE 9MM V/S THE .45ACP."

Yes, and.....

SO WHAT?

We're talking about HANDGUNS. Short range weapons. We're not talking about taking 500 yard sniper shots with a 1911.

Even the military in 1904 recognized that simple fact. The US military had pretty much given up on the concept of the "handgun carbine" after 1855, recognizing that attaching a fragile stock to a pistol does NOT make it a carbine.

It took the Germans, British, Poles, Chinese, etc., a lot longer to figure that out.

[Dusty Rivers]

see attached link. Makes an interesting read on recoil.

http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/201...istols-part-1/

[David R]

*****************************************************************
LETHALITY OF THE .45 CALIBER GOES DOWN BECAUSE OF A SLOWING DOWN OF THE BULLET
******************************************************************

I do not plan on using my 45 more than the standard 7 yards. How much does it slow down?

David

[Mike Irwin]

"I do not plan on using my 45 more than the standard 7 yards. How much does it slow down?"

Silly man! At 7 yards a .45 has actually started backing up!

[manta49]

I do not plan on using my 45 more than the standard 7 yards. How much does it slow down?

What if someone is shooting at you from 25 yards or more , do you ask them to come a bit closer 7 yards if possible.

[Branko]

I doubt you'll often be shooting at armed assailants at ranges exceeding a hundred yards where the limitations of pistol ballistics would be a factor.

[rodfac]

Pro: Big bullet, lots of smack, comforting in glove box or in the hand when the chips are down. 100+ years of doing the job when it REALLY needed doing. Lots of places to buy ammunition, even out of the way places, world wide. Lots of bullet choices, some of which actually might mitigate against the recoil negatives. Nowadays, you can find it in a variety of pistols with operating systems to suit your needs: SA only, DA/SA, or DA only.

Cons: decreased capacity in similar arms if you feel you need half a box of ammunition in a self defense weapon. Guns are generally the size of duty pistols too...tho there are some notable exceptions. Recoil is higher for 2nd shots...but manageable with training. It takes a strong grip, in my opinion, to master any .45 cal. pistol, one that can be learned but maybe beyond some of weak stature or those diminished by age or infirmity.

All in all, it's a caliber for one man who's familiar, not for every man certainly. Were I to have a choice and someone else did the buying, I'd pick it to defend my family every time.

Rod

[BIG P]

American as apple pie.carried 45 auto 30 years.never felt under gunned at all.far as cons go never had any,My 45ACP has had my back for years AND you dont talk crap about a buddy like that 45ACP GET U SOME!!!!

[CaptainO]

The .45 ACP is fine. I can use the 10mm auto in a reduced load for the same purpose. Trust me, it is just as deadly. In a snub-nosed (3" barrel) revolver, I employ the .44 S&W Special. The ballistics are similar, and it can be just as efficient.

God Bless the USA, John Moses Browning and Smith and Wesson! Irving Stone and Whit Collins (co-creators of the 10mm Auto Cartridge) aren't bad either!

[P71pilot]

The .45acp is my second favorite handgun cartridge (first being 10mm)

In a quality 1911, it really is hard to not shoot well, especially after practice. With my Springfield loaded model 1911 I have managed a 5 shot group of 2" at a measured 20yds standing at an indoor range. Not slow fire but not rapid fire either. Also kneeling have managed to hit a 6x6 post (could have been 8x8) 4/5 shots for two magazines (8 of 10 shots) at about 65-75yds.

People say "with modern bullet technology the 9mm has come a long way and is much more deadly than it was 50 years ago" this is correct, but the same applies to the .45acp. There are bullets that expand to about .8" and still can penetrate 12" of ballistic gel. On the other end of the spectrum you can shoot a 255/260gr bullet at about 900fps without going above SAAMI stanard pressure ratings. There are reloaders who can launch a 300gr slug at 800-850fps and just barely be in the +p territory. The .45 is extremely useful, and can be loaded to open up like a parachute and cause extreme shallow trauma, or loaded for big heavy animals and penetrate several feet of flesh and bone.

Love the .45 automatic colt pistol

[Schnitzjr]

I waited a long time to shoot .45 because of the cost. I broke down and bought a 1911....then a P220, another P220, 4566TSW, XDS, etc.

Pros: it's fun to shoot. Period. I'm also very accurate with it.. Matter of fact, I'm more accurate shooting any of my 45's than most of my 9's and I'm not a bad shot.
Easy to reload.
Price for .45 has come down a bit the last couple years.

Cons: limits capacity. Full sized 45's hold 7-8 rounds in the mag opposed to 15+ in plastic 9's.
I generally avoid ballistic discussions but a lot of R&D has gone in to making the 9mm a very effective defensive round, particularly in short barrel guns. The .45 loses a lot of speed in a 3"-4" barrel.

[David R]

200 SWC Max load of Red Dot 929 fps. in my 5", 845 fps. in my 3.5" officers lightweight ACP.

[CajunBass]

In my very limited experience with the 45, the only real advantage I saw was that it made "major" caliber in my IPSC club and the 9mm didn't.

That and the larger hole would sometimes catch the next higher scoring ring where the smaller bullet would be scored at the lower level. Those always hurt.

[njr]

I like the hardcast SWC buffalo bore for barrier penetration in 45acp.

However looking at 10 round mag cost I may switch to Beretta 92 because the mag cost is reasonable.

The 1911 is no longer the military's general issue so the aftermarket costs are no longer reasonable.

[Tucker 1371]

I was a .45 ACP guy until about a year ago. The body of evidence collected by various professionals over the years just doesn't support a difference in "stopping power" between any of the common auto pistol calibers. I still love my 1911, and I'm confident that it would serve me well if I ever needed it to. But these days I tend to favor higher capacity and lower recoil for more and quicker follow up shots.

[FNS-40]

Expensive to shoot. Heavier than .40s&w

[surveyor]

Pros, nice to shoot out of a1911 or n frame s&w
Easy to reload
Same powder charge as what I put in the 9 mm for target loads
Easy to separate brass,

Cons
Small primer brass in some cases
.03 rd more cost to load cast than 9 or 38

[Don P]

Seriously, I love the .45, especially when it comes out of a full-sized pistol. The thing I don't like is the cost of enjoying it.

That's the reason to have one of them fancy gizmo's that you can reload ammo on.