357 maximum carbine

[johnwilliamson062]

Anyone use 357 max out of a carbine for deer? What ranges? Velocity? Trajectory? Bullet weights?
I've read it can emulate a 30-30 with a little bigger hole. Is that your experience?
Results in the field?

[NoSecondBest]

I have a Browning Low Wall in .357max that I've used to take three deer with in the last two years. I know everyone likes to compare it to the 30-30, but it's a much better comparison between it and the .357mag. Yes, you can really bump it up and compare it to something else but from my bench time and testing, it's at its best with somewhat milder loads. Either the 158g XTP or the 180g XTP will easily drop a deer with no problem. This year I had a shot at a large doe at 63 lasered yards and the bullet was a 180g XTP traveling at 1800+ fps. It was a complete pass through side ways (as expected) and the deer then ran uphill and stopped facing away from me. It was less than thirty yards from the next states border so I took a Texas heart shot at it and the bullet passed completely through from end to end at a lasered 97 yards. I've found the 158 grain to be a bit more accurate but they don't exit. Still, they expand to almost double their original diameter. My gun will shoot sub moa five shot groups with some loads at a measured 114 yards. It's a great deer caliber and I don't think you'd have any problems on deer out to 150 yards with the 180g bullet. I actually wouldn't hesitate to shoot a deer with the 158g bullet. I've shot over fifty deer with the .357mag out of various handguns over the last forty years and it's quite adequate for that job.

[steveno]

if you can find them you might look at the Speer 180 grain flat point rifle bullet because of the cannelure location you will gain a little more powder capacity. this bullet shot really good from a TC super 14

[kcub]

I have a Browning Low Wall in .357max that I've used to take three deer with in the last two years.

Did they make them originally chambered that way or did you have it bored out or rebarrelled?

[Guv]

steveno,
That's what I load in my 10" TC, excellent bullet! Stuck a few in some feral hogs, no bullets recovered.

[johnwilliamson062]

KCUB, I'm pretty certain that is a custom rig. Only a few factory guns in 357 max and that isn't one I have ever read about.

I wish I could get approximate trajectory charts for all the Ohio rounds somewhere. I really want the flattest lightest recoiling legal round out to 200 yards. I'd really like to keep my shots inside 50, and I think I can accomplish that with good scouting, but can see 200 yard shots as reasonable once I have some time in with a set-up.

.357 Magnum, .357 Maximum, .38 Special, .375 Super Magnum, .375 Winchester, .38-55, .41 Long Colt, .41 Magnum, .44 Special, .44 Magnum, .444 Marlin, .45 ACP, .45 Colt, .45 Long Colt, .45 Winchester Magnum, .45 Smith & Wesson, .454 Casull, .460 Smith & Wesson, .45-70, .45-90, .45-110, .475 Linebaugh, .50-70, .50-90, .50-100, .50-110 and .500 Smith & Wesson.

I really love the 45/70 set-up I have. So much more accurate than any of the shotguns I tried and so much easier than a muzzleloader. Half the price of my ML shots and a dollar less than the Hornady slugs per shot. So I should shoot it twice as much, right? Problem is I am well on my way to 3x as much. Worse, it has made me far more interested in the other legal cartridge carbines.

[kcub]

What is the law? Is 50-95 legal?

[johnwilliamson062]

Just those specifically listed calibers right now. Probably add more cartidges in a few years. I'm starting to push for 300 BLK and 30/30, but those go against two staple of ODNR deer regulations. .38+ and straight wall.

I'm really looking for a lighter, faster, flatter round than 45/70, which is what I used this year. The factory loads I ended up with were labeled "elk,moose, black bear." I'm trying for shots inside 50 yards and staying inside 125 is pretty easy. I've realized the 45/70 is massive overkill at those ranges. 50-95 seems even more so. It works and I can still use it, but started looking on the classifieds pages for a used Encore carbine barrel in 357 max or mag to be re-chambered to max.

I spoke with a buddy today who mentioned he had to unload and clean his ML tonight. Couldn't be happier ODNR changed the rules so I can simply break the action and pull out the cartridge at sun down. Also, SO much more accurate than any of the shotgun set-ups I tried.

[NoSecondBest]

The Low Wall is a Browning/Miroku rechambered from 357mag to 357mag by Bellm.

There is nothing about the 45-70 that makes it "massive overkill". It simply puts a 45 caliber hole into and animal and kills it. Dead is dead. It doesn't blow up, explode, disintegrate, or anything else. In fact, loaded to the original factory power levels it's quite pleasant to shoot. A 400g bullet lobbing along at around 1400 fps is actually less powerful than my Savage ML2 muzzle loader moving a 250g bullet at over 2200fps. Also, two hundred yards isn't all that far for a 45-70 to kill a deer. Knowing the yardage and the bullet drop makes it quite easy. I have killed several deer now with my 357max and I've shot quite a few more with my 45-70s (I have three). Reloading will open a lot of possibilities for any caliber and having the ability to measure or estimate yardage will allow many different calibers to use. FWIW, I've killed over fifty deer with the .357mag in a handgun and several of the shots were at or around the hundred yard mark.

[johnwilliamson062]

There is nothing about the 45-70 that makes it "massive overkill". It simply puts a 45 caliber hole into and animal and kills it. Dead is dead. It doesn't blow up, explode, disintegrate, or anything else.

The effect may be the same on the deer's end, but not on my end. I'm not sure about saying it does not cause more meat damage than a lighter cartridge. I am definitely using loads beyond the black powder loads. STill much lighter than a 12ga slug.

Also, two hundred yards isn't all that far for a 45-70 to kill a deer.

I know. If I was going for 3-400 yard shots with the Ohio regulations it would be a better choice. I'm actually looking at No. 1s in 45/70, but not for deer hunting.

Inside 200 357max should do the job well. It will be nice to have the 45/70 so I have ready access to factory ammunition.

[Rich Mc]

Anybody put a chrono to the 158 gr XTP FP with "around" 19.5-20.5 grains of Lil Gun behind it? That's a 357 max load but I use something like that in a 357 mag rifle. The load shoots about an inch at 100 yards.

It is very impressive to see a deer just crumple to that load. Wife dropped 2 this year - 65 yards and 75 yards. Both frontal quartering shots and both DRT.

You can get an H&R 357 mag and bore it out to 357 max. There used to be some guys renting the tools - stick it in and turn, add oil and turn again kind of deal. I thought about it but already shoot a max load and it works good. The tool was about $115 to purchase when I was looking 5 years ago. Google it for more info.

[johnwilliamson062]

You can get an H&R 357 mag and bore it out to 357 max.

In theory, but they are now discontinued and the used ones are pure unobtanium.

I should be able to eventually find a blued 357 Encore barrel for right around $200. Sometime in the next decade...

[shortwave]

Out of curiosity johnwilliamson, why not the 44 mag.?
Is it due to the flatter trajectory?

[johnwilliamson062]

I have a 14" 460 SW pistol barrel I'd like to sell, but not for a price anyone wants to buy. Considering adding some sort of muzzle device to get it to 16". Depending on cost, may register it as a SBR instead. That would make the 44 mag pointless.

And the flatter trajectory. I love flat trajectory on hunting guns.

If I don't sell it all because I actually hate the entire system and how nothing is actually compatible with anything.

My Encore is a source of significant cognitive dissonance.

[Catfish]

I have a 357 Max. 16 in. barrel for my Enocre that I have taken 3 deer with. shortest shot abt. 50 yards. and longest 176 yards. It a great round for deer. I also have a 460 barrel for it, but I just cannot get it to shoot accurately enough that I will carry it hunting.

[Wyosmith]

The best way I know to get a 'high power" 35 cal lever gun ( meaning more power then a standard 357 magnum) is to buy a 35 Remington or to make a 357 Herrett on a Marlin 336.

I made one for a man who moved to Indiana in 357 Herrett. The misguided laws there make it difficult to use most rifle rounds. He shot the 187 grain cast bullets and is going to try some 200 grain custom bullets soon.

Not that there is a thing wrong with using a standard 357.
I used to run Cast Performance Bullet Co and we did a LOT of testing with 357 magnums with our 180 and 187 grain bullets and the energy was a tad better than a standard 30-30 load with 170 grain bullets and the accuracy at 100 yards was usually about 1.5" to 2". Out of 18.5" and 20" barrels it was common to get 1950 to 2025 FPS. Most factory 170 grain 30-30 loads actually chronographed only about 40 FPS faster, but with 17 grains less bullet.
I have seen the effects on deer and antelope many times, and my mold maker killed 7 elk with his carbine and got 100% penetration every time with 3/4" to 1" diameter wound channels.

I also know of many black bear kills made with those bullets and also one grizzle killed with a 187 grain WFN-GC bullet in Alaska.

But some folks want more, so for them I recommend a 35 Rem, or if you like making your own brass and ammo, the 357 Herrett is pretty cool.

If neither one of those is "powerful enough" it may be best to go to a 444 or a 45-70, or go to a Browning BLR in 308, 30-06 or one of the magnums.

[johnwilliamson062]

Those cartridges aren't legal for deer in Ohio.

[Wyosmith]

Which ones?

[johnwilliamson062]

35 Remington or to make a 357 Herrett

Those two.

[Wyosmith]

Well can you use a 444 marlin?
It's far more powerful than needed for deer, but so what?
It will kill them just fine.

[johnwilliamson062]

Yes, but I have a 45/70 which overlaps with 444 nicely. Looking for a softer option.

[NoSecondBest]

Yes, but I have a 45/70 which overlaps with 444 nicely. Looking for a softer option.

I currently own several 45-70s and one .357max in a Win Low Wall. I can't understand the idea of thinking of the 45-70 being a heavy recoiling rifle and looking for something softer. The 45-70 has a tremendous amount of versatility regarding recoil and muzzle energy. All most all of my loads out of all my 45-70s are around 1300-1500fps using bullets from 300g to 405g and none of these loads are "stout" in any way. The original load of the 45-70 back in the day was somewhere around 1100fps and it killed millions of buffalo. Yes, it's not a flat shooting varmit round, but that's rarely needed shooting white tails in the North East or Mid West. Every single deer I've shot with the 45-70 has been a complete pass through even with these "light" loads, regardless of distance or angle. I will ad though, my 357max shots have all been complete pass throughs also using 180 grain bullets. The longest shot was this year and the distance was a lasered 93 yards and it was an end-to-end shot. Just load the 45-70 down if you can't find a 357max you like. FWIW, the 357mag(mag) is just about as effective out of a rifle as the max is. I've killed over 50 white tails with various 357mag handguns over the last 40+ years and have yet to lose one with that caliber. It's even more effective in a rifle such as the Marlin lever gun which I had.

[johnwilliamson062]

Sometimes I wonder if I've wandered onto the everytown for gun control board with all the arguments AGAINST purchasing a firearm here.

Good to hear you have had such success with the 357 carbine.

I'm shooting loads labeled at 1900 FPS. They still arc quite a bit. The recoil, compared to a 12ga with slugs, is mild. I will be using it in one form or another until I find a 357 max or something else shiny catches my eye.

In 357 max I can get a much flatter and lower recoiling shot with sufficient power at the ranges I require. I may even be able to carry both barrels at the same time and decide when I get set-up.

They should both be great cartridges to start reloading for also.

Someone at the SP forum gave me a lead on a 357 Max.