Llama "Extra"? 9m/m 38?

joyrock · August 29, 2012, 06:59 AM

Ok, I got a Llama "Extra". On the left side of the slide it has,

Gabilondoy Cia.elgoibar(espana)
Cal. 9m/m. 38 "Llama"

There is `LL' right above the trigger guard.
So, using the Spanish Date Codes, that makes it a 1940, as far as I can tell. There are no import marks anywhere on the pistol. The guy I got it from thought it was a 9MM Luger, from the early 60's (that's why I got it). Oh well, I did think the mags where a little long for a 9MM luger, so I loaded up a mag, and fired it (with 9mm luger). Seemed to work ok. When I took it apart, I noted that the chamber was a little long for a 9mm luger. So I did some checking. It looks like a got a 9MM Largo! Agggg, another bullet to keep up with.

So with me saying all that, can I shoot 38 Super's out of it? I have a couple boxes of Aguila 38 Super A+P 130Gr. They fit in the mag, and load up in the gun. Or should I pulled the bullets out and load them up with a 38 APC loadings? Also I got 50 rounds of 9X23 Win, I know that is a lot hotter round, I was thinking of pulling out the bullets and loading them up with new powder of the 38 APC. Is that a good idea? So what should I do? Can I get a 9MM luger barrel for this thing? Or what? Thanks, Matt.

lee n. field · August 29, 2012, 07:54 AM

Quote:

So with me saying all that, can I shoot 38 Super's out of it?

No.

Some time back, I recall a thread where a guy bought a Star in 9mm Largo, and his adventures setting himself up to handload it. I'll see (in my abundant free time) if I can find it.

Jim Watson · August 29, 2012, 08:29 AM

Seems you have it figured out. The 9mm/.38 on these guns refers to 9mm Largo (Spanish version of 9mm Bergman Bayard) and .38 Auto.

Of current ammo, .38 Super is an overload, 9x23 Winchester is a huge overload.

As you say, you can pull .38 Super and 9x23 Win bullets and load the brass back with .38 ACP and 9mm Largo powder charges. I would not try to guess how much to reduce the factory loads, just discard that powder and go with a handbook load.

I would try to trade off those factory loads and get some Starline Largo brass and load from scratch; or maybe .38 Super brass.

No problem loading .38 ACP in Super brass with Super dies, just use the smaller powder charges.

I THINK you can load 9x23 in 9x19 (Luger) dies.

I would not try to juggle two batches of brass or buy two sets of dies.

James K · August 29, 2012, 10:13 AM

Well, some folks (including yours truly) have fired .38 Super in those guns and they didn't come apart, but it is probably not a good idea to do so too often. (Do not fire .38 Super, 9x23 or any of the super hot 9mm's in the Astra blowback guns made for 9mm Largo or 9mm Parabellum (9mm Luger).)

Jim

joyrock · August 29, 2012, 12:42 PM

Thanks!! I just wanted some feed back, to see if I was thinking in the right direction. Thanks, again!

Jim Watson · August 29, 2012, 05:15 PM

Quote:

Well, some folks have fired .38 Super in those guns and they didn't come apart

Yes, I know, it is actually fairly routinely done. But I haven't and so did not want to contribute to the delinquency of a buyer of a pig in a poke. But now the subject has been brought up...
Much "modern" .38 Super ammunition is loaded below the old spec of a 130@1300. Aquila is not far below, rated 1220 fps, tested 1234 fps.
I would not mind shooting two boxes to get the brass without the trouble of pulling bullets.

Do NOT shoot 9x23 Win in a 9x23 Largo, it is nearly double the pressure.

joyrock · August 29, 2012, 08:32 PM

So no real problem pulling the bullets from the 9x23 Win, and reloading to 38apc, or the 9MM largo?

lee n. field · August 29, 2012, 09:25 PM

Why would you pull the bullets? 9mm bullets are easy to come by, and inexpensive.

joyrock · August 29, 2012, 09:42 PM

hmmm, cuz, i don't have any thing that shoots the 9X23 Win. But the bullet and the brass is all I need. Then repack it with a loading closer to the 38APC - 9MM Largo. The 9x23 Win is waaaayyy to hot for my 72 year old pistol.

The 9X23 Win has a CUP of 55,000 max, the 38 Super has 36,500 CUP, the 9MM Largo is about 25,000-26,000, the 38 APC is 23,000 CUP. That is MAX, so in real life, one will not really see that, I hope. The 9MM Luger is 34,000.

Now the funny thing is that the 38 APC, 9MM Largo, 9X23 Win, all have the same case size. The 38 Super has a semi-rimed case, so filing off a little of the rim, makes is 38 APC case! Yay!

Thats why I need to pull the bullets out of the 9X23 Win ammo I have.

Jim Watson · August 29, 2012, 11:32 PM

Quote:

The 38 Super has a semi-rimed case, so filing off a little of the rim, makes is 38 APC case!

Uh, no.
The .38 ACP (That's ACP for Automatic Colt Pistol, an APC is an Armored Personnel Carrier) has always been a semirimmed case, no filing required. There is no external difference. I had some cases headstamped .38 Auto that were measurably lighter (=thinner) than .38 Supers but you could not tell a difference by appearance or external measurement.

lee n. field · August 30, 2012, 07:31 AM

Quote:

Now the funny thing is that the 38 APC, 9MM Largo, 9X23 Win, all have the same case size.

Ahhhh!. OK. I was unaware of that.

Jim Watson · August 30, 2012, 05:35 PM

Not that, either.

.38 ACP/Super is a straight walled semirimmed cartridge.

9mm Largo = 9x23 Bergman Bayard and 9x23 Winchester are tapered rimless cartridges. The Largo is the same EXTERNAL dimensions as Winchester but the brass is thinner and softer. 9x23 Win is thick and hard for high pressure in a standard Colt ramp barrel without the integral ramp used in overloaded .38 Super IPSC "raceguns."

They are all the same case length but differ elsewhere.

joyrock · August 30, 2012, 07:04 PM

Thanks Jim! Sorry, I meant ACP. My bad. I know the 38 Super had a rim! I got some 9mm Largo ammo, old army surplus stuff. I just fired off some rounds, and it works very well. Thanks again!

lee n. field · September 10, 2012, 06:07 PM

Some comments I found today on loading 9mm Largo: Bob Shell on 9mm Largo.

August 29, 2012, 06:59 AM	#1
joyrock Senior Member Join Date: February 12, 2008 Location: Greensboro, NC Posts: 153	Llama "Extra"? 9m/m 38? Ok, I got a Llama "Extra". On the left side of the slide it has, Gabilondoy Cia.elgoibar(espana) Cal. 9m/m. 38 "Llama" There is `LL' right above the trigger guard. So, using the Spanish Date Codes, that makes it a 1940, as far as I can tell. There are no import marks anywhere on the pistol. The guy I got it from thought it was a 9MM Luger, from the early 60's (that's why I got it). Oh well, I did think the mags where a little long for a 9MM luger, so I loaded up a mag, and fired it (with 9mm luger). Seemed to work ok. When I took it apart, I noted that the chamber was a little long for a 9mm luger. So I did some checking. It looks like a got a 9MM Largo! Agggg, another bullet to keep up with. So with me saying all that, can I shoot 38 Super's out of it? I have a couple boxes of Aguila 38 Super A+P 130Gr. They fit in the mag, and load up in the gun. Or should I pulled the bullets out and load them up with a 38 APC loadings? Also I got 50 rounds of 9X23 Win, I know that is a lot hotter round, I was thinking of pulling out the bullets and loading them up with new powder of the 38 APC. Is that a good idea? So what should I do? Can I get a 9MM luger barrel for this thing? Or what? Thanks, Matt. __________________ Oleg Volk is my hero!

August 29, 2012, 12:42 PM	#5
joyrock Senior Member Join Date: February 12, 2008 Location: Greensboro, NC Posts: 153	Thanks!! I just wanted some feed back, to see if I was thinking in the right direction. Thanks, again! __________________ Oleg Volk is my hero!

August 29, 2012, 08:32 PM	#7
joyrock Senior Member Join Date: February 12, 2008 Location: Greensboro, NC Posts: 153	So no real problem pulling the bullets from the 9x23 Win, and reloading to 38apc, or the 9MM largo? __________________ Oleg Volk is my hero!

August 29, 2012, 09:25 PM	#8
lee n. field Senior Member Join Date: October 12, 2002 Location: The same state as Mordor. Posts: 5,569	Why would you pull the bullets? 9mm bullets are easy to come by, and inexpensive. __________________ "As was the man of dust, so also are those who are of the dust, and as is the man of heaven, so also are those who are of heaven. Just as we have borne the image of the man of dust, we shall also bear the image of the man of heaven. "

August 29, 2012, 09:42 PM	#9
joyrock Senior Member Join Date: February 12, 2008 Location: Greensboro, NC Posts: 153	hmmm, cuz, i don't have any thing that shoots the 9X23 Win. But the bullet and the brass is all I need. Then repack it with a loading closer to the 38APC - 9MM Largo. The 9x23 Win is waaaayyy to hot for my 72 year old pistol. The 9X23 Win has a CUP of 55,000 max, the 38 Super has 36,500 CUP, the 9MM Largo is about 25,000-26,000, the 38 APC is 23,000 CUP. That is MAX, so in real life, one will not really see that, I hope. The 9MM Luger is 34,000. Now the funny thing is that the 38 APC, 9MM Largo, 9X23 Win, all have the same case size. The 38 Super has a semi-rimed case, so filing off a little of the rim, makes is 38 APC case! Yay! Thats why I need to pull the bullets out of the 9X23 Win ammo I have. __________________ Oleg Volk is my hero!

August 29, 2012, 08:29 AM	#3
Jim Watson Senior Member Join Date: October 25, 2001 Location: Alabama Posts: 18,541	Seems you have it figured out. The 9mm/.38 on these guns refers to 9mm Largo (Spanish version of 9mm Bergman Bayard) and .38 Auto. Of current ammo, .38 Super is an overload, 9x23 Winchester is a huge overload. As you say, you can pull .38 Super and 9x23 Win bullets and load the brass back with .38 ACP and 9mm Largo powder charges. I would not try to guess how much to reduce the factory loads, just discard that powder and go with a handbook load. I would try to trade off those factory loads and get some Starline Largo brass and load from scratch; or maybe .38 Super brass. No problem loading .38 ACP in Super brass with Super dies, just use the smaller powder charges. I THINK you can load 9x23 in 9x19 (Luger) dies. I would not try to juggle two batches of brass or buy two sets of dies.

August 29, 2012, 10:13 AM	#4
James K Member In Memoriam Join Date: March 17, 1999 Posts: 24,383	Well, some folks (including yours truly) have fired .38 Super in those guns and they didn't come apart, but it is probably not a good idea to do so too often. (Do not fire .38 Super, 9x23 or any of the super hot 9mm's in the Astra blowback guns made for 9mm Largo or 9mm Parabellum (9mm Luger).) Jim

August 30, 2012, 05:35 PM	#12
Jim Watson Senior Member Join Date: October 25, 2001 Location: Alabama Posts: 18,541	Not that, either. .38 ACP/Super is a straight walled semirimmed cartridge. 9mm Largo = 9x23 Bergman Bayard and 9x23 Winchester are tapered rimless cartridges. The Largo is the same EXTERNAL dimensions as Winchester but the brass is thinner and softer. 9x23 Win is thick and hard for high pressure in a standard Colt ramp barrel without the integral ramp used in overloaded .38 Super IPSC "raceguns." They are all the same case length but differ elsewhere.

August 30, 2012, 07:04 PM	#13
joyrock Senior Member Join Date: February 12, 2008 Location: Greensboro, NC Posts: 153	Thanks Jim! Sorry, I meant ACP. My bad. I know the 38 Super had a rim! I got some 9mm Largo ammo, old army surplus stuff. I just fired off some rounds, and it works very well. Thanks again! __________________ Oleg Volk is my hero!

September 10, 2012, 06:07 PM	#14
lee n. field Senior Member Join Date: October 12, 2002 Location: The same state as Mordor. Posts: 5,569	Some comments I found today on loading 9mm Largo: Bob Shell on 9mm Largo. __________________ "As was the man of dust, so also are those who are of the dust, and as is the man of heaven, so also are those who are of heaven. Just as we have borne the image of the man of dust, we shall also bear the image of the man of heaven. "