To stir up old discontent... MA training

[MLeake]

Morihei Ueshiba himself said that his aikido was 90% atemi, or the strikes and feints that help set up a technique. Most of the good aikidoka I know have backgrounds in karate, TKD, jujutsu, judo, kenpo, wrestling, etc. It's rare to find a serious aikidoka who started with aikido. So there are a wide variety of atemi potentially available to aikido folk.

As far as MA vs bouncers vs brawlers, it depends in large part on who the MA, bouncer, or brawler are.

I will say this, though: If you don't train in one way or another for physical confrontations, you will most likely have your butt handed to you by most MA, bouncers, or brawlers.

But since this is a firearm tactics forum, and we don't want to get too far afield, one of the main benefits to aikido is that it offers a lot of good ways to evade an initial attack or slip out of a grab, hence buying the time necessary to get to your weapon.

Face it, none of us are in condition yellow all the time. Bad people who aren't incredibly stupid will probably do their best not to give advance notice of ill intentions. Training that helps build up evasion and avoidance relexes at first contact could come in very handy; this becomes more true, the deeper your concealment rig is buried.

Obviously, if we had advance notice, we would either a) not still be in the area or b) already have weapon in hand. a) is the better option, when available and ethical (IE we don't leave an elderly woman in harm's way when we leave, etc)

[MLeake]

(with regard to pushing a semi-auto's slide out of battery to disable it)
"If you're close enough to try this technique you'll probably have better luck with a disarm technique and just take the turds gun away from him."

First, I agree. Please not post 1 on this thread; if the shooter knows what he's doing, it's very easy to counter this technique. I don't advocate the pushing the slide technique unless you are point blank and have no other option but to do anything to buy time.

It's a lot better idea to get out of the way of the muzzle, and do something along the lines of kotogaeshi to turn the muzzle back on the shooter, and either take the gun away or break his trigger finger - if it works. In any case, getting out of the way and redirecting the muzzle gives you a twofer strategy, while you go for your own weapon.

It's a better idea to not be there in the first place, but we don't always have that option.

[Wanpaku1]

I am not claiming to be some sort of master of MA. Just giving my viewpoint. Over the years I've trained Aikido, Judo, Sambo, Muy Thai, boxing and mixed. I've learned a lot of useful and completely useless information for the real world (from alll of them), but I have learned a lot about mindset, body movements, anticipation of opponents actions etc. Just for that, I would say that the training has been worthwhile.

The group I work out with now has a pretty diverse MA background and we all bring what we know, but one of the most interesting and useful things we have is a bunch of training knives, guns and other weapons. It is interesting to see the dynamic of a training session change when, in the middle of sparring, a knife or a gun or a bat (or multiple weapons) is thrown on the mat. It is a totally different mindset when it changes from a "how do I disable/control this guy" to "how do I get control of that weapon or keep him from getting control of that weapon." Changes your priorities real quick.

Martial arts is very useful as long as you are training for the real world and not just to get a pretty colored belt or compete in an overly refereed match.

[Kyo]

Priorities change, but when it comes to a weapon too many focus on the weapon part. Instead of worrying about the weapon shouldn't you be worried about disabling the guy who is focused on the weapon?

[markj]

Judo is a sport which can be used as self defense.

Judo teaches you how to land on the ground and not get hurt, I recommend learning this first in any MA training program. Also useful as a bouncer with the holds etc. This was in the early 70s BTW.

You know they were blackbelts?

Yes I knew they were, but as a boxer I simply knocked them out, this was not during work tho. Had my rear end handed to me once tho by a Korean guy weighed like 90 lbs wet. Had no belt that I know of.

Doesn't sound like you were a very good bouncer either. A bouncers job is not to"knock people out." lol

I did have a life outside of work dude. Used to fight golden gloves way back when.

MA isnt the end all, do not get into the mind set that it is or you will get your rear handed to you. Lots of very tough people out there.

So just how do you carry in a gi? mine had no pockets

I also disarmed a few at work, took their weapons right from them but I have training. Got shot once too, also stabbed in the back of my neck. A bouncers life isnt all looking good and picking up chicks. Was over 20 years ago, I have moved on....

[grymster2007]

I'm not real big on the MA. I've just seen too many "expert" MA guys get the crap kicked out of them by a good street fighter. I've been in quite a number of street fights myself and the MA guys I've fought have fared no better and no worse than others. I'm a pretty big guy, but had the most difficulty with little guys and really, really big guys, but their MA experience seemed to matter not.

I have a brother that wrestled throughout high school, into college, then some amateur free style and made it to the Olympic tryouts in '92. I think I could have made a lot of money matching him up against martial arts guys.

Don't get me wrong. Training in hand-to-hand combat is a good thing for most people. I just think a lot of people learn a lot of over-dramatic fluff that merely serves to build dangerously inflated confidence.

[MLeake]

For that matter, I wrestled back when. And a lot of the guys I work out with are cops and prison guards. You might say we have a pretty practical mindset. I avoid schools that are too kata or tournament oriented. Not my thing.

You may have missed the earlier post about one of the guys from my current school successfully disarming criminals on multiple occasions, in his work as a narc. I think he found his jujutsu and aikido training up to the task. Then again, he trains hard, with survival as a motivator. Some people just train for their ego.

Note the fable about the hound and the hare: the hound was only running for his dinner, whereas the hare was running for his life...

I'll agree that flash is overrated. Belts may be utterly meaningless, depending on the organization. OTOH, distance, timing, movement, and balance are always useful. I've found myself incorporating aikido principles in activities ranging from skiing to piloting aircraft to handling horses.

Did you ever stop to think that the MA guys you were so unimpressed with either: a) went to a belt mill type of school, or b) weren't truly serious practitioners?

I've seen some street fighters that I would not want to have to take on. However, it's kind of hard to train by street fighting, at least if you can't afford an arrest record or the attendant court costs.

[grymster2007]

Did you ever stop to think that the MA guys you were so unimpressed with either: a) went to a belt mill type of school, or b) weren't truly serious practitioners?

Nope. The McDojo guys are a joke, I'm talking about the real deal. In my experience, while the serious ones were better, I still didn't think their efforts quite prepared them for what they faced.

I've seen some street fighters that I would not want to have to take on. However, it's kind of hard to train by street fighting, at least if you can't afford an arrest record or the attendant court costs.

The good street fighters I've known didn't really care about the life-cost; it's just what they did. But from what I've seen and experienced, martial arts experts and boxers didn't stand a chance against these guys. Not that I recommend gaining hand-to-hand combat abilities through dangerous and/or illegal activities.

... these days I actually recommend love, not war.

[riggins_83]

A detective friend of mine made me feel like a fool when he demonstrated he could take the top part of my gun off with one swipe
your friend wouldn't happen to be jet li would he?
and you wouldn't happen to be mel gibson would you?

A classic . That's why I carry a 1911.. let's see Jet Li try to take that gun down with one hand!!!

[samurai30047]

I've been hearing the same argument for years. What styles best. Sounds like a bad B movie. It depends on the person of course. I've been in law enforcement for 22 years and half of that in prison. Not all of us take our job seriously but those of us that do have gotten into some type of fighting style. Even my 350 lbs coworker that is somewhat famous for his butterbean style k.o's has had some training in jujitsu. It depends on the situation. For disarm techniques I have to think that Commando Krav Maga is the best one out there. I did it for a while, it's expensive but so are hospital bills. There's no substitute for hands on. I love videos and movies but when we have a minute at work we'll spar a little. Getting choked only hurts till you tap.

[5whiskey]

The good street fighters I've known didn't really care about the life-cost; it's just what they did.

And that is why you see some great Martial Artists knocked out by them. It's not that the Martial Artist isn't proficient, or couldn't be VERY dangerous. It's the mindset. Most MAs don't have a desire to do Mortal Combat for lifestyle, regardless of consequences. It's that attitude that "I want to be the baddest man on the block, even if I have to go to prison to do it" that makes one ESPECIALLY dangerous... as they've been in more life and death situations than anyone else just because they choose to put themselves there.

On the other hand, most MAs are taught discipline and restraint. They don't have the desire to cause physical harm, they just know how to should the need arise. They doesn't mean they have a weak mind, it's just an apples to oranges comparison on mindset.

[MLeake]

So, you are basically saying that if you can't take on the baddest of the bad, there's no point in training at all.

In which case, there's no point in taking on anybody, but why worry?

[fastbolt]

In a way this thread reminds me of conversations among martial arts students back in the early 70's, especially when I read the term "streetfighter". That takes me back.

Most self defense students, and even many intermediate beginners with their shodan or nidan ranking (for those arts which offered belt rankings), were always talking about being able to defend themselves against 'a streetfighter'.

There were always the 'dojo tigers' to be found, too.

I've had an active involvement in the arts for 38 years and spent the better part of almost 3 decades in LE. I have yet to figure out what an actual 'streetfighter' is supposed to be, although I've met a fair number of folks who were willing to fight anyone else, including LE. Some had training and some didn't. Some had local jail & prison time behind them and some didn't. Some had US or foreign military time behind them and some didn't. Some had some foreign criminal activity behind them and some didn't. If they weren't in-custody somewhere they were walking around on the streets. I guess you could say that if they fought while on the streets they were 'streetfighters'. Dunno.

Training in the arts can be a very worthwhile pursuit, although the reason for becoming involved many vary quite a bit from one person to the next. Self defense, sport, physical fitness, physical activity as a hobby or to compliment another favored physical pursuit, because of a job/profession, pursuit of the art, spiritual aspirations, etc., etc. Sometimes people come to it for one reason and stay for quite another. Sometimes people dabble in it and lose interest.

Hobby, rounding out a skill set for a specific set of anticipated circumstances, mindset, lifestyle, etc ... lots of choices.

[GojuBrian]

My best guess is the term 'streetfighter' is used for the everyday non-trained brawler one might encounter while out on the town or something along those lines,lol.

Martial arts ,like gun defense, is best implemented by training the way you would fight, but first determine why you are doing martials arts, then determine the best tool for the job.
There is a mindset to have and there is no way to train for every scenario.

Barking that a thug would own a martial artist is very generalized stereotyping typical of someone too lazy to train imo.

[rburch]

Yes I knew they were, but as a boxer I simply knocked them out, this was not during work tho. Had my rear end handed to me once tho by a Korean guy weighed like 90 lbs wet. Had no belt that I know of.

I may be wrong, but to my way of thinking that Korean was the only true Martial Artist you fought.

Although really streetfighting and boxing are Martial Arts in the basic meaning of the term.

[markj]

that Korean was the only true Martial Artist you fought

Wasnt a fight, he was to wrestle me in our training. I was like 245 he was 95 or 100. He could use my weight against me, made me miss knee drop take downs and such. Had a way of just touching me in a place to make me flinch away from him then he would take me down. Hard to describe. He could get a person off balance then he had them.

[Tucker 1371]

The two most important things in a hand to hand situation are center of gravity and momentum. The one with the lower CoG has a decisive advantage and the one who can use his opponents momentum against him effectively also has a decisive advantage. The one who has both wins the day.

The most important thing is to be thorough in your training. Practice it until you can't get it wrong. My high school wrestling coach always told me it took something like 4000 repititions before a move would be committed to muscle memory. I hated having to practice the new beginner moves at the beginning of the season until I saw the value in it and now I'm thankful I did.

I would recommend standard folkstyle wrestling as a good base to build off of. From there there are a thousand different ways to go. Right now I'm working on my jiu jitsu along with some kick boxing.

If you've got the funds I'd recommend Krav Maga, the MA used by the Israeli Special Forces. I wanted to do it but my local Martial Arts studio charges something that would come out to about $1800 per semester... only a hair less than I was paying for rent, cable, internet, and utilities combined.

When the SHTF I would rather have a gun but it's always preferable to be able to end a confrontation without one, MA just give you one more step in your response levels.

[Naterstein]

A detective friend of mine made me feel like a fool when he demonstrated he could take the top part of my gun off with one swipe.... floored me! (Taurus PT100 ..Beretta Clone)

HAHAHA!!!

[nitetrane98]

Just to bring this back into the realm of everyday instances. I have no idea from which disciplines these moves derived but we were taught some "basic come along" or "pain compliance" holds and moves in LE academy. These were so simple and so effective. We had to be so careful not to hurt our training buddy. We were also cautioned about what could happen with overzealous application. They could easily escalate resistance if the guy just didn't get the memo. Later we had gun retention drills, several of which would just about guarantee a broken bone for the BG somewhere if done at full speed. It definitely had to be practiced to stay sharp with. I wished I could have afforded some real training.

[MauiDoc]

And there is a problem with this. If the guy you're choking in a real-life situation 'taps out,' whether on purpose or inadvertently, YOU'RE GOING TO LET HIM GO!!! It's [I]ingrained[I] into you, carved into to your psyche by repetition and by socialization. What you train is what you'll do. If you doubt this, walk around to your co-workers, look them in the eye and smile and stick out your right hand. THEY WILL SHAKE IT. It's automatic. You can do it over and over. They'll look at you funny, but they can't stop. The same applies to training--never train to tap out--pay attention as you train, don't (overly) injure or kill your partner, but NEVER let your partner determine when a technique is completed. It could cost you dearly.

[Koz]

And there is a problem with this. If the guy you're choking in a real-life situation 'taps out,' whether on purpose or inadvertently, YOU'RE GOING TO LET HIM GO!!! It's [I]ingrained[I] into you, carved into to your psyche by repetition and by socialization. What you train is what you'll do. If you doubt this, walk around to your co-workers, look them in the eye and smile and stick out your right hand. THEY WILL SHAKE IT. It's automatic. You can do it over and over. They'll look at you funny, but they can't stop. The same applies to training--never train to tap out--pay attention as you train, don't (overly) injure or kill your partner, but NEVER let your partner determine when a technique is completed. It could cost you dearly.

Socialization by your friends and training partners

Not by some guy that has attacked you and you are trying to severely injure.

[Re4mer]

Just thought I'd point out that a narcotics detective buddy of mine was commenting the other day that he has had several dealers pull weapons on him at close range, but that he has not so far fired his own weapon. Without thinking about it, he's instinctively just jammed the guys up and taken their guns away from them.

No offense, but I have to comment on this story. First of all I have also trained in martial arts for many years myself and I can assure you that if a guy gets the drop on you, with a loaded gun, with a round in the chamber, there is little that can be done if the person is reasonably proficient and willing to pull the trigger. All the ninja skills in the world wont save you because the trigger finger is almost always faster than any full body,arm, or hand movement can be. Its just reality.

The reason why your friend was able to disarm these guys was probably that they either had no clue what they were doing with a gun or they weren't really willing to go all the way and they were just show boating with the gun trying to act tough as drug dealers often do. Had they really wanted to shoot him they just would have done it no questions asked and not just pulled the gun and waited for his ninja move.

I was doing "gun defense" with an MA instructor one time years ago. He said that he could disarm me easily. As he walked over to demonstrate I pulled out the fake demo gun and went bang bang bang! He said "That wasn't fair you didn't let me get ready..."

This not to say that martial arts are no good I just think that these kind of stories are the exception and not the rule.

[MLeake]

The point is to not let the guy get the drop on you, by not letting him get his weapon aimed at you in the first place.

Up close and personal, the idea is to jam the draw. My friend has done exactly that, on multiple occasions. Your analysis is off because it assumes the BG has the drop in the first place - the fact that hasn't happened to my friend isn't a matter of luck, it's a matter of awareness and aggressiveness.

Undercover narcotics officer watches for any indication that BG will draw a weapon of any sort. At first indication, undercover officer closes from arm's length to full contact, and wraps the guy up as brutally and quickly as possible. Muzzle of weapon is directed at BG from moment weapon begins to clear. BG can choose to pull trigger on self, or release weapon. BG sometimes gets arm or wrist broken while figuring this out.

You've trained, you say? Have you ever tried to draw a weapon with a jujitsu guy on top of you? Not across the room, but in the front seat of the car with you. Or on the stool next to yours at the bar?

I'm guessing the "martial arts instructor" you had your training episode with wasn't a cop or an infantryman. When my friend is working a dealer, he doesn't have to get ready, he's mentally already there.

At the schools where I've trained, 1/3 to 1/2 of the students have been police or corrections officers. A high percentage have been active or prior military. Many of the guys have had to defend themselves against blades or clubs, and at least a couple have had to deal with firearms.

Sorry if this is outside your statistical norm. It's not outside for my training circle's. If you want to try your weapon drill with my friend or one of our other instructors some time, drop me a PM and I'll give you directions to the dojo. Bear in mind, though, the scenario would be starting out at close range, with the weapon concealed, and your hand not on it.

[grymster2007]

If you doubt this, walk around to your co-workers, look them in the eye and smile and stick out your right hand. THEY WILL SHAKE IT. It's automatic. You can do it over and over. They'll look at you funny, but they can't stop.

They looked at me funny all right, but no one shook my hand. Maybe that's because I'm so popular?

As for taking someone's gun away, I think that often people with a gun don't expect someone to just take it from them and that makes it much easier to just take it from them. Maybe the fact that they have a gun in their hand gives them some false confidence.

[matolman1]

I have been taking Krav Maga since my time in the IDF in the late 90's and I continue to take and instruct (lower levels) here in TN. Krav Maga is the Israeli Military hand to hand combat. Very much a "to the point" fighting style and not difficult to learn.

I think that unarmed combat is very important and probably more useful than armed combat in the general day to day interactions most civillians and LE come into contact with.