The Firing Line Forums

Go Back   The Firing Line Forums > The North Corral > Black Powder and Cowboy Action Shooting

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old September 29, 2013, 07:00 AM   #1
Doc Hoy
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 24, 2008
Location: Naples, Fl
Posts: 5,440
Found a revolver in .38 s&W/.38 Long Colt

LGS has a revolver on consignment.

This is a Belgian Cowboy Ranger in the calibers listed in the title.

The revolver is in excellent condition.

Typical of revolvers of the period, there is no half cock position and the cylinder rotates freely when the hammers down. Lock up is solid and indexing is right in single and double action mode, once the hammer is about three quarters of the way back.

It is a double action revolver with grips which are of faux ivory. (At least I think it is faux)

They appear to be original and they have faded to a nice yellowish tan color.

The pistol has no serial number that is evident.

The reading that I have done on these revolvers indicates they were made in Belgium and probably by FAUL. They were inexpensive copies of the Peacemaker but in double action and with some cosmetic differences. The boldness of the markings the manufacturer put on the barrel and frame imply that they were intended to be copies but not replicas. I also read that they were sold in the US by folks like Sear, Montgomery Ward (Called and marked "Texas ranger") and J.C. Penney up until about the mid twenties. Many were supposedly brought back from WW I by returning soldiers.

The LGS owner says that the actual owner of the revolver places the date of manufacture at some time before 1900, but I don't know how he established that. I examined the revolver Saturday and noted what appear to be the various Belgian proof marks. When I get it (Thursday when I get back from a trip to FL) I'll look into those more carefully.

I have seen auctions for these revolvers which ended with a sale at between 200.00 and 250.00. Most of the photos are of revolvers with black hard rubber grips. Only one photo shows a light colored grip. I am paying right in the middle at .225.00 and the guy is going to transfer it to me via C&R, so no transfer fee. Actually he could just sell it to me outright because of its age, but I think he might be a little worried that the owner is incorrect on its date of manufacture.

I am going to load .38 LC with black powder for this revolver. (I need the dies and another Lee turret. Also need the right mold which I am afraid is slightly different from .357/.38SP.

I will post photos when I gets the revolver home.

Any comments you could make about your experience with these revolves would be most welcome.

I am going to post this over on Curios and relics forum too.

Tnx, guys.
__________________
Seek truth. Relax. Take a breath.
Doc Hoy is offline  
Old September 29, 2013, 08:21 PM   #2
Andy Griffith
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 14, 2009
Location: Macon Co. NC
Posts: 591
On the .38 long colt...

I would suggest slugging the barrel with a .375 round ball to determine the actual bore diameter.

It could take either .361 or .375 diameter bullets, depending upon which specs the Belgians were going by- I hope .361, as that will be a lot less trouble, and you won't have to used heeled (outside lubricated) bullets.

If, in fact it needs .375's, you'll just need to get the correct mould, and a collet type die to crimp them.
__________________
Barney Fife: "Nip it, nip it, nip it!"
Andy Griffith:"Oh now Barn'...."
Andy Griffith is offline  
Old September 30, 2013, 06:12 AM   #3
Doc Hoy
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 24, 2008
Location: Naples, Fl
Posts: 5,440
Andy and some others

Thanks a lot for the wink back.

I will pick up this revolver when I get back from FL on Thursday.

Slugging the bore will be the first thing I do.

I have some .375 balls to use.

I have posted this question on other threads in TFL and they are saying the same thing.

I slugged the bore on a rifle that was giving me some leading problems with the bullet I was using.

We shall see.
__________________
Seek truth. Relax. Take a breath.
Doc Hoy is offline  
Old September 30, 2013, 06:46 AM   #4
Doc Hoy
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 24, 2008
Location: Naples, Fl
Posts: 5,440
I owe y'all including the thread administrators an apology

I did not realize it was not permitted to post similar posts on two different forums.

And I did indeed ask essentially the same questions and make the same statements on two different forums on TFL. I was trying to increase coverage thinking that some readers only visit certain forums.

But now I know that is con copusthetic.
__________________
Seek truth. Relax. Take a breath.
Doc Hoy is offline  
Old September 30, 2013, 07:06 AM   #5
Brit
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 29, 2005
Location: Orlando FL
Posts: 1,934
The Revolver our Officer was issued for field exercises, (Brit National Service) in Germany in 1956, I know antiques! Was an Enfield, .38 S&W.

This same weapon was once fired inadvertently! The Guard commander playing quick draw!

The round struck one of the Guards, in the back.

Right in the center of his cross straps, which were over a Great Coat, heavy wool, a sweater, shirt, and tee shirt.

Did not penetrate, but a huge bruise. Don't remember the outcome, not that big?
Brit is offline  
Old September 30, 2013, 10:37 AM   #6
darkgael
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 9, 2006
Location: Homes in Brooklyn, NY and in Pennsylvania.
Posts: 5,472
.38?

So which is it? .38 S&W or .38 LC? They are dimensionally different, the S&W cartridge being slightly fatter and loading a bullet at 0.361-0.362.
Yes, you can shoot the LC in a .38 S&W chamber but the brass will deform.
Pete
__________________
“Auto racing, bull fighting, and mountain climbing are the only real sports ... all others are games.” Ernest Hemingway ...
NRA Life Member
darkgael is offline  
Old September 30, 2013, 03:46 PM   #7
Mike Irwin
Staff
 
Join Date: April 13, 2000
Location: Northern Virginia
Posts: 41,367
"Yes, you can shoot the LC in a .38 S&W chamber but the brass will deform."

Often you can't, simply because guns chambered for .38 S&W have cylinders that are too short to accommodate the significantly longer .38 Long Colt cartridge without the bullet extending past the front of the cylinder.

Exceptions to that would be WW II-era guns, such as the S&W Hand Ejector, made for Britain and chambered for their version of the .38 S&W cartridge.
__________________
"The gift which I am sending you is called a dog, and is in fact the most precious and valuable possession of mankind" -Theodorus Gaza

Baby Jesus cries when the fat redneck doesn't have military-grade firepower.
Mike Irwin is offline  
Old September 30, 2013, 09:26 PM   #8
Doc Hoy
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 24, 2008
Location: Naples, Fl
Posts: 5,440
When I get the revolver....

I will make some measurements.
__________________
Seek truth. Relax. Take a breath.
Doc Hoy is offline  
Old October 4, 2013, 11:59 AM   #9
Doc Hoy
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 24, 2008
Location: Naples, Fl
Posts: 5,440
Finally got home to pick up the revolver

Here is a view next to the Geroco Herbert Schmidt .357 Texas Scout. for size.

The Geroco is a big revolver and so the comparison is fairly pronounced.



Note the frame design on the Belgian revolver. It is stepped about halfway up the frame.



Here is the other side

__________________
Seek truth. Relax. Take a breath.
Doc Hoy is offline  
Old October 4, 2013, 12:05 PM   #10
Doc Hoy
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 24, 2008
Location: Naples, Fl
Posts: 5,440
Some more shots...

This revolver comes apart easily but the parts fit snug.

Operation is nearly perfect to the extent I am able to tell.



The bolt and rigger are all one piece. The cylinder is held in battery by the bolt in the clockwise direction and by the hand in the counterclockwise direction.



But with the hammer down, the cylinder rotates freely. Lock up and indexing is good in both single and double action modes. This is a scary design.
Bore on the revolver is excellent.

__________________
Seek truth. Relax. Take a breath.

Last edited by Doc Hoy; October 4, 2013 at 12:24 PM.
Doc Hoy is offline  
Old October 4, 2013, 12:10 PM   #11
Doc Hoy
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 24, 2008
Location: Naples, Fl
Posts: 5,440
The grips...

...Are made of some material from an animal I think. The underside of the grips clearly have a natural pattern to them. If it is wood, it is of a variety I have never seen before but that would not be the first time.



In these photos, there appears to be a grain such as you might find in a burly or birds eye grain wood, but I believe it is a little too translucent to be wood.

I am thinking some kind of bone.

__________________
Seek truth. Relax. Take a breath.

Last edited by Doc Hoy; October 4, 2013 at 12:46 PM.
Doc Hoy is offline  
Old October 4, 2013, 12:21 PM   #12
Doc Hoy
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 24, 2008
Location: Naples, Fl
Posts: 5,440
I slugged the bore on the revolver...

and as near as I can tell it is somewhere on the order of .356. This would make it right for either a .38 Special or a .357 Magnum mold and sizing die.

So I think that is where I will start.

It is difficult to measure because the barrel has five grooves and so getting a good diameter is hard to do.

The left side of the barrel of the revolver is marked with the words:

"For .38 L. Colts - .38 S & W Special CTGS".

So my plan is to get some .38 Long Colt cases, use my .38 Special/.357 Magnum molds and dies and loads some moderate Black Powder Long Colt rounds.
__________________
Seek truth. Relax. Take a breath.
Doc Hoy is offline  
Old October 4, 2013, 12:30 PM   #13
Doc Hoy
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 24, 2008
Location: Naples, Fl
Posts: 5,440
As regards the origin or date of manufacture...

...I have read that these revolvers were manufactured by small armorers in Belgium sometime between 1885 and 1933. I have read that the likely manufacturer is FAUL of the 1960NMA fame. The only number I could find on the revolver including under the grips is "18". If that is the serial number, the revolver is for sale for 700.00. ;o)

There are numerous Belgian proof marks and under the grips are the initials T.F. and B.D.

The bottom of the barrel is marked "18 Belgium". I wonder if 1918 is the year of manufacture.

One clue might be the lack of a serial number. In what year did Belgium begin to require serial numbers on weapons manufactured in the country?
__________________
Seek truth. Relax. Take a breath.
Doc Hoy is offline  
Old October 4, 2013, 12:52 PM   #14
bedbugbilly
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 19, 2009
Posts: 3,282
Doc - interesting pistol - thanks for the photos.

I have a Belgium Colt (copy) that was my g-uncles. He was a traveling salesman for International Harvester in the late 1890s. The one I have is chambered in 32-20 WCF. Mine does not have the "step" in the lower frame like yours does. The only markings on it are the 32-20 WCF on the rear of the barrel near the frame and Belgium proofs on the cylinder back - no serial number. I'd post some photos of it but unfortunately, it's at our place in AZ and I'm in MI.

I've never been able to find much out about it. I have to think though that possibly there was more than one place cranking these out? In the case of my g-uncle's, I would imagine he bought it to carry on his travels as he sold throughout the mid-west and west. I have the "store bought" flap holster and cartridge belt that was with it and I have no reason to believe that they were not original to the gun. The leather is pretty cheaply made - machine sewn holster seam and roller type embossed border on the front bucket of the holster.

The outward appearance of mine is similar to yours in regards to age/patina. Mine functions but the bore is so bad it's a "wall hanger".

I hope you'll be able to come up with more on yours - it's interesting and I'm sure will fit in fine with your herd. I'm assuming you'll be trying it out?
__________________
If a pair of '51 Navies were good enough for Billy Hickok, then a single Navy on my right hip is good enough for me . . . besides . . . I'm probably only half as good as he was anyways. Hiram's Rangers Badge #63
bedbugbilly is offline  
Old October 4, 2013, 12:59 PM   #15
James K
Member In Memoriam
 
Join Date: March 17, 1999
Posts: 24,383
That gun actually resembles the Colt Model 1877 "Lightining" more than the SAA, which is a larger gun. The lockwork sounds very much like the old H&R guns. In use, such guns are best carried hammer down on a fired cartridge case; on an empty chamber the cylinder can rotate backward and bring up the empty chamber instead of the next loaded one.

In case you should find that .357 Magnum fits, please do not fire it. I would hesitate to fire even standard .38 Special in those guns. Some of those guns were also made in Spain, so unless it has Belgian proof marks, be extra careful.

Sorry to say this, but IMHO (worth what you pay for it) that gun is in terrible condition, and even if in new condition would not be worth even half of the $225 figure.

Jim
James K is offline  
Old October 4, 2013, 01:15 PM   #16
Mike Irwin
Staff
 
Join Date: April 13, 2000
Location: Northern Virginia
Posts: 41,367
Year of production was most likely post 1900-1902.

There's some debate on exactly when the .38 Special was first released, some say 1899, some say 1902. Neither here nor there.

I doubt if it would have been made in 1918. Until November most, if not all, of Belgium was still occupied by the German Army.
__________________
"The gift which I am sending you is called a dog, and is in fact the most precious and valuable possession of mankind" -Theodorus Gaza

Baby Jesus cries when the fat redneck doesn't have military-grade firepower.
Mike Irwin is offline  
Old October 4, 2013, 04:21 PM   #17
Doc Hoy
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 24, 2008
Location: Naples, Fl
Posts: 5,440
James..., and Mike....

James,

Have no intention of shooting anything larger than .38 LC in it and they will be loaded with BP.

Mike,

I think the manufacturer meant .38 S & W and am uncertain as to the reason for adding the word "special"

.38 S & W fits nicely in the chamber. .38 Special is a little sloppy.
__________________
Seek truth. Relax. Take a breath.
Doc Hoy is offline  
Old October 5, 2013, 09:41 AM   #18
Doc Hoy
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 24, 2008
Location: Naples, Fl
Posts: 5,440
Value..philosophical

James' point on the value of this revolver is well put.

When I saw the revolver and the price, and before I decided to buy it, I went to the internet and found some previous auctions for the revolver which ended in the low two hundreds, some as old as 2008, and so I thought, given that I would not have to pay shipping and not have to pay the FFL fee (I have a C&R license) that 225.00 must be a fair price reflecting on the value of the revolver. The ones that I saw in ended auctions were in condition inferior to this one. One looked better cosmetically but didn't operate properly.

So I went back and agreed to buy the pistol at 225.00. THEN I did a little more reading online. In some of the blogs, I read that posters had purchased similar revolvers (in unstated condition) for fifty and a hundred bucks. Some of those posts were quite old but still, it became pretty clear that I might have paid more than the value of the revolver would warrant.

So now my ego kicks in. Right? I am trying to rationalize why I did not get taken on the purchase of this revolver. I started looking for other examples available for sale presently and could not find any. Still, it is pretty clear the revolver isn't worth 225.00.

So I asked myself the question: Knowing what I know, now, would I still buy it for 225.00? It may sound odd, but I think I would.

The original price on the revolver was 250.00 and I know that the LGS owner will come down by ten percent on consignment items. I have done a fair amount of business with him and I trust him.

When I went looking for values the first time, I was very gratified to see ended auctions for lower two hundreds because I knew I wanted the revolver and was only trying to verify the value was close to what I was paying. (Even though I had already pretty much decided to buy it.)

James has far more knowledge and experience than I do so his evaluation of the revolver is rock solid.

I guess in order to salve my ego, I have to accept that what I paid for it is okay with me.
__________________
Seek truth. Relax. Take a breath.
Doc Hoy is offline  
Old October 7, 2013, 06:43 AM   #19
Mike Irwin
Staff
 
Join Date: April 13, 2000
Location: Northern Virginia
Posts: 41,367
"I think the manufacturer meant .38 S & W and am uncertain as to the reason for adding the word "special"

.38 S & W fits nicely in the chamber. .38 Special is a little sloppy."

Then the .38 Long Colt is going to be sloppy, as well.

The .38 S&W was a one-off cartridge that was a developmental dead end.

The .38 Special was derived from the .38 Long Colt, using the same case dimensions except slightly longer to hold more powder.

By contrast, the .38 S&W has a slightly fatter case and slightly larger bullet.

Chances are pretty good that .38 LC cases will swell, and accuracy may not be all that great.
__________________
"The gift which I am sending you is called a dog, and is in fact the most precious and valuable possession of mankind" -Theodorus Gaza

Baby Jesus cries when the fat redneck doesn't have military-grade firepower.
Mike Irwin is offline  
Old October 7, 2013, 07:14 AM   #20
Doc Hoy
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 24, 2008
Location: Naples, Fl
Posts: 5,440
Maybe I should just accept the fact

And just shoot .38 S&W and leave the .38 Long Colt alone, figuring that the manufacturer marked the revolver in a way that permitted some flexibility. Perhaps they were thinking two things.

1. We can sell more revolvers if we advertise that they will accept two rounds rather than just one. (Especially when the second is a more powerful round.)

2. The handloader did not make up a large part of their market and consequently the primary problem with .38 LC (enlarged cases after discharge) would not be a big deal.
__________________
Seek truth. Relax. Take a breath.
Doc Hoy is offline  
Old October 7, 2013, 09:41 AM   #21
Jim Watson
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 25, 2001
Location: Alabama
Posts: 18,453
There is such a thing as a 9mm Belgian Revolver cartridge. Also a .38 Largo Spanish revolver, pretty much a Euro .38 Long Colt.
Maybe they used a reamer on hand and just changed the roll marks to suit the American market.
Jim Watson is offline  
Old October 7, 2013, 10:45 AM   #22
Mike Irwin
Staff
 
Join Date: April 13, 2000
Location: Northern Virginia
Posts: 41,367
I thought the "9mm Belgian" revolver cartridge was nothing more than the European designation for the .38 Smith & Wesson. In fact, I'm pretty sure that it was.

Apparently a LOT of Belgian revolvers were chambered for it over the years, so it makes sense that they might well have used those chambering specs.
__________________
"The gift which I am sending you is called a dog, and is in fact the most precious and valuable possession of mankind" -Theodorus Gaza

Baby Jesus cries when the fat redneck doesn't have military-grade firepower.
Mike Irwin is offline  
Old October 7, 2013, 11:55 AM   #23
Doc Hoy
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 24, 2008
Location: Naples, Fl
Posts: 5,440
When I search 9 MM Belgian...

....I got mostly pinfire cartridge and pinfire pistol entries.
__________________
Seek truth. Relax. Take a breath.
Doc Hoy is offline  
Old October 7, 2013, 01:10 PM   #24
TomADC
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 14, 2009
Location: San Diego County
Posts: 795
here's mine ones a 38 & one is a 32.

__________________
US Navy Retired,NRA Life Member,SASS member, Time magazine's Person of the Year 2006!
TomADC is offline  
Old October 7, 2013, 01:33 PM   #25
Jim Watson
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 25, 2001
Location: Alabama
Posts: 18,453
I have a picture of a 9mm Belgian Revolver with paper patched bullet.
Never saw THAT on a .38 S&W.
Jim Watson is offline  
Reply

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 10:11 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
This site and contents, including all posts, Copyright © 1998-2021 S.W.A.T. Magazine
Copyright Complaints: Please direct DMCA Takedown Notices to the registered agent: thefiringline.com
Page generated in 0.16500 seconds with 10 queries