The Firing Line Forums

Go Back   The Firing Line Forums > The Conference Center > General Discussion Forum

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old November 26, 2015, 12:18 AM   #1
Otto1791
Junior Member
 
Join Date: November 24, 2015
Posts: 7
Home based FFL

I am more than likely getting my FFL this spring or sooner and it will be based out of my home which is unfortunately here in Rochester, NY. I have contacted the zoning department in my town and it has been OK'd from them and talked to the ATF as well to sort out any kind of bumps in the road that they may forsee being a problem. I am 100 percent in understanding that an FFL is for business use and all. I am pretty much working on virtually zero capital for inventory and looking to start off just doing transfers, which the CHEAPEST I have seen around here is $25 and that is about 40 minutes from here. Due to zoning I am NOT allowed to do ANY business in my home and have to go to the customers homes. I am looking to charge $35 for transfers because of gas and milage. Do you guys think this is fair, over priced or low balling myself? Looking for feed back for that and any other ideas you may feel is possible to profit from so i can build up capital for an actual inventory. Not looking to make a fortune, I am very aware of the reality of it. Just looking to make a little extra cash doing something I love and want to provide fellow law abiding citizens with affordable, quality firearms. Lots of shops around here b.s. people. Had one shop tell me if I built an AR from parts I order the ATF would put me in prison. Thanks
Otto1791 is offline  
Old November 26, 2015, 12:24 AM   #2
Aguila Blanca
Staff
 
Join Date: September 25, 2008
Location: CONUS
Posts: 18,434
Quote:
Originally Posted by Otto1791
I am pretty much working on virtually zero capital for inventory and looking to start off just doing transfers, which the CHEAPEST I have seen around here is $25 and that is about 40 minutes from here. Due to zoning I am NOT allowed to do ANY business in my home and have to go to the customers homes.
How are you getting BATFE approval for a business if you are not allowed to conduct business at your business location (your home)? The BATFE requires that you have a place of business, and regular business hours. The regular hours could be for one hour a week, on Sunday afternoons, but they have to be regular so the BATFE can come when you're open for business and conduct an inspection.

What am I missing here?
Aguila Blanca is online now  
Old November 26, 2015, 01:12 AM   #3
Frank Ettin
Staff
 
Join Date: November 23, 2005
Location: California - San Francisco
Posts: 9,471
Quote:
Originally Posted by Otto1791
...Due to zoning I am NOT allowed to do ANY business in my home and have to go to the customers homes....
Won't work. Under federal law an FFL may conduct business only at his licensed premise or at a gun show. See 18 USC 923(j):
Quote:
(j) A licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, or licensed dealer may, under rules or regulations prescribed by the Attorney General, conduct business temporarily at a location other than the location specified on the license if such temporary location is the location for a gun show or event sponsored by any national, State, or local organization, or any affiliate of any such organization devoted to the collection, competitive use, or other sporting use of firearms in the community,...
So it would not be legal under federal law to travel to do transfers at customer's homes.
__________________
"It is long been a principle of ours that one is no more armed because he has possession of a firearm than he is a musician because he owns a piano. There is no point in having a gun if you are not capable of using it skillfully." -- Jeff Cooper
Frank Ettin is offline  
Old November 26, 2015, 01:13 AM   #4
Bill DeShivs
Senior Member
 
Join Date: April 7, 2006
Posts: 10,967
You can't go to a customer's home. You have to do business at YOUR PLACE OF BUSINESS.
Apparently, you haven't actually talked to BATF, either. Unless local zoning regulations allow you to work from your home, BATF will not issue a license.
__________________
Bill DeShivs, Master Cutler
www.billdeshivs.com
Bill DeShivs is offline  
Old November 26, 2015, 08:58 AM   #5
Otto1791
Junior Member
 
Join Date: November 24, 2015
Posts: 7
ATF has OK'd the way the business will be conducted. I called the Buffalo office directly, they were only concerned with how the firearms would be locked,that the FFL was not primarily used for personal use and that I am not violating zoning code. Many businesses go to customers homes, I plan on only going to referred customers for safety reasons. I guarantee you ATF is OK with how I plan on doing business.
Otto1791 is offline  
Old November 26, 2015, 09:03 AM   #6
243winxb
Senior Member
 
Join Date: July 26, 2011
Location: USA
Posts: 1,730
You have bad info. Do get it in writing from the ATF.

Last edited by 243winxb; November 26, 2015 at 09:11 AM.
243winxb is offline  
Old November 26, 2015, 09:33 AM   #7
Otto1791
Junior Member
 
Join Date: November 24, 2015
Posts: 7
I will call them Monday and clear that all up, have them email me the response to have it in black and white. Amazing the hoops and technicalities the government puts in place, where's the freedom? Thanks for the feedback fellas!
Otto1791 is offline  
Old November 26, 2015, 09:48 AM   #8
Don P
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 17, 2005
Location: Swamp dweller
Posts: 6,187
Rest assured the ATF WILL CONTACT THE ZONING OFFICE. As soon as the zoning office states no foot traffic(no business conducted) at your residence to the ATF your application will be DENIED. Your zoning office has stated that NO BUSINESS AT HOME. That's your stop light. Perusing your endeavor is going to be fruitless.
__________________
NRA Life Member, NRA Chief Range Safety Officer, NRA Certified Pistol Instructor,, USPSA & Steel Challange NROI Range Officer,
ICORE Range Officer,
,MAG 40 Graduate
As you are, I once was, As I am, You will be.
Don P is offline  
Old November 26, 2015, 09:52 AM   #9
Snyper
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 16, 2013
Location: Eastern NC
Posts: 3,047
Quote:
ATF has OK'd the way the business will be conducted. I called the Buffalo office directly, they were only concerned with how the firearms would be locked,that the FFL was not primarily used for personal use and that I am not violating zoning code. Many businesses go to customers homes, I plan on only going to referred customers for safety reasons. I guarantee you ATF is OK with how I plan on doing business.
But you ARE violating the zoning laws since you cannot "do any business" at your home, and receiving and logging in guns is part of "doing business"
__________________
One shot, one kill
Snyper is offline  
Old November 26, 2015, 10:15 AM   #10
TXAZ
Senior Member
 
Join Date: September 5, 2010
Location: McMurdo Sound Texas
Posts: 4,322
Otto,
please keep us informed on how this turns out, there are many of us that are in the same boat and would like to consider what you're doing as an option.
__________________

Cave illos in guns et backhoes
TXAZ is offline  
Old November 26, 2015, 10:18 AM   #11
g.willikers
Senior Member
 
Join Date: September 28, 2008
Posts: 10,442
Personal interpretation of laws to your favor doesn't change the reality of the situation.
(That sounded quite astute, didn't it)?
__________________
Walt Kelly, alias Pogo, sez:
“Don't take life so serious, son, it ain't nohow permanent.”
g.willikers is offline  
Old November 26, 2015, 11:23 AM   #12
243winxb
Senior Member
 
Join Date: July 26, 2011
Location: USA
Posts: 1,730
Zoning laws are different , depending on where you live. The busniess , if under a set square feet area, may be allowed. The type of busniess also matters. You will also need to update you home owner insurance, if peope come to your home. A tiny operation may purchase insurance like a lady that does hair in the basement. The ATF has listed that no FFL are allowed to work from you home. But an outbuilding that is not attached to the house, is ok. Problem is, the ATF laws are always changing. Dont give up. Good luck.
243winxb is offline  
Old November 26, 2015, 11:26 AM   #13
TXAZ
Senior Member
 
Join Date: September 5, 2010
Location: McMurdo Sound Texas
Posts: 4,322
GW noted:
Quote:
Personal interpretation of laws to your favor doesn't change the reality of the situation.
(That sounded quite astute, didn't it)?
Along the lines of: "The world is as it is, not as you wish it to be."
__________________

Cave illos in guns et backhoes
TXAZ is offline  
Old November 26, 2015, 11:51 AM   #14
Otto1791
Junior Member
 
Join Date: November 24, 2015
Posts: 7
I made it really clear to the zoning office and the ATF that my home will only be used as storage for the firearms and as an address for the license, no foot traffic or advertisement on the property. All interactons would be done off property of proposed licensed address. If you guys have any advice on how I should word it to the ATF when I call on Monday to reiterate, I'd appreciate it. I will keep you informed on any or all results.
Otto1791 is offline  
Old November 26, 2015, 12:51 PM   #15
kilimanjaro
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 23, 2009
Posts: 3,963
If I can get a transfer for $25 less than an hour away, I'm going to combine my errands and save the ten bucks extra you're going to charge me.

As an aside, just because you have an FFL doesn't mean I'm going to let a stranger in my home. You may be the nicest guy in the entire Mohawk River Valley but I'll drive for an hour and eliminate any and all risk to my family that may or may not arise from someone at my door.

Since I can't come to your place and shoot the breeze with you for a couple of hours while checking out your sales rack, I'm not going to have any basis to consider you as someone to put any trust in, other than I've been referred to you, which means nothing.

Can't do business at your business? Red flag.
You want to come to my house? Red flag.

Nothing personal, but I'm not seeing much of a business model here.

If you can change that model to 'transfers here in the shop are $25, and we can come to your place for $35', that would be beneficial.
kilimanjaro is offline  
Old November 26, 2015, 12:51 PM   #16
Frank Ettin
Staff
 
Join Date: November 23, 2005
Location: California - San Francisco
Posts: 9,471
Quote:
Originally Posted by Otto1791
I made it really clear...
Did you do it in writing, by "snail mail"? Did you get your answers in writing, by "snail mail"? That's how we conduct and document important business in the real world.
__________________
"It is long been a principle of ours that one is no more armed because he has possession of a firearm than he is a musician because he owns a piano. There is no point in having a gun if you are not capable of using it skillfully." -- Jeff Cooper
Frank Ettin is offline  
Old November 26, 2015, 01:29 PM   #17
Otto1791
Junior Member
 
Join Date: November 24, 2015
Posts: 7
I would work off of referrals, a "I have a good buddy that knows his stuff on guns" kind of thing. I uderstand people may not trust me and if that is the case I would be more than glad to tell them to go to the shop I go to. I'm not trying to have this be my day job out of my house like this. I have only spoken to the ATF and email zoning office so I can print them out as proof to the ATF as requested by the ATF. there is an interview conducted for the license on the premises by the ATF after filing, they said any or all issues would definitely ironed out by then.
Otto1791 is offline  
Old November 26, 2015, 05:46 PM   #18
StolzerandSons
Member
 
Join Date: June 13, 2013
Location: Washington, Kansas, u.S.A
Posts: 24
Quote:
they said any or all issues would definitely ironed out by then.
The BATFE's version of ironing things out is to deny you the license...from their perspective that resolves all of their issues.
StolzerandSons is offline  
Old November 26, 2015, 06:15 PM   #19
kilimanjaro
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 23, 2009
Posts: 3,963
Getting an FFL is not a negotiated process, either you are in compliance with each and every box to be checked off on the form, or you are not. There is no 'ironing out' of deficiencies.

I recommend you seek a variance in your zoning requirement. Be prepared to spend some serious time and effort getting your FFL.

I know two home-based FFLers, both required a variance be granted in order to conduct business at their home in residential zoning. Fortunately, none of the neighbors objected, but the town did not allow ammunition sales along with the guns for safety reasons.
kilimanjaro is offline  
Old November 26, 2015, 09:30 PM   #20
Aguila Blanca
Staff
 
Join Date: September 25, 2008
Location: CONUS
Posts: 18,434
Quote:
Originally Posted by Otto1791
I have only spoken to the ATF and email zoning office so I can print them out as proof to the ATF as requested by the ATF. there is an interview conducted for the license on the premises by the ATF after filing, they said any or all issues would definitely ironed out by then.
But the zoning office told you you can't conduct business at your home, and the BATFE requires that you have a regular business address and regular business hours in order to have an FFL. What good is it going to do you to print out and show the BATFE agent an e-mail from the zoning officer telling you that you can't operate the business from your home?

It sounds to me like you are either getting bad advice from somewhere, or not asking the right questions.
Aguila Blanca is online now  
Old November 26, 2015, 10:31 PM   #21
Otto1791
Junior Member
 
Join Date: November 24, 2015
Posts: 7
I called ATF about what hours I should put down being as I would be more of a by appointment business, agent said just put some hours you aren't at work. He said the reason for listing the hours were for setting appointments for them to check books and inventory.
Otto1791 is offline  
Old November 27, 2015, 09:54 AM   #22
dogtown tom
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 23, 2006
Location: Plano, Texas
Posts: 3,062
Quote:
Otto1791 .......... Many businesses go to customers homes, I plan on only going to referred customers for safety reasons. I guarantee you ATF is OK with how I plan on doing business.
And I guarantee that:
1. The person that answered the phone at ATF didn't fully understand your question.
2. Or you didn't fully explain your proposed business plan
3. Or that neither you or the person at ATF has read a shred of regulations.

Quote:
§478.100 Conduct of business away from licensed premises.

(a)(1) A licensee may conduct business temporarily at a gun show or event as defined in paragraph (b) if the gun show or event is located in the same State specified on the license: Provided, That such business shall not be conducted from any motorized or towed vehicle. The premises of the gun show or event at which the licensee conducts business shall be considered part of the licensed premises. Accordingly, no separate fee or license is required for the gun show or event locations. However, licensees shall comply with the provisions of §478.91 relating to posting of licenses (or a copy thereof) while conducting business at the gun show or event.

(2) A licensed importer, manufacturer, or dealer may engage in the business of dealing in curio or relic firearms with another licensee at any location.

(b) A gun show or an event is a function sponsored by any national, State, or local organization, devoted to the collection, competitive use, or other sporting use of firearms, or an organization or association that sponsors functions devoted to the collection, competitive use, or other sporting use of firearms in the community.

(c) Licensees conducting business at locations other than the premises specified on their license under the provisions of paragraph (a) of this section shall maintain firearms records in the form and manner prescribed by subpart H of this part. In addition, records of firearms transactions conducted at such locations shall include the location of the sale or other disposition, be entered in the acquisition and disposition records of the licensee, and retained on the premises specified on the license.

[T.D. ATF-270, 53 FR 10498, Mar. 31, 1988, as amended by T.D. ATF-401, 63 FR 35523, June 30, 1998]
Don't feel bad.......I asked my IOI if I could do deliveries too. He laughed.




Quote:
243winxb ........ The ATF has listed that no FFL are allowed to work from you home. But an outbuilding that is not attached to the house, is ok. Problem is, the ATF laws are always changing.....
Nonsense....absolute 100%, complete and utter nonsense.
The majority of FFL's are home based. No ATF regulation has ever prohibited a home based dealer.......I'm a "kitchen table dealer".

There is no ATF requirement to have a "an outbuilding that is not attached to the house"....as a matter of fact, there is no requirement to have a door, a lock, a safe or even a permanent structure.




Quote:
Otto1791 .... there is an interview conducted for the license on the premises by the ATF after filing, they said any or all issues would definitely ironed out by then.
Yeah, the issues will be ironed out by the IOI telling you that you can't do deliveries.........have you EVER heard of a gun dealer that does deliveries? Think about that one.



Quote:
Otto1791 I called ATF about what hours I should put down being as I would be more of a by appointment business, agent said just put some hours you aren't at work. He said the reason for listing the hours were for setting appointments for them to check books and inventory.
On your application you are required to show your "business hours"...the hours you will devote to your firearms business. It is not necessarily the same as the hours you are open to the public for business. No ATF regulation requires you to have "public hours". You are free to make appointments as you wish.
__________________
Need a FFL in Dallas/Plano/Allen/Frisco/McKinney ? Just EMAIL me. $20 transfers ($10 for CHL, active military,police,fire or schoolteachers)

Plano, Texas...........the Gun Nut Capitol of Gun Culture, USA https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pELwCqz2JfE
dogtown tom is offline  
Reply

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 02:28 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
This site and contents, including all posts, Copyright © 1998-2021 S.W.A.T. Magazine
Copyright Complaints: Please direct DMCA Takedown Notices to the registered agent: thefiringline.com
Page generated in 0.07099 seconds with 10 queries