The Firing Line Forums

Go Back   The Firing Line Forums > Hogan's Alley > Tactics and Training

Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old January 5, 2008, 01:20 PM   #1
tuckerdog1
Senior Member
 
Join Date: September 20, 2005
Location: Texas
Posts: 281
Question. LEOs at the door with warrant

Okay, for me, this would be unlikely. Would almost have to be the dreaded incorrect address, or some "prankster" giving false info to the police.

But say it happens. I have no beef with coorporating with the police. But with home invaders sometimes posing as police, I want to be positive it's the real police on the other side of the door.

So, can I expect a little patience from the police, when I answer through the door I want to verify they are, who they say they are? And how do I best go about that verification? Call 911 and ask what? Names, badge #s ?

Tuckerdog1
__________________
Every normal man must be tempted at times to spit upon his hands, hoist the
black flag, and begin slitting throats. - Henry Louis Mencken
tuckerdog1 is offline  
Old January 5, 2008, 02:51 PM   #2
David Armstrong
Junior member
 
Join Date: January 24, 2005
Location: SW Louisiana
Posts: 2,289
You can expect a little patience, but not a whole lot. If the police think you are stalling them for any reason, prepare to get run over. As for verification, ask for an ID and a copy of the warrant. Few home invaders will go through the rigamorale of getting LE uniforms, faking IDs and warrants, etc. so I wouldn't worry too much about it. It's more likely they would pose as delivery people, someone in need of help, etc.
David Armstrong is offline  
Old January 5, 2008, 03:13 PM   #3
Creature
Junior member
 
Join Date: April 8, 2007
Location: Virginia
Posts: 3,769
Quote:
Few home invaders will go through the rigamorale of getting LE uniforms, faking IDs and warrants, etc. so I wouldn't worry too much about it.
Unless of course he has something they want which would be worth the rigmarole of dressing up...either way, expect little/no patience.
Creature is offline  
Old January 5, 2008, 03:19 PM   #4
Playboypenguin
Junior member
 
Join Date: February 27, 2006
Location: Great Pacific Northwest
Posts: 11,515
I am not sure about everywhere but when I was in the LE line of work search warrants required uniformed officers be present. There were rules about "reasonable and verifiable" presence or something like that. The plain clothes guys always called the uniformed guys to accompany them on warrant searches.

This must not be the case everywhere since I see one or two plain clothed cops serving search warrants on TV shows all the time.
Playboypenguin is offline  
Old January 5, 2008, 03:27 PM   #5
David Armstrong
Junior member
 
Join Date: January 24, 2005
Location: SW Louisiana
Posts: 2,289
Quote:
Unless of course he has something they want which would be worth the rigmarole of dressing up...
Sigh. Yes, there is always the "unless" or the "if" or the "maybe" factor. But I'll play--can you give a single example within the last 25 years of a criminal home invasion being conducted by BG invaders dressed as police officers anyplace in the U.S.?
David Armstrong is offline  
Old January 5, 2008, 03:39 PM   #6
zoomie
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 23, 2006
Location: GA
Posts: 1,861
I didn't search long enough to find home invasions, but "playing dress up" is a very common theme. And I don't think a home invasion is any worse than a mugging.

These guys dressed as prostitutes, bought police handcuffs, and robbed multiple people in public
http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpag...52C1A9659C8B63

These two LAST WEEK bought Sheriff outfits, outfitted their truck with lights, bought fake badges, and then pulled drivers over.
http://www.politicalgateway.com/news/read/122952

There's no shortage of people willing to outfit themselves in any way necessary to achieve their goals.
zoomie is offline  
Old January 5, 2008, 04:48 PM   #7
tony pasley
Senior Member
 
Join Date: April 13, 2006
Location: western north carolina
Posts: 1,641
New York City A rapist dressed up as a Fireman to get his victums about 2 years ago.
tony pasley is offline  
Old January 5, 2008, 04:58 PM   #8
Tanzer
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 18, 2007
Posts: 884
If they step on your face, they're cops. If they run, they were crooks.
__________________
Only the ignorant find ignorance to be bliss. Only those of us who know better will suffer from it.
Tanzer is offline  
Old January 5, 2008, 05:05 PM   #9
vox rationis
Senior Member
 
Join Date: April 15, 2007
Posts: 1,855
Well if they announce they are cops, and you don't trust that they are, perhaps you can announce that you do not trust their declaration as genuine, that you are very well armed and will resist an intrusion into your property/house, unless you see five proper squad cars outside, lights flashing, and with uniformed police outside announcing whom they are on the PA system. Now if they manage to produce all of these things, well I suppose it is safe to say that they are the real deal and it is probably safe to open the door, after putting the armament safely away .
vox rationis is offline  
Old January 5, 2008, 07:27 PM   #10
Creature
Junior member
 
Join Date: April 8, 2007
Location: Virginia
Posts: 3,769
Quote:
Sigh. Yes, there is always the "unless" or the "if" or the "maybe" factor. But I'll play--can you give a single example within the last 25 years of a criminal home invasion being conducted by BG invaders dressed as police officers anyplace in the U.S.?
Sure!

http://myfloridalegal.com/newsrel.ns...2571790061BEE4
Creature is offline  
Old January 5, 2008, 09:06 PM   #11
brickeyee
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 29, 2004
Posts: 3,351
Must be a pretty bad location if there is even the chance of the police showing up.

Try moving to a safer place.
brickeyee is offline  
Old January 5, 2008, 09:13 PM   #12
TRiCoN45
Member
 
Join Date: September 9, 2007
Location: in the shadows
Posts: 35
Good question! I always wondered myself.

David Armstrong.....you should put some ointment on that cause it looks like it burns. Hahaha jk. I would suggest totell them you are then calling 911 to verify that the warrent/cops are legit. Not very long ago there was a period of time where BGs here playing dress-up as cops and pulling people over with lights and all. While being pulled over, the police said if you feel uncomfortable about anything you should call 911 immediately and the dispatcher will radio the cop in that location to confirm if indeed it is a cop and/or pull over in a well populated and lite area. When I heard this on the news I questioned the officer's patience in following the driver off of the freeway, down a few streets then finaly stopping at a gas station. But I guess better him pissed off at you then having some dude tie you up, rob you, kiddnap you, kill you, and burying you.
TRiCoN45 is offline  
Old January 6, 2008, 12:03 AM   #13
Jay1958
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 26, 2007
Location: North Carolina
Posts: 274
example #1

Fake DEA Agent Nabbed in New York

For drug dealers in the New York City area, the armed and violent Tony Clanton was their worse nightmare when he showed up at their door with a search warrant and DEA Special Agent credentials. The problem was the DEA badge and the search warrant was fake and Tony Clanton was anything but a federal agent.
Clanton, 34, was arrested last week and charged with impersonating and federal agent, drug possession, gun possession and armed burglary.

"The DEA Badge this individual was carrying was fake, but the charges he faces for robbing homes, stealing drugs and terrorizing the community are real. Impersonating a federal agent is a serious crime and will not be tolerated. New Yorkers can rest assure that law enforcement will weed out and place these individuals in jail – where they belong," said DEA special agent John P. Gilbride.

When New York Drug Enforcement Task Force officers arrested Clanton at his home, the found 124 grams of crack/cocaine, a Glock 9 mm handgun, two .380 weapons, five hundred rounds of ammunition, a police scanner, a bullet proof vest, handcuffs, an MTA parking permit, a $10,000 Rolex watch, drug paraphernalia, a fictitious DEA badge and other law enforcement credentials (pictured) with Clanton's photo under the name of Dennis Condon.

"Is of special concern when individuals masquerade as law enforcement agents to commit crimes. It increases the potential for danger and violence that dedicated officers encounter daily," said New York Special Narcotics Prosecutor Bridget G. Brennan.

Example #2 - here is a case of a home invasion / murder of a licensed FFL01 dealer by criminals with 'FBI' hats and shirts

In January of 1996, Chevie Kehoe and Danny Lee entered the home of Tilly, Arkansas gun-dealer, William Mueller. Dressed as FBI agents, Kehoe and Lee hid until the Muellers came home. They methodically taped and handcuffed the hands and feet of William, his wife Nancy and their eight year-old daughter Sarah. They then tortured the Mueller's with cattle-prods and eventually killed all three by duct taping plastic bags over their heads and suffocating them. The bodies were then dumped into an Arkansas bayou and Kehoe and Lee bragged to others that they had put them on a "liquid diet." Initially, it was believed that their motive was robbery as Kehoe and Lee got away with a trailer full of guns, ammunition, gold and various militia papaphenalia that the Mullers sold at gun shows.

In the second example, they broke in and hid in the victims home, but they went to the house originally dressed in 'FBI' hats and t-shirts in case the victims were at home...

Last edited by Jay1958; January 6, 2008 at 12:25 AM. Reason: add example #2
Jay1958 is offline  
Old January 6, 2008, 02:44 AM   #14
IdahoG36
Senior Member
 
Join Date: June 24, 2006
Location: Boise, Idaho
Posts: 2,993
Quote:
perhaps you can announce that you do not trust their declaration as genuine, that you are very well armed and will resist an intrusion into your property/house, unless you see five proper squad cars outside, lights flashing, and with uniformed police outside announcing whom they are on the PA system.
At which time your door would be knocked down and you would be tackled and cuffed, or if you're holding a weapon, maybe even shot. As stated earlier, the police will think you're stalling because you have something to hide, and will waste little time gaining entry to your residence.
IdahoG36 is offline  
Old January 6, 2008, 02:54 AM   #15
Wildalaska
Junior member
 
Join Date: November 25, 2002
Location: In my own little weird world in Anchorage, Alaska
Posts: 14,172
Read the news reports carefully...your chances, if you are a legitimate person, of getting hit by folks pretending to be cops is statistically nill.

WildopenthedoorandasktocallyourlawyerAlaska TM
Wildalaska is offline  
Old January 6, 2008, 05:56 AM   #16
OldShooter
Senior Member
 
Join Date: March 28, 2006
Location: Maine
Posts: 846
Warrant entry

Quote from Playboypenquin

"This must not be the case everywhere since I see one or two plain clothed cops serving search warrants on TV shows all the time."

Which are the shows you get your research from?
OldShooter is offline  
Old January 6, 2008, 05:58 AM   #17
Playboypenguin
Junior member
 
Join Date: February 27, 2006
Location: Great Pacific Northwest
Posts: 11,515
Quote:
Which are the shows you get your research from?
All those "Law and Order" type shows and the like that keep coming on in the background late at night when I am too lazy to change the channel after something I was watching on TIVO finishes.
Playboypenguin is offline  
Old January 6, 2008, 07:43 AM   #18
Tanzer
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 18, 2007
Posts: 884
Quote Playboypenguin;
Quote:
All those "Law and Order" type shows
Aside from fictional shows, I've seen it on reality shows like "COPS". They show up in T-shirts and baseball caps lettered with "X"PD, tapered slacks and black sneakers. Not too hard to imitate. Of course, they also have a guy holding a camera with a spotlight and foam-tipped microphone.
__________________
Only the ignorant find ignorance to be bliss. Only those of us who know better will suffer from it.
Tanzer is offline  
Old January 6, 2008, 08:08 AM   #19
tuckerdog1
Senior Member
 
Join Date: September 20, 2005
Location: Texas
Posts: 281
Quote:
Read the news reports carefully...your chances, if you are a legitimate person, of getting hit by folks pretending to be cops is statistically nill.
Wildalaska ,

I have a good friend, who is very anti-gun. She used the same argument with me the last time we discussed her keeping a gun in her house for protection. The argument then however was a general breakin, not a warrant being served. But in either case, the odds are very small. But you risk everything if you don't at least prepare to deal with it, should it happen.

Tuckerdog1
__________________
Every normal man must be tempted at times to spit upon his hands, hoist the
black flag, and begin slitting throats. - Henry Louis Mencken

Last edited by tuckerdog1; January 6, 2008 at 09:23 AM. Reason: seems I quoted Wildalaska, but credited Playboy. Sorry for the error
tuckerdog1 is offline  
Old January 6, 2008, 09:03 AM   #20
Creature
Junior member
 
Join Date: April 8, 2007
Location: Virginia
Posts: 3,769
Quote:
Read the news reports carefully...your chances, if you are a legitimate person, of getting hit by folks pretending to be cops is statistically nill.
Tell that to these people: http://www.nbc4.com/news/13473498/detail.html

Or how about this fellow (is a minister "legitimate" enough?):
http://www.tcpalm.com/news/2007/aug/...dressed-polic/

Statistics...

First thing I learned in statistics class was that people who start bringing up statistics are usually manipulating them to show whatever they want to show. Statistics lie.

Last edited by Creature; January 6, 2008 at 10:03 AM.
Creature is offline  
Old January 6, 2008, 10:33 AM   #21
AirForceShooter
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 21, 2005
Location: Sarasota (sort of) Florida
Posts: 1,296
Stay at he door in full view of the LEO's
Don't let them in and ask for the phone number of their supervisor.
Call on your cell. Don't get out of their sight.
Tell them what you're doing and let them hear.
Hope they wait for you to get the call done and verify their ID's

Next step is going to be a bunch of very mad LEO's in your house.
Ask to see and read the warrant.
Shut up!!!

AFS
AirForceShooter is offline  
Old January 6, 2008, 11:34 AM   #22
Globug
Member
 
Join Date: February 9, 2005
Posts: 28
As a Deputy US Marshal on a Fugitive Task Force, who serves warrants every day, I'll give you my opinion..

I think you should probably defer to the thought that any real-officers are going to be very noisy, and most often work during the normal 8-5 working hours timeframe. I don't think you could ever expect warrant service after 9:00 pm, or before 5:00...

The officers serving the warrant could be from the US Marshals, DEA, ATF and the local PD may know nothing about the warrant. As often as we ask for the local PD to assist us, we also serve warrants on our own and the local PD has no idea we even came to work today.

There is no "hotline" you can call to determine if they are real cops or not.

The standard protocol (except for rare no-knock warrants) is to knock and announce "POLICE, OR "POLICE WITH A WARRANT" very loudly, then wait a "reasonable" amount of time that it would take for someone to answer the door..in most cases 30 seconds to 1 minute...maybe less depending on the agency, the officers, or the person/property the warrant is for. If they are worried that some child porn vendor might erase his HD, or the meth is going to get flushed, that waiting period at the front door may be very brief, it only has to be long enough to be "reasonable", unless there is exigency because the officers fear that evidence is being destroyed etc..

If no answer, to door gets kicked/rammed...

I know this is a pro-gun, pro-defense-of-my-castle, right-to-bear-arms website (so am I for the record), however, you better not be standing there with your GLOCKTALK COMMEMORATIVE GLOCK 17 in your hand when they come through, because they WILL NOT wait for you to raise it, having it in your hand is justifiable "intent" to shoot you and ask questions later and the courts will lean in their favor.

Officers are trained nowadays, not to wait until the perp raises the gun in their direction. If I'm doing a felony traffic stop and the driver grabs a gun from the glovebox, I'm not waiting until I can see down his barrel before I start shooting. The driver reaching for the gun displays "intent", and again, the court will lean in the officers' "good faith" assertion that the driver displayed "intent".

Same thing goes when serving warrants. If we knock and announce, and then kick the door and on the other side is a guy with a gun in his hand, he's most likely getting shot right there, whether he raises it or not.

Just some thoughts....
Globug is offline  
Old January 6, 2008, 12:52 PM   #23
Creature
Junior member
 
Join Date: April 8, 2007
Location: Virginia
Posts: 3,769
I have always wondered why warrants ever get served at a place of residence. Granted, some warrants just absolutely must be served at the place of residence. But it seems to me that it is much safer for everyone involved that if you want to grab someone, grab them while they are in their car or when they are standing in the driveway...or at least outdoors somewhere.

I say this because when you kick down a door to find someone, you will be forced to make a split second decisions when you actually make contact with anyone inside the residence...and when confronting the fugitive. Many times you wont/don't know whether anyone was able to arm themselves during the entry process until you can actually see his/her hands.

When a warrant is served outdoors, you can get "eyes on" the fugitive before actually making contact with that person. Controlling the situation is much easier than say if you have to search a house for the person.

Quote:
however, you better not be standing there with your GLOCKTALK COMMEMORATIVE GLOCK 17 in your hand when they come through, because they WILL NOT wait for you to raise it, having it in your hand is justifiable "intent" to shoot you and ask questions later and the courts will lean in their favor.
Also, this statement bothers me greatly.
Creature is offline  
Old January 6, 2008, 01:12 PM   #24
tuckerdog1
Senior Member
 
Join Date: September 20, 2005
Location: Texas
Posts: 281
The whole thing seems like a lose-lose situation. For someone like myself, who has zero reason for the police to be at their door, there should be suspicion if some one claiming to be police comes-a-knockin.

So if I just play the odds that it really is the police, and get it wrong, I could be toast. Or if it really is the police, but I'm not sure that's the case & they bash in the door, and being of a mind to defend myself, I'm armed, I either shoot a LEO, get shot myself, or both.

Tuckerdog1
__________________
Every normal man must be tempted at times to spit upon his hands, hoist the
black flag, and begin slitting throats. - Henry Louis Mencken
tuckerdog1 is offline  
Old January 6, 2008, 01:48 PM   #25
Wildalaska
Junior member
 
Join Date: November 25, 2002
Location: In my own little weird world in Anchorage, Alaska
Posts: 14,172
Quote:
Tell that to these people: http://www.nbc4.com/news/13473498/detail.html
Read that again

Quote:
First thing I learned in statistics class was that people who start bringing up statistics are usually manipulating them to show whatever they want to show. Statistics lie.
Lightning strikes are a statistic too. We don't go around wearing tinfoil shields do we?

Don't let your own personal worldview interfere with reality.

WildlistentoglobugAlaska TM
Wildalaska is offline  
Closed Thread

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 04:05 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
This site and contents, including all posts, Copyright © 1998-2021 S.W.A.T. Magazine
Copyright Complaints: Please direct DMCA Takedown Notices to the registered agent: thefiringline.com
Page generated in 0.14695 seconds with 8 queries