lower regs

skizzums · February 9, 2015, 12:57 AM

I was just sitting here, as I shop for my new 99m AR barrel, and was wondering about 80% and all the hoops ATF is going through to try to get them off OTC product. I was trying to figure out reasons why they are constantly trying to go after these manufacturers. the it came to mind, with the inro of 80%'ers, could you possibly make any ar15 unserialized. what's to stop me from buying a gun FTF and milling out the receiver number wherever it may be and just claiming it to be an 80% that I finished myself. is there something I am missing? is there any way to tell that you have just removed the serial, so well as you did a good job of making it like it was never there? I assume their is no registry sitting around that they could find out what gun I bought and to match it to the one I am using.

this I just a pure hypothetical, I have several 80% lowers and only one with a serial, so I have no need to want to do this, just a curiosity question about what's stopping that from taking place. no that removing the serial after the fact is going to matter anyways

Nickel Plated · February 9, 2015, 01:13 AM

You could I guess. Except if they see just that one milled out spot where the serial numbers usually go, then it would be kinda obvious. You would need to mill away ALL the various manufacturer marks (most AR receivers are marked all over the place) and make it look like you built a lightened 80% but once you start taking off that much metal in all those places, then you need to start thinking about the strength of the thing.
Also, none of this would be legal of course. Removing serial numbers and manufacturer marks and all.

In the end. Why bother? If you have the equipment to mill away the markings and make it look convincing, then you have the equipment to just mill out an 80% lower. For alot less hassle and risk.
With modern idiot-proof jigs designed to use a cheap router. It's really not hard or expensive to finish an 80% lower.

62coltnavy · February 9, 2015, 01:25 AM

Removing a serial number from a firearm is a felony. If it is not a firearm--e.g., an 80% lower, then you might have a successful argument in defense of the felony charge. But why would you want to have to fight the felony?

The ATF's stated concern with the 80% lower is that unserialized firearms are "untraceable," and can be manufactured without engaging the services of an FFL. They also claim, as did California Senator De Leon, that these unserialized firearms are being increasingly used by gang members to commit (unspecified) crimes. The only actual crimes that I have heard of were the bank robbery in Stockton in which a number of criminals and one victim died after a lengthy shootout, and a recent store robbery where the AR pistol was actually a converted AR rifle with the serial number removed. (After January 1, 2014, all firearms sales are recorded in California). wile it is true that many unserialized firearms are seized in raids on felons and gang members, the seizure making them "crime guns," does not mean that they are actually being used to commit crimes as opposed to being possessed by prohibited persons, which is a big difference. So the concern may be overstated, but is reflective of a push not only for back ground checks but universal registration of all firearms, and all firearms transactions.

**Frank Ettin** · February 9, 2015, 09:47 AM

Skirting the edge of legality with no place to go.

February 9, 2015, 12:57 AM	#1
skizzums Senior Member Join Date: July 1, 2013 Location: Douglasville, Ga Posts: 4,615	lower regs I was just sitting here, as I shop for my new 99m AR barrel, and was wondering about 80% and all the hoops ATF is going through to try to get them off OTC product. I was trying to figure out reasons why they are constantly trying to go after these manufacturers. the it came to mind, with the inro of 80%'ers, could you possibly make any ar15 unserialized. what's to stop me from buying a gun FTF and milling out the receiver number wherever it may be and just claiming it to be an 80% that I finished myself. is there something I am missing? is there any way to tell that you have just removed the serial, so well as you did a good job of making it like it was never there? I assume their is no registry sitting around that they could find out what gun I bought and to match it to the one I am using. this I just a pure hypothetical, I have several 80% lowers and only one with a serial, so I have no need to want to do this, just a curiosity question about what's stopping that from taking place. no that removing the serial after the fact is going to matter anyways __________________ My head is bloody, but unbowed

February 9, 2015, 09:47 AM	#4
Frank Ettin Staff Join Date: November 23, 2005 Location: California - San Francisco Posts: 9,471	Skirting the edge of legality with no place to go. __________________ "It is long been a principle of ours that one is no more armed because he has possession of a firearm than he is a musician because he owns a piano. There is no point in having a gun if you are not capable of using it skillfully." -- Jeff Cooper

February 9, 2015, 01:13 AM	#2
Nickel Plated Senior Member Join Date: January 17, 2010 Location: Brooklyn, NYC Posts: 610	You could I guess. Except if they see just that one milled out spot where the serial numbers usually go, then it would be kinda obvious. You would need to mill away ALL the various manufacturer marks (most AR receivers are marked all over the place) and make it look like you built a lightened 80% but once you start taking off that much metal in all those places, then you need to start thinking about the strength of the thing. Also, none of this would be legal of course. Removing serial numbers and manufacturer marks and all. In the end. Why bother? If you have the equipment to mill away the markings and make it look convincing, then you have the equipment to just mill out an 80% lower. For alot less hassle and risk. With modern idiot-proof jigs designed to use a cheap router. It's really not hard or expensive to finish an 80% lower.

February 9, 2015, 01:25 AM	#3
62coltnavy Senior Member Join Date: February 1, 2011 Posts: 356	Removing a serial number from a firearm is a felony. If it is not a firearm--e.g., an 80% lower, then you might have a successful argument in defense of the felony charge. But why would you want to have to fight the felony? The ATF's stated concern with the 80% lower is that unserialized firearms are "untraceable," and can be manufactured without engaging the services of an FFL. They also claim, as did California Senator De Leon, that these unserialized firearms are being increasingly used by gang members to commit (unspecified) crimes. The only actual crimes that I have heard of were the bank robbery in Stockton in which a number of criminals and one victim died after a lengthy shootout, and a recent store robbery where the AR pistol was actually a converted AR rifle with the serial number removed. (After January 1, 2014, all firearms sales are recorded in California). wile it is true that many unserialized firearms are seized in raids on felons and gang members, the seizure making them "crime guns," does not mean that they are actually being used to commit crimes as opposed to being possessed by prohibited persons, which is a big difference. So the concern may be overstated, but is reflective of a push not only for back ground checks but universal registration of all firearms, and all firearms transactions.