Military issue Colt 25 auto? - Page 2

James K · June 11, 2012, 09:09 PM

Hi, JimPage,

I didn't say that a .22 could not be used as a survival gun, but I note you didn't have to use yours for that purpose. Could you have lived off the land in a foreign, hostile country, managed to escape the manhunt, and cover hundreds, perhaps thousands, of miles on foot to get to friendly territory?

If you could have done that, you are sure a better man than I am. I would probably have gone up to the first official-looking person I saw and put my hands up.

For that matter, handguns issued to pilots are more of a "peace of mind" thing than a real defensive gun. There probably have been a few cases where a downed airman did use his pistol or revolver to survive, but I suspect there were darned few.

Jim

RJay · June 24, 2012, 12:11 AM

In escape and evasion an offensive handgun makes a good hammer, you sure aren't going to shoot at any bad guys with it. A 22 automatic or a .22 revolver would be the best choice for a behind the lines ( or really anyplace ) survival gun. Not for offensive use, if they are coming at you with AK's, then it's Yes sir, No sir, 3 bags full. But if you manage to evade capture, they are still hunting you, the only game that you may see or have a chance at will be small, rabbits or other small mammals. a silenced .22 ( not really silenced but sound suppressed ) will give you a chance to harvest small game with out giving your location away. Way too many people , watching way too many movies think that in a escape and evasion mode, you want a large handgun ( if that's the only weapon you have ), on the contrary, a spear would be better than a .45., you want to survive and get home, not win the war for God and country all by your self. The only reason our Air Force pilots are issued a ..38 or 9MM. is to give them a warm fuzzy felling. They would be better off issuing suppressed Ruger MK 1's, JMHO and I have others.

JimPage · June 24, 2012, 08:38 AM

Although I did have to eject once from a century series fighter, it was in the US and no, I didn't have to use the 22 to survive. On the other hand, I would still prefer the 22 to survive. Fighting an enemy force with your pistol is pretty useless. You'd likely be killed.

While in combat I carried the issue Combat Masterpiece in .38spcl. It's main reason was as a sigalling device to attract rescue. We carried tracer ammunition for that purpose.

RJay · June 24, 2012, 12:15 PM

Being a Air-crewman on helicopters I always liked to wait until they crashed, then just step out, did that threes times, worked like a charm.

mete · June 25, 2012, 04:56 PM

Survival ? Ian Fleming ? If you relly want to read a very funny book see if you can find the one by Ian's brother Peter Fleming and his adventures in the wilds of the Amazon !!

**4V50 Gary** · June 27, 2012, 08:38 PM

Check out Charles W. Pate's book, U. S. Handguns of World War II, pages 175-185. Pate talks about the Colt Model N, 25 ACP being acquired by Army Ordnance Department's Springfield Ordnance District. Most of these small guns were obtained new or used from dealers.

The OSS was supplied by Army Ordnance and Ser #74631 and #186106 were requested from the Treasury Dept. (along with Ser #129044). The OSS had a hold-up shoulder holster that fired when the wearer's arms were raised (pics on p179).

Guns were marked "U.S.PROPERTY" and "UNITED STATES PROPERTY" on the right side of the frame above the trigger guard (p180). The author believes the markings were added post-war after the OSS returned them to the army. Pantographed markings are considered fake by the author who believes they were done not to defraud but to enhance them as gifts to friends (p181). Some have been seen with the ordnance escutcheon (Ser #402157, #407667, #407534) (p183).

James K · June 28, 2012, 11:00 AM

I did check Pate's book. Also, I have seen a couple of those .25 autos with Parkerized finish and USP markings. Both the finish and the markings were fake, quite obvious to the experienced eyeball.

I don't think I said the military never bought .25 Colts; they certainly did. I said I was highly skeptical of USP markings on them. Pate shows 5 .25 pistols with USP marks. One picture (407667, p. 175) is too dark to analyze. The other four (p. 182-183) are all, IMHO, fakes.

I won't go into detail here, but I have looked at those pictures and, as I said, a couple of other .25 pistols purporting to be USP marked and do not consider any of them genuine. Nor do I believe that any agency/unit put those USP markings on. Guns might have been returned to the factory and marked there, but then the markings should correspond to equivalent factory markings.

Jim

June 24, 2012, 12:11 AM	#27
RJay Senior Member Join Date: November 2, 2005 Location: Arizona Posts: 1,936	In escape and evasion an offensive handgun makes a good hammer, you sure aren't going to shoot at any bad guys with it. A 22 automatic or a .22 revolver would be the best choice for a behind the lines ( or really anyplace ) survival gun. Not for offensive use, if they are coming at you with AK's, then it's Yes sir, No sir, 3 bags full. But if you manage to evade capture, they are still hunting you, the only game that you may see or have a chance at will be small, rabbits or other small mammals. a silenced .22 ( not really silenced but sound suppressed ) will give you a chance to harvest small game with out giving your location away. Way too many people , watching way too many movies think that in a escape and evasion mode, you want a large handgun ( if that's the only weapon you have ), on the contrary, a spear would be better than a .45., you want to survive and get home, not win the war for God and country all by your self. The only reason our Air Force pilots are issued a ..38 or 9MM. is to give them a warm fuzzy felling. They would be better off issuing suppressed Ruger MK 1's, JMHO and I have others. __________________ Ron James

June 24, 2012, 08:38 AM	#28
JimPage Senior Member Join Date: February 21, 2010 Location: Rome, NY Posts: 941	Although I did have to eject once from a century series fighter, it was in the US and no, I didn't have to use the 22 to survive. On the other hand, I would still prefer the 22 to survive. Fighting an enemy force with your pistol is pretty useless. You'd likely be killed. While in combat I carried the issue Combat Masterpiece in .38spcl. It's main reason was as a sigalling device to attract rescue. We carried tracer ammunition for that purpose. __________________ Jim Page Cogito, ergo armatum sum

June 24, 2012, 12:15 PM	#29
RJay Senior Member Join Date: November 2, 2005 Location: Arizona Posts: 1,936	Being a Air-crewman on helicopters I always liked to wait until they crashed, then just step out, did that threes times, worked like a charm. __________________ Ron James

June 25, 2012, 04:56 PM	#30
mete Senior Member Join Date: June 14, 2004 Location: NY State Posts: 6,575	Survival ? Ian Fleming ? If you relly want to read a very funny book see if you can find the one by Ian's brother Peter Fleming and his adventures in the wilds of the Amazon !! __________________ And Watson , bring your revolver !

June 27, 2012, 08:38 PM	#31
4V50 Gary Staff Join Date: November 2, 1998 Location: Colorado Posts: 21,829	Check out Charles W. Pate's book, U. S. Handguns of World War II, pages 175-185. Pate talks about the Colt Model N, 25 ACP being acquired by Army Ordnance Department's Springfield Ordnance District. Most of these small guns were obtained new or used from dealers. The OSS was supplied by Army Ordnance and Ser #74631 and #186106 were requested from the Treasury Dept. (along with Ser #129044). The OSS had a hold-up shoulder holster that fired when the wearer's arms were raised (pics on p179). Guns were marked "U.S.PROPERTY" and "UNITED STATES PROPERTY" on the right side of the frame above the trigger guard (p180). The author believes the markings were added post-war after the OSS returned them to the army. Pantographed markings are considered fake by the author who believes they were done not to defraud but to enhance them as gifts to friends (p181). Some have been seen with the ordnance escutcheon (Ser #402157, #407667, #407534) (p183). __________________ Vigilantibus et non dormientibus jura subveniunt. *Molon Labe!*

June 11, 2012, 09:09 PM	#26
James K Member In Memoriam Join Date: March 17, 1999 Posts: 24,383	Hi, JimPage, I didn't say that a .22 could not be used as a survival gun, but I note you didn't have to use yours for that purpose. Could you have lived off the land in a foreign, hostile country, managed to escape the manhunt, and cover hundreds, perhaps thousands, of miles on foot to get to friendly territory? If you could have done that, you are sure a better man than I am. I would probably have gone up to the first official-looking person I saw and put my hands up. For that matter, handguns issued to pilots are more of a "peace of mind" thing than a real defensive gun. There probably have been a few cases where a downed airman did use his pistol or revolver to survive, but I suspect there were darned few. Jim

June 28, 2012, 11:00 AM	#32
James K Member In Memoriam Join Date: March 17, 1999 Posts: 24,383	I did check Pate's book. Also, I have seen a couple of those .25 autos with Parkerized finish and USP markings. Both the finish and the markings were fake, quite obvious to the experienced eyeball. I don't think I said the military never bought .25 Colts; they certainly did. I said I was highly skeptical of USP markings on them. Pate shows 5 .25 pistols with USP marks. One picture (407667, p. 175) is too dark to analyze. The other four (p. 182-183) are all, IMHO, fakes. I won't go into detail here, but I have looked at those pictures and, as I said, a couple of other .25 pistols purporting to be USP marked and do not consider any of them genuine. Nor do I believe that any agency/unit put those USP markings on. Guns might have been returned to the factory and marked there, but then the markings should correspond to equivalent factory markings. Jim

Thread Tools	Search this Thread
Show Printable Version Email this Page	Search this Thread: Advanced Search