1-day womans SD course, cause more harm than good?

braindead0 · June 12, 2002, 08:48 AM

Just looking for opinions. A local kickboxing center has apparantly been giving one or two day womans SD courses. This seems more like a means to recruit more students than any meaningful SD training.

They do appear to be focusing on grappling defense, but from my viewpoint this type of thing may lead to someone putting themselves in a bad situation because they've "taken this course and know how to defend themselves".

Any thoughts or opinions?

qkrthnu · June 12, 2002, 08:57 AM

Well, IMHO, the same type of person that would actually believe that they've "taken this course and know how to defend themselves" after attending a 1 day course without further practice would also believe that they can properly defend themselves with a gun and never practicing with it.

braindead0 · June 12, 2002, 09:02 AM

True, the magic talisman syndrome. I just hope the teacher(s) in those classes stress that this is going to work like the ab-buster that's in the hall closet.

Erich · June 12, 2002, 09:05 AM

I don't think you'll see that attitude if the class does its job properly. They probably spend lots of time going over how discretion is the better part of personal protection, and in one day they're not going to teach much more than "break the hold and run like heck." Besides, I think that women are relatively more immune from that macho "I can handle myself" attitude that might lead a dude into a scary situation.

I think it's good for any gal to learn what she can to get the idea that there is some quick stuff she can do to put her in a better situation in an attack.

braindead0 · June 12, 2002, 09:15 AM

I don't believe there is any quick stuff that a woman can learn in a one to two day course that will do anything but piss off a determined attacker.

IMO of course.

Gomez · June 12, 2002, 10:20 AM

braindead0:

I've got to disagree with you. How long should it take to learn some effective self defense techniques? I can't comment on what the school you're refering to is teaching, obviously, but I can say that if the skillset is kept small and the program is well arranged, you most certainly can learn effective tools, tactics and targets in a one or two day format.

I would go so far as to say that you can learn more effectively in a short, intense class than in a more spread out, longer duration program.

Betty · June 12, 2002, 11:05 AM

There's nothing wrong with learning a few moves as long the trainee has the right mindset and the physical ability to go along with it. My baton class was done in less than a day.

A lady I know takes tae kwon do on a regular basis and boasted to her cop husband that she could "take him out" barehanded. He said, "Sure, give it a try" and stood there. Up flew her leg, he calmly grabbed it, and toppled her over on the floor.

braindead0 · June 12, 2002, 11:11 AM

Quote:

lady I know takes tae kwon do on a regular basis and boasted to her cop husband that she could "take him out"

This is just the kind of thing that should be avoided I'd think ;-)

I agree though that if the instructor makes sure that the students understand these moves are not a magic wand.

KSFreeman · June 12, 2002, 12:21 PM

runt, she started a fight??? WTH? Obviously she has learned nothing from her classes.

I suggest several courses from the wise man in Tejas. "Avoidance is best."

Betty · June 12, 2002, 12:33 PM

No, she didn't start a "fight"; she bragged to her husband that she could physically take him out with the skills she learned in tae kwon do, so her husband said to give it her best shot. She kicked and he grabbed her leg,shoved her leg back, toppling her over. It definitely made her think twice about being overly-confident.

Her husband was my baton instructor - one giant cop.

braindead0 · June 12, 2002, 12:44 PM

This certainly turned into an interesting topic

I think this type of class can too easily play into the 'quick fix' attitude that many people seem to have. And of course, far too many martial arts places that I've seen are entirely too devoted to getting more students (and $$$).

It's funny to hear from friends that take classes at dojo 'X' and brag about all the trophies their teacher has... I think the best teacher I ever knew didn't even have a storefront, ran his classes from a small building in an industrial complex.

Gomez · June 12, 2002, 02:49 PM

I said this, just the other day on Glocktalk:

The most important skills [Awareness, Avoidance & Deescalation] should be covered in every defensive skills class regardless of whether it's a "gun" class, a "knife" class or whatever. If that's being done, you'll probably get the most use from an unarmed class, since you'll probably be justified in putting your hands on more people than you'll be justified to shoot.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
If all a self defense class teaches is physical techniques and doesn't address mindset/awareness issues, then you are right, it will cause more problems than it solves. If any program preaches that it is 100% effective, run away screaming. Nothing is 100%. There is a local dojo which is laughingly refered to as Abe's [name changed to protect the guilty] School of Self Promotion because "next week" you will learn the amazingly effective "quacking duck defense". Always, next week. Always.

If a program covers mindset/awareness/ect and then teaches a small versatile skillset I beleive that students of such a program will be heads-and-tails beyond most martial artists in real-world defensive capability.

Trophies,huh! The most amazing instructor I ever trained with was a Pekiti Tersia guy. No trophies, no belts, no friggin' building. We trained in a park across the street from his house. Rain or shine, hot or cold. People definitely get wrapped around the axles over trophies, flowing robes, and foreign languages. I don't get that.

As far as small versatile skillsets & concepts;

Aggressive forward pressure

Moving Off-line & covering

Palm Heels & Elbows [depending on range]

SPEAR/Wedge/Tongat Silat Interception

Target the Head/Neck/Throat. Pretty much everything from the sternal notch up and from any orientation [360 degrees]. Your intent should be to cause as much damage to the brain housing group as you possibly can.

C.R.Sam · June 12, 2002, 03:51 PM

Agree with Erick
Not going to make an accomplished defender in one day.
Could give them the mindset that they don't have to be sheep and give them the incentive to learn to use their tools....brain for starters.

Sam

ATeaM · June 12, 2002, 04:11 PM

Great topic !

My bosses daughter just found out I do Muay Thai, know she's been hounding me to help her out with her women's defense class. She explained that she works with former rape and sexual abuse victims, and that the class is designed to give them confidence should they encounter another situation. Now, the way she described it this was a "workshop" and not a serious day in day out self defense course. She wanted me to dress up in a protective suit, paw at them and let them knee me in the nuts. While I think what she is doing is admirable, she's giving these women a false boost of confidence. I'm obviously not going to beat on these women, but until they are confronted and threatened in a serious manner they are never going to learn how to cope. IMHO, this fight or flight response, is born in you, it cannot be taught. The only way it can be overcome is through experience, otherwise all their training will be lost on the spot. This is difficult to do without testosterone, and I'm not wanting to bash women, because it's not easy for anyone to overcome the natural adrenal response when threatened. The biggest boost of confidence ?...

Duh !

Get a gun lady. That's what I want to say but, well...I like my job

.

Erich · June 13, 2002, 09:10 AM

Yeah, ATeaM, a pound-and-a-half of steel in hand can even up a lot of physical differences. If it's used correctly, of course.

From having handled legal aspects of a lot of violent crimes (including rapes), I can tell you that most of the (alleged) perps could have been dissuaded by the average woman applying proper force (a mere kubaton would have helped in many) in a determined way.

I don't see any reason why a proper class couldn't get some awareness of this into women's heads in a single day. The big thing is, as others have observed, making sure it's the proper class.

braindead0 · June 13, 2002, 09:15 AM

I still think that the overall effect of a single day class wouldn't necessarily put the woman into a better tactical situation.

I do think that it could lead to more training, which should start shifting the balance in favor of the victim. Perhaps it's a start in weaning people off reliance on the police...

Erich · June 13, 2002, 10:34 AM

Well, I guess we've about said it all . . .

bikeguy · June 13, 2002, 12:32 PM

My wife took a womens self defense course. The first night the instructor told a student to try and take her purse. The student reluctantly approached the instructor and reached for her purse. The instructor dropped the purse and ran.

My wife learned many valuable things in the class, including how to defend herself if she had no other options and that it is always foolish to "fight" with a man. The essence of the class was scream and run if you can - hurt, scream, and then attempt to run if you can't.

braindead0 · June 13, 2002, 01:16 PM

This particular one day class that I saw was sponsored by the International Kickboxing Association, and focused on hold releases.

I like the one you're describing however, sounds like a good middle ground. Probably more interesting as well.

This particular class appeared to be instructed by men as well, which seemed a bit odd to me. Sounds more like marketing meeting to me.

D.W. Drang · June 13, 2002, 02:11 PM

C'mon, now, all you need is a BBQ brush...

Don Gwinn · June 13, 2002, 11:19 PM

How many women take the one-day class as a lark and end up training on a more regular basis as a result? (Women who would otherwise not have trained.) I don't see how it can do any harm to someone who is realistic. It's still that much more knowledge than you had before.

bikeguy · June 14, 2002, 03:38 PM

Don-

My wife, for one! She is taking a regular class now and really enjoys it.

Don Gwinn · June 15, 2002, 01:56 AM

Well, then, it worked like a charm for her!

IvyGroves · June 18, 2002, 03:17 PM

Most of them are designed for familiarization, and the students and instructors should know that they are not the definitive answer to self-defense.

I teach the NRA's Basic Pistol class to a lot of women, and never once have I let a student leave the class thinking that they know everything they need to know to protect themselves. It is a class to show them a different option, usually one they have never really thought much about before. Most of the women are afraid to shoot a gun. It is my goal to show them that a firearm is just another tool - just like their dishwasher and their toaster - but far more useful.

A lot of women don't think that it is possible to defend themselves. (Now where could they have heard THAT message?) These classes only show them the options, and practice and additional skills are needed.

No single class or single method of self defense for that matter, will protect everyone in all situations. These introductory seminars and classes are just a beginning.

June 12, 2002, 08:48 AM	#1
braindead0 Senior Member Join Date: February 28, 2002 Location: Canton, Oh Posts: 896	1-day womans SD course, cause more harm than good? Just looking for opinions. A local kickboxing center has apparantly been giving one or two day womans SD courses. This seems more like a means to recruit more students than any meaningful SD training. They do appear to be focusing on grappling defense, but from my viewpoint this type of thing may lead to someone putting themselves in a bad situation because they've "taken this course and know how to defend themselves". Any thoughts or opinions? __________________ DoD# 2223 Meum scapha volitare plenum anguillae

June 12, 2002, 09:02 AM	#3
braindead0 Senior Member Join Date: February 28, 2002 Location: Canton, Oh Posts: 896	True, the magic talisman syndrome. I just hope the teacher(s) in those classes stress that this is going to work like the ab-buster that's in the hall closet. __________________ DoD# 2223 Meum scapha volitare plenum anguillae

June 12, 2002, 09:15 AM	#5
braindead0 Senior Member Join Date: February 28, 2002 Location: Canton, Oh Posts: 896	I don't believe there is any quick stuff that a woman can learn in a one to two day course that will do anything but piss off a determined attacker. IMO of course. __________________ DoD# 2223 Meum scapha volitare plenum anguillae

June 12, 2002, 10:20 AM	#6
Gomez Senior Member Join Date: May 26, 2002 Location: Baton Rouge, LA Posts: 297	braindead0: I've got to disagree with you. How long should it take to learn some effective self defense techniques? I can't comment on what the school you're refering to is teaching, obviously, but I can say that if the skillset is kept small and the program is well arranged, you most certainly can learn effective tools, tactics and targets in a one or two day format. I would go so far as to say that you can learn more effectively in a short, intense class than in a more spread out, longer duration program. __________________ "Not only do these people reach erroneous conclusions and make unfortunate choices, but their incompetence robs them of the metacognitive ability to realize it." --Kruger & Dunning

June 12, 2002, 12:21 PM	#9
KSFreeman Senior Member Join Date: June 9, 2001 Location: Lafayette, Indiana--American-occupied America Posts: 5,418	runt, she started a fight??? WTH? Obviously she has learned nothing from her classes. I suggest several courses from the wise man in Tejas. "Avoidance is best." __________________ "Arguments of policy must give way to a constitutional command." Payton v. New York, 445 U.S. 573, 602 (1980).

June 12, 2002, 08:57 AM	#2
qkrthnu Senior Member Join Date: April 16, 2002 Posts: 340	Well, IMHO, the same type of person that would actually believe that they've "taken this course and know how to defend themselves" after attending a 1 day course without further practice would also believe that they can properly defend themselves with a gun and never practicing with it.

June 12, 2002, 09:05 AM	#4
Erich Senior Member Join Date: January 8, 1999 Location: Albuquerque, NM, USA Posts: 2,543	I don't think you'll see that attitude if the class does its job properly. They probably spend lots of time going over how discretion is the better part of personal protection, and in one day they're not going to teach much more than "break the hold and run like heck." Besides, I think that women are relatively more immune from that macho "I can handle myself" attitude that might lead a dude into a scary situation. I think it's good for any gal to learn what she can to get the idea that there is some quick stuff she can do to put her in a better situation in an attack.

June 12, 2002, 11:05 AM	#7
Betty Senior Member Join Date: March 22, 2000 Location: southern U.S. Posts: 1,807	There's nothing wrong with learning a few moves as long the trainee has the right mindset and the physical ability to go along with it. My baton class was done in less than a day. A lady I know takes tae kwon do on a regular basis and boasted to her cop husband that she could "take him out" barehanded. He said, "Sure, give it a try" and stood there. Up flew her leg, he calmly grabbed it, and toppled her over on the floor.

June 12, 2002, 12:33 PM	#10
Betty Senior Member Join Date: March 22, 2000 Location: southern U.S. Posts: 1,807	No, she didn't start a "fight"; she bragged to her husband that she could physically take him out with the skills she learned in tae kwon do, so her husband said to give it her best shot. She kicked and he grabbed her leg,shoved her leg back, toppling her over. It definitely made her think twice about being overly-confident. Her husband was my baton instructor - one giant cop.

June 12, 2002, 12:44 PM	#11
braindead0 Senior Member Join Date: February 28, 2002 Location: Canton, Oh Posts: 896	This certainly turned into an interesting topic I think this type of class can too easily play into the 'quick fix' attitude that many people seem to have. And of course, far too many martial arts places that I've seen are entirely too devoted to getting more students (and $$$). It's funny to hear from friends that take classes at dojo 'X' and brag about all the trophies their teacher has... I think the best teacher I ever knew didn't even have a storefront, ran his classes from a small building in an industrial complex. __________________ DoD# 2223 Meum scapha volitare plenum anguillae

June 12, 2002, 02:49 PM	#12
Gomez Senior Member Join Date: May 26, 2002 Location: Baton Rouge, LA Posts: 297	I said this, just the other day on Glocktalk: The most important skills [Awareness, Avoidance & Deescalation] should be covered in every defensive skills class regardless of whether it's a "gun" class, a "knife" class or whatever. If that's being done, you'll probably get the most use from an unarmed class, since you'll probably be justified in putting your hands on more people than you'll be justified to shoot. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ If all a self defense class teaches is physical techniques and doesn't address mindset/awareness issues, then you are right, it will cause more problems than it solves. If any program preaches that it is 100% effective, run away screaming. Nothing is 100%. There is a local dojo which is laughingly refered to as Abe's [name changed to protect the guilty] School of Self Promotion because "next week" you will learn the amazingly effective "quacking duck defense". Always, next week. Always. If a program covers mindset/awareness/ect and then teaches a small versatile skillset I beleive that students of such a program will be heads-and-tails beyond most martial artists in real-world defensive capability. Trophies,huh! The most amazing instructor I ever trained with was a Pekiti Tersia guy. No trophies, no belts, no friggin' building. We trained in a park across the street from his house. Rain or shine, hot or cold. People definitely get wrapped around the axles over trophies, flowing robes, and foreign languages. I don't get that. As far as small versatile skillsets & concepts; Aggressive forward pressure Moving Off-line & covering Palm Heels & Elbows [depending on range] SPEAR/Wedge/Tongat Silat Interception Target the Head/Neck/Throat. Pretty much everything from the sternal notch up and from any orientation [360 degrees]. Your intent should be to cause as much damage to the brain housing group as you possibly can. __________________ "Not only do these people reach erroneous conclusions and make unfortunate choices, but their incompetence robs them of the metacognitive ability to realize it." --Kruger & Dunning

June 12, 2002, 03:51 PM	#13
C.R.Sam Senior Member Join Date: October 29, 1999 Location: Dewey, AZ Posts: 12,858	Agree with Erick Not going to make an accomplished defender in one day. Could give them the mindset that they don't have to be sheep and give them the incentive to learn to use their tools....brain for starters. Sam

June 12, 2002, 04:11 PM	#14
ATeaM Senior Member Join Date: March 2, 2001 Posts: 601	Great topic ! My bosses daughter just found out I do Muay Thai, know she's been hounding me to help her out with her women's defense class. She explained that she works with former rape and sexual abuse victims, and that the class is designed to give them confidence should they encounter another situation. Now, the way she described it this was a "workshop" and not a serious day in day out self defense course. She wanted me to dress up in a protective suit, paw at them and let them knee me in the nuts. While I think what she is doing is admirable, she's giving these women a false boost of confidence. I'm obviously not going to beat on these women, but until they are confronted and threatened in a serious manner they are never going to learn how to cope. IMHO, this fight or flight response, is born in you, it cannot be taught. The only way it can be overcome is through experience, otherwise all their training will be lost on the spot. This is difficult to do without testosterone, and I'm not wanting to bash women, because it's not easy for anyone to overcome the natural adrenal response when threatened. The biggest boost of confidence ?... Duh ! Get a gun lady. That's what I want to say but, well...I like my job .

June 13, 2002, 09:10 AM	#15
Erich Senior Member Join Date: January 8, 1999 Location: Albuquerque, NM, USA Posts: 2,543	Yeah, ATeaM, a pound-and-a-half of steel in hand can even up a lot of physical differences. If it's used correctly, of course. From having handled legal aspects of a lot of violent crimes (including rapes), I can tell you that most of the (alleged) perps could have been dissuaded by the average woman applying proper force (a mere kubaton would have helped in many) in a determined way. I don't see any reason why a proper class couldn't get some awareness of this into women's heads in a single day. The big thing is, as others have observed, making sure it's the proper class.

June 13, 2002, 09:15 AM	#16
braindead0 Senior Member Join Date: February 28, 2002 Location: Canton, Oh Posts: 896	I still think that the overall effect of a single day class wouldn't necessarily put the woman into a better tactical situation. I do think that it could lead to more training, which should start shifting the balance in favor of the victim. Perhaps it's a start in weaning people off reliance on the police... __________________ DoD# 2223 Meum scapha volitare plenum anguillae

June 13, 2002, 10:34 AM	#17
Erich Senior Member Join Date: January 8, 1999 Location: Albuquerque, NM, USA Posts: 2,543	Well, I guess we've about said it all . . .

June 13, 2002, 12:32 PM	#18
bikeguy Senior Member Join Date: October 16, 2001 Location: Georgia (North-East) Posts: 217	My wife took a womens self defense course. The first night the instructor told a student to try and take her purse. The student reluctantly approached the instructor and reached for her purse. The instructor dropped the purse and ran. My wife learned many valuable things in the class, including how to defend herself if she had no other options and that it is always foolish to "fight" with a man. The essence of the class was scream and run if you can - hurt, scream, and then attempt to run if you can't. __________________ I find that common sense just ain't all that common.

June 13, 2002, 01:16 PM	#19
braindead0 Senior Member Join Date: February 28, 2002 Location: Canton, Oh Posts: 896	This particular one day class that I saw was sponsored by the International Kickboxing Association, and focused on hold releases. I like the one you're describing however, sounds like a good middle ground. Probably more interesting as well. This particular class appeared to be instructed by men as well, which seemed a bit odd to me. Sounds more like marketing meeting to me. __________________ DoD# 2223 Meum scapha volitare plenum anguillae

June 13, 2002, 11:19 PM	#21
Don Gwinn Staff Emeritus Join Date: March 9, 2000 Location: Virden, IL Posts: 5,917	Yes, but How many women take the one-day class as a lark and end up training on a more regular basis as a result? (Women who would otherwise not have trained.) I don't see how it can do any harm to someone who is realistic. It's still that much more knowledge than you had before. __________________ ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Don Gwinn: Chicago Gun Rights Examiner

June 14, 2002, 03:38 PM	#22
bikeguy Senior Member Join Date: October 16, 2001 Location: Georgia (North-East) Posts: 217	Don- My wife, for one! She is taking a regular class now and really enjoys it. __________________ I find that common sense just ain't all that common.

June 15, 2002, 01:56 AM	#23
Don Gwinn Staff Emeritus Join Date: March 9, 2000 Location: Virden, IL Posts: 5,917	Well, then, it worked like a charm for her! __________________ ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Don Gwinn: Chicago Gun Rights Examiner

June 18, 2002, 03:17 PM	#24
IvyGroves Member Join Date: July 26, 2001 Location: Renton, WA Posts: 36	You might be missing the point of these "classes" Most of them are designed for familiarization, and the students and instructors should know that they are not the definitive answer to self-defense. I teach the NRA's Basic Pistol class to a lot of women, and never once have I let a student leave the class thinking that they know everything they need to know to protect themselves. It is a class to show them a different option, usually one they have never really thought much about before. Most of the women are afraid to shoot a gun. It is my goal to show them that a firearm is just another tool - just like their dishwasher and their toaster - but far more useful. A lot of women don't think that it is possible to defend themselves. (Now where could they have heard THAT message?) These classes only show them the options, and practice and additional skills are needed. No single class or single method of self defense for that matter, will protect everyone in all situations. These introductory seminars and classes are just a beginning.