Is carrying 2 guns overkill?

[SilentHitz]

So small that I choose not to prepare to that degree. Everyone should prepare for those events such that when they walk out the door they feel, well, prepared

The exact reason I stated earlier that after all the debate is done, it still boils down to personal choice...carry, or don't carry whatever you're comfortable with.

[Socrates]

http://www.fbi.gov/ucr/cius2007/offe...ime/index.html
http://www.fbi.gov/ucr/cius2007/offe...ion/index.html

I went through these statistics, and came up with those figures. It was NOT a 'misuse' of statistics. I was wondering what my chances would be in certain major cities of being a victim of violent crime. I did my statistics by adding the total for the violent crimes I consider violent, as does the FBI, added them up, and divided by the population of the cities. Some fun notes:
Orlando is REALLY dangerous. Yep, Disney ban on guns makes the entrance and exit, and staying around the park a free for all zone for Bad guys.

San Francisco is 1 in 17 per year. San Diego was 1 in 22, less then I thought. L.A. was in between.

[Playboypenguin]

I went through these statistics, and came up with those figures. It was NOT a 'misuse' of statistics. I was wondering what my chances would be in certain major cities of being a victim of violent crime. I did my statistics by adding the total for the violent crimes I consider violent, as does the FBI, added them up, and divided by the population of the cities. Some fun notes:

What formula did you use to come to this conclusion? What factors did you consider? Did you include all violent crimes or just physical assaults. Did you just add up the numbers and divide by the number of people or did you actually consider the time frame variable? Did you take domestic assaults into consideration or location of events?

[OldMarksman]

What circumstances and can you cite actuall examples [that arming a second person may prove useful] and not hypothetical situations?

Hypothetical scenarios and common sense. Risk analysis does not always require historical data. How do you think they designed safety and reliability provisions into the first spacecraft?

In any event, it would be close to impossible to accumulate data on encounters sorted by the number of armed citizens involved--and if one could, the number of variables involved would likely prevent drawing any meaningful conclusions. And that's before addressing whether one person may have provided a gun to another in any of the situations..

Is it not intuitively obvious to you that, if one were accosted by several people from more than one direction, having another armed person with him or her might improve the odds?

However, that's just one reason one might carry a second weapon. Redundancy in case of failure to fire, or having a back-up in case the first is taken or falls out of reach, would rank higher, in my view.

Violent crime can include vandalism and breaking and entering.

From the FBI Home Page:

Violent crime is composed of four offenses: murder and nonnegligent manslaughter, forcible rape, robbery, and aggravated assault. According to the Uniform Crime Reporting Program's definition, violent crimes involve force or threat of force.

You will see the same categorization in metropolitan crime reports.

I'm sure you are aware that robbery involves a forceful or threatening encounter with a person, and that theft, burglary, etc. are categorized as property crimes.

[Stevie-Ray]

Violent crime is composed of four offenses: murder and nonnegligent manslaughter, forcible rape, robbery, and aggravated assault. According to the Uniform Crime Reporting Program's definition, violent crimes involve force or threat of force.

And add just one more to that; simple assault, according to the United States Department of Justice Bureau of Justice Statistics. But only if you believe Wiki. Certainly nothing about vandalism.

[pax]

Note to Mas:

Go for it.

Remember to attack the argument, not the person who made it. No matter how richly he might deserve it!

*Sits back, grabs some popcorn, and gets the ban stick warmed up just in case people forget to stay reasonably civilized.*

pax

[Socrates]

Quote:
Violent crime is composed of four offenses: murder and nonnegligent manslaughter, forcible rape, robbery, and aggravated assault. According to the Uniform Crime Reporting Program's definition, violent crimes involve force or threat of force.

Take their figures for violent crime, divide that number into the population of the city, and you have your chance, per year, of being a victim of a violent crime.

[Mas Ayoob]

Playboy Penguin, your chosen nickname has something in common with your argument.

Neither is going to fly.

In your unprovoked attack on me earlier in this thread, you wrote:

I have read some of his work and he has always seemed more of a "yarn spinner" than a real journalist. A glaring lack of details or evidence always seem to be present in his stories.

A lot of the things he says are so over the top and not based in reality. When I try to find out what he is basing his opinions on I usually cannot find anything. I cannot even find where he has actually had any true gunfighting experience. I sometimes feel he is one of the greatest jokes ever played on the gun community...the ultimate example of "those that can, do...and those that can't, make a career out of talking about it."

Let's deconstruct that piece by piece. "A glaring lack of details or evidence always seem (sic) to be present in his stories." ??? If you were familiar with my work, you would know that I do nonfiction articles and books, and the only material I produce that could be called "stories" would be the Ayoob Files feature in each issue of American Handgunner magazine. These are narrative reconstructions of documented shooting incidents based on the recollections of survivors, witnesses, and investigators. The one in the current issue is typical: it contains the name of the shooter, the name of the deceased, the location of the shooting, the date (and, almost to the minute, the time) of the incident, and details down to the grain weight of the fatal bullets. "Glaring lack of details or evidence"???

You can't find anything to explain opinions or recommendations? Sounds like a reading comprehension issue or a profound lack of research on the topic you've discussed.

And, please, let's dispense with your pretense that this is about examples of the use of the second gun to arm another trusted, competent person. That was addressed for you on the second page of this thread, in Post #36, by Corpsman. The logic is obvious to anyone with the most rudimentary grasp of tactics/defense issues.

Penguin, on Page 7 of this thread in your post #36 you write, "I would never hand a loaded gun to a stranger. Surely he (Ayoob) has basis for claiming this is the right thing to do."

Your statement is a classic straw man argument, and untruthful to its core. Anyone can review this thread and see that no one suggested handing a loaded gun to a stranger, and I have never suggested that anywhere at any time. The concept of "backup gun to arm backup person" is transferring the weapon to someone you know is competent to use it, who is does not have their own weapon at the moment.

Your reasoning there would get you flunked out of a junior high school debate class. What were you thinking when you applied it in THIS forum, which is read by professionals?

Penguin, you need to get away from your trademark comic books for a little while, and perhaps refresh with a little adult education. Basic courses in research, critical thinking, and debate would be useful, and certainly an Introduction to Ethics class. If you can find a place with a pre-law or criminal justice curriculum, take a course that includes Standards of Proof. Here, you've attacked my credibility with zero to back up your allegations, and did so while hiding behind Internet anonymity at that. Yet you imply (Page 7 of this thread, post #148) that when YOUR credibility was attacked after you claimed to have been a police officer and military officer, it was sufficient for you to post what you called "...very cute pix of a young (you) in (your) uniform." :barf: When I stopped laughing, I had to wonder, "Is there a costume store next door to his comic book store?"

Get a grip, Penguin. Stay on topic. Learn to research before you write, and to think before you pull the trigger on a post. It will make you a better person, and one day you may even get past having to make unprovoked ad hominem attacks under an anonymous name.

[Playboypenguin]

I was wondering when you would finally weigh in.

[Socrates]

Hi Mas.

You never did stop by to shoot my .500 Max, and .475 Linebaugh. I'm sure I could take you for a trip up to Jack Huntingtons, and, we'd have LOTS of fun.



Also, I sent you Chucks contact information. He's getting better, but, the Glock in the spine is a REALLY bad injury, and, you were right, center of back carry is NOT a good idea. You never did contact him.

Playboy Penguin, your chosen nickname has something in common with your argument.

Neither is going to fly.

Now that's funny. Almost as funny as this:


We need folks like you in the industry, even if we don't agree with you on somethings....

Keep up the great work...

By the way:
After looking at the FBI shoot outs, and the penetration problems they had, what do you think of the idea of using ball ammo in 9mm, or even 45 ACP?
Seems more penetration is needed then the current SD ammo gives us...

If you all missed it: Mas has said he wants to shoot with me, but, when offered the chance, declined. Kind of affects his credibility with me, as well as PBP...

[Socrates]

I've been reading Mas's stuff for the last hour. It goes from very funny, in particular where he tries to claim it's American Handgunner, and their comments that have made Glocks so popular, to another article suggesting a manual safety on a Glock for LEO's...

His stories on actual cases are very entertaining...

[Wagonman]

I really enjoy Mas's articles and plan on attending his training course one of these days. I believe he is a Cop and a Expert Witness so I would put a lot of faith in his prose.

I also enjoy listening to his podcast----nice pipes

[Creature]

Playboypenguin wrote:

I was wondering when you would finally weigh in.

Cant say I am very surprised that you have no counter argument. If none is forthcoming, then perhaps a public apology is in order?

[OrlandoRecon]

Is carrying 2 guns overkill?





Hell No !!!

[BoulderTroll]

I think on patrol carrying two guns is a very smart thing to do. Off duty, I don't see a reason to.

[supergas452M]

Off duty, I don't see a reason to.

Well, since you feel that way and a lot of others do also and have made their points and opinions, I offer my response...

Do I always carry two guns? Actually, rarely. However, I absolutely recognize why doing so would in no way be considered overkill but in fact be a way to keep from being killed. More power to ya if you want to carry two or more.
Most of the time I feel OK carrying just one with extra ammo and a knife.

[Nnobby45]

Can't help but notice that those who make accusations against Mas seem to be abrasive in the majority of their posts, and one would have to consider that being the center of attention is what drives their participation in the forum--more so than offering a contribution.

Some are so determined, that they resort to the most miniscule detail that even those involved couldn't agree on.

I don't claim to be perfect by any means. If my posts get to the point where I, on a regular basis, can only pick others apart without offering a contribution, then I hope some one lets me know.

The Ayoob Files in American HG is my favorie feature and I always look forward to it. Without it, I wouldn't subscribe.

I wish Mas would get off his butt and create another Ayoob Files--the Book.

To keep with the main spirit of the thread: NO! carrying two guns is a wise choice for more than one reason, as some have pointed out.

As far as being a violent crime vicitm, I reject the idea that you use over all population to determine YOUR chances, since certain areas of most cities have a much higher crime rate, and your chances aren't the same as for those who live there.

However, your chances of being a victim are about the same as for many others who were victimized even though the odds said it wouldn't happen to them.

[Playboypenguin]

Cant say I am very surprised that you have no counter argument. If none is forthcoming, then perhaps a public apology is in order?

Actually, I had lost this thread until tonight due to the erratic behavior of the board on my end lately. I have had to go back and search all the threads I have posted in and then try to find where I left off in them. I am sure I have missed a lot of discussion.

As for my position on Mas, I said my peace and he got to defend his position. There was nothing more to really say that would not have just been bickering. I respect his work and enjoy his writings. I still believe it is mostly fiction, but that is my own right to feel that way. After all, it is pretty bad when a greenhorn like myself has many more times the combat experience than the "proposed expert."

Besides, as more than one person put it to me in PM, "arguing his followers is like arguing with Glock-o-philes about the G19 not being God's gift to firearms."

[pax]

PBP ~

That won't cut it here.

You called another member a liar. That, sir, is a personal attack, prohibited by the forum rules.

Apologize or prove your point.

One or the other.

pax

[Creature]

I wont be holding my breath waiting for his apology.

[Playboypenguin]

You called another member a liar. That, sir, is a personal attack, prohibited by the forum rules.

Apologize or prove your point.

One or the other.

I cannot prove a negative. I cannot prove his accounts never happened. That is an unrealistic requirement.

I did send Mas Ayoob and apology though, in case he felt I was attacking him and not the idea and the experience behind it. I did not call him a liar. I questioned his reasoning and stated I do not think his articles of evidence are reliable or significant accounts. He is not saying it happened to him anyway. He is saying he read about it happening. It does not matter if he is right if the source information is wrong.

But like I said, I did send him an apology in case he feels like he is being attacked. That is not my intent. Anyone that writes a published article or makes a public post on these boards is subject to scrutiny. I am sure he understands that more than most people.

In reality, I was actually quite honored that he responded to my post at all.

I would have just left it at that but some people on the boards have a lot of free time and like to follow people around and try to cause conflict.

[Creature]

I cannot prove a negative. I cannot prove his accounts never happened. That is an unrealistic requirement.

You cant prove it, so you said it anyway. That's tantamount to calling me a liar. Glad I didnt hold my breath.

And now you accuse me of stalking you. This just keeps getting better and better.

[Playboypenguin]

You cant prove it, so you said it anyway. That's tantamount to calling me a liar. Glad I didnt hold my breath.

Asking for proof of an assertion is nowhere near the same thing as making a statement that requires proof of any kind. I always love how you immediately jump to attacking others when they question your information.

[Creature]

My information is personal experience, which you are called into question by saying it may or may not have happened. I said it happened. Because it did happen. That would be the same as me saying I think that you never a LEO or an officer in the military. That would be the same as calling you a liar.

But now you accuse me of stalking you and making trouble. I simply check my previous posts, like I always do and look to see when a post has been added to. I dont stalk you PBP. Youre not worth the time to me.

[Playboypenguin]

My information is personal experience, which you are calling into question. That would be the same a me saying I think that you never a LEO or an officer in the military. That would be the same as calling you a liar.

You could say that if you wanted to...in fact many people did. Until I posted pics of me in uniform, pics of me at my duty stations, copies of pics from my basic training year book, etc.

See, I made a claim and then backed it up. You might want to try that sometime.

PS: I have no problem with personal experience being cited, but you seem to not be able to understand in many of your posts that a single exception does not disprove all other accounts to the contrary.