Rules of engagement and shooting distance

Saab1911 · August 29, 2008, 06:51 PM

Do you remember the air war over Vietnam. The U.S. arrived with a lot
of long range missiles and no short range guns. But partly due to rules of
engagement, a lot of the air to air engagements were settled at short range.

Given rules of engagement of Self Defense or Home Defense situations, is
it a surprise that most shootings are at very short range?

So, isn't accuracy at 25 yards pretty much moot with regards to self defense
and home defense? How many rooms in your house are 25 yards wide?
None? I thought so.

So, we can pretty much rule out accuracy at 25 yards as irrelevant to
self defense and home defense. That doesn't mean you can't practice at
that distance to hone your skills, but choosing a weapon that is guaranteed
to group 5 rounds within 1" at 25 yards over another pistol that is guaranteed
to group 5 rounds within 2" at 25 yards even though the more accurate
pistol is four times as expensive and then using the accurate pistol for
home defense or self defense is kind of ridiculous. It's much better to choose
the less accurate pistol and then spend the money you save to buy practice
ammo. Also, getting yourself some training with the savings seems like
much wiser course.

Don't you think that if you shot a perp at 25 yards and the distance from
you and the perp at the time of the shooting is somehow known at your
trial (e.g. surveillance camera) that you'd be in big trouble unless the perp
was shooting at you from that range?

So, what is the maximum useable accuracy for a home defense or self defense
firearm? Again, we're not talking about match pistols or competition pistols.

Cheers,

Jae

Hkmp5sd · August 29, 2008, 06:59 PM

I think the idea is that if you can hit 25 yard COM shots all day long, the 10 to 20 foot shots in your house should be easy. If you CCW, a 25 yard shot isn't that dificult to imagine.

Why would you want to carry a less accurate handgun and limit your options?

If you need cheaper practice, get a .22LR for the range.

Saab1911 · August 29, 2008, 07:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hkmp5sd

If you CCW, a 25 yard shot isn't that dificult to imagine.

Why would you want to carry a less accurate handgun and limit your options?

I don't see a perp yelling at me from across the parking lot to give him all
my money. Usually, the threat is much closer.

Also, some pistols which are uber accurate at 25 yards are not as reliable.
I'd rather have a gun which does not shoot as accurately at 25 yards but
functions flawlessly at close self defense distances which are effectively
dictated by rules of engagement.

It's like the military insisting on rifles with effective range of 1,000 yards
for 50 years. But only snipers effectively engaged their targets at 1,000 yards.
The normal grunt just sprayed and prayed. That's why all armies of the world
have gone to Assault Rifles, and arguably the best assault rifle is AK-47 which
is not accurate at all at 1,000 yards.

Cheers,

Jae

Brian Pfleuger · August 29, 2008, 07:24 PM

I don't think you'd EVER win a SD claim in court if the shot was at 25 yards or even close to that range, unless it was a bonafide gun fight.

I suspect that you would be suspect

if the shot was beyond 30 feet or so in most cases.

Hkmp5sd · August 29, 2008, 07:26 PM

I've got one. It's called a Glock 17 and I've been carrying it for over 20 years now. I can hit center of mass shots at 25 yards and punch out the 10 ring at 25 feet. It goes bang every time I pull the trigger.

Don't train for what you think might happen. Train for what can happen.

Saab1911 · August 29, 2008, 07:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hkmp5sd

I've got one. It's called a Glock 17 and I've been carrying it for over 20 years now. I can hit center of mass shots at 25 yards and punch out the 10 ring at 25 feet. It goes bang every time I pull the trigger.

Don't train for what you think might happen. Train for what can happen.

Yes, today I shot my Glock 17 for the very first time. And, I shot out the
10 ring. It was completely gone. I only shot 50 rounds and the last few
rounds did not hit paper not because I missed but because there was no
paper left to hit in the 10 ring.

Compare that to a Les Baer which costs 4X as much and has a reputation
for being unreliable. Which is more appropriate for self defense and home
defense?

Nobody will ever win a regional or national bullseye match with a Glock.
But a lot of bullseye competitors use Les Baer 1911s.

You see, you were agreeing with me all this time.

Brian Pfleuger · August 29, 2008, 07:40 PM

Quote:

Yes, today I shot my Glock 17 for the very first time. And, I shot out the
10 ring. It was completely gone. I only shot 50 rounds and the last few
rounds did not hit paper not because I missed but because there was no
paper left to hit in the 10 ring.

Um, Jae, your inglockdrination may have gone overboard if you are buying more Glocks but can only afford one target.

Saab1911 · August 29, 2008, 07:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by peetza, no anchovies

Um, Jae, your inglockdrination may have gone overboard if you are buying more Glocks but can only afford one target.

Trust me. I'm not the one you should worry about. PbP is thinking about
hooking and even trying to convince himself that he only really needs just
one kidney.

Brian Pfleuger · August 29, 2008, 07:45 PM

Quote:

PbP is thinking about
hooking and even trying to convince himself...

It's different though, he posts some mighty fine pictures of his obsessions.

Scattergun Bob · August 29, 2008, 08:14 PM

Why do we practice at 25yards?

Because "the fight is never what you THINK it will be. It is gonna be what it's gonna be, the only variable is what YOU are going to do." Thanks Clint

I am often chided for quoting Mean gunfight stats. I do recognize the logic of training and arming for "what you think" will happen. The problem is as long as we are defensive fighters, the OTHER GUY will get to dictate when and where and how far away the gunfight will be.

By the way, I would hope at 25 yards, there are other tools on our "belt" besides shooting. How about maneuver and evade!

Good Luck & Be Safe

Saab1911 · August 29, 2008, 08:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Scatter

Why do we practice at 25yards?

Because "the fight is never what you THINK it will be. It is gonna be what it's gonna be, the only variable is what YOU are going to do." Thanks Clint

Yeah, but if one practices the unlikely situation exclusively, chances are
that one is going to be SOL when an actual self defense situation arises.

I never said that one should never practice at 25 yards or 50 yards. I said
that 25 yard accuracy should not dictate one's choice of firearm or choice
of what to practice.

Scattergun Bob · August 29, 2008, 08:40 PM

agreeded, remember I am suggesting that we do something besides shooting at that range.

The quote is from Clint Smith, I just like it

Good Luck & Be Safe

Borch · August 29, 2008, 08:58 PM

I believe I remember reading somewhere that the vast majority, something like 85%, of police involved shootings happen at distances of 7 to 10 yards, and I really don't see how civilian SD/HD shootings would differ from that statistic. Just think about it.

Is there any BG in the world that's going to declare his intentions from 25 yards? If so he's probably not very good at being a BG.

If the BG does declare bad intentions from 25 yds, or even 15 yds, wouldn't you try to evade and escape before turning to a shooting solution? With a 45 to 75 ft head start I'm fairly certain I could get to my car or to a place of relative safety before the BG, even at 50 lbs over weight as I am.

Is there any place in your home that is 25 yds long? There dam sure ain't in my house.

If you are in an urban setting, can you reliably see what is in a particular person's hands from 75 ft when he's surrounded by other people, non combatant people at that? I know my visual acuity isn't that good and I have 20/20 vision.

I personally think 25 yds is an absolutely ridiculous distance when it comes to any SD/HD shooting situation. I don't even train at distances greater than 15 to 20 yds anymore. When I get out to 20 or more it's usually because one of my buddies is trying to outdo me, and at over 20 yds that's not hard. I also know that even the LEO's in my area have stopped qualifying at 25 yds because it's simply unrealistic. The longest distance they shoot for purposes of qualification is 20 yds. Civilian carry permit holders aren't required to shoot any further than 10 yds in this state, at least we weren't when I got mine. The only time I can see an application for 25 yd handgun shooting is in the military on the open battle field where everyone you may shoot at is an enemy combatant.

Scattergun Bob · August 29, 2008, 09:23 PM

You said "I personally think 25 yds is an absolutely ridiculous distance when it comes to any SD/HD shooting situation."
Unless your enemy dictates, open parking lot, 26 yards, no cover! Then practicing at 25 yrds has some merit.
"the OTHER GUY will get to dictate when and where and how far away the gunfight will be."

You Said "from 25 yds, or even 15 yds, wouldn't you try to evade and escape before turning to a shooting solution?"

Exactly, "By the way, I would hope at 25 yards, there are other tools on our "belt" besides shooting" escape sounds real good!

Good Luck & Be Safe

fm2 · August 29, 2008, 09:43 PM

Saab1911, PM sent.

soccergod04 · August 30, 2008, 12:32 PM

I won't be able to legally carry on campus in NC, but I can foresee a potential 25 yd shot in a large auditorium with an active shooter like VA Tech. The auditoriums are huge.

What about in a theatre? They're big and you can actually carry there. A mall? Yeah, if you're that far away you should probably just leave, but what if your significant other/child/friend are in a changing room while you shop on the other side of the store? Do you just leave them? A 25 yd shot isn't that unthinkable.

Borch · August 30, 2008, 12:46 PM

There's always going to be exceptions and "what if" situations, but the numbers don't lie. The chance of a shooting incident occurring inside the 10 yd range is much, much greater than at 25 yds or more. With all the active shooter cases in the past few years I can see possible 25 yd shots in a mall or a corridor at a school. But with that being said, I would not be taking long shots like that with a bunch of non combatants around. Especially in a high stress situation where you are trading fire with the BG and your fine motor skills are out the window and your capacity to aim precisely is greatly diminshed. In the unlikely possibility that you are in a mall or a school or a theater and there is no one else around that you might possibly accidentally kill or wound and the BG is already shooting at you then, yes, a 25 yd shot may be appropriate.

ringworm · August 30, 2008, 12:49 PM

how big is your house?

NickySantoro · August 30, 2008, 01:03 PM

My 1911 house gun has been "regulated", as in the correct interpretation of "a well regulated militia", to shoot POA/POI at 25 feet. That's pretty much my interior limits. If I had to go outside, I'd bring the 12 gauge and the AR.

ringworm · August 30, 2008, 01:23 PM

im not going outside and im not looking for a reason to shoot someone. as long as my kids are safe you can take the TV the car keys, whatever. Im not ready to put my family through seeing me kill someone over a TV.
You think that your gonna look like some hero?
Do you really want your kids to know what thier dad is capable of.
its like this...
My rambo days are over. I did the USMC and the LEO thing. Im not hiding throwing stars behind picture frames and running out of the bedroom w/ a tricked out AR.
Most criminals are not advanced lockpicks. If one is high tech and stealthy enough to walk past that black crown vic in the driveway, pic the lock and enter my home without alerting the dog and advance on my bedroom door then i want to know why he's breaking in my house instead of the bank.

Hook686 · August 30, 2008, 01:42 PM

It seems to me that some folks put the cart before the horse. Maybe they have a reason for this. I picked my personal defense handgun and I practice at 25 yards. I did not pick the handgun in order to practice at 25 yards, I picked it based upon its size, reliability, caliber and sights. It shoots very nicely at 25 yards, but is no 'Bullseye' handgun.

What is your trip concerning what other folks do ?

Hard Ball · August 30, 2008, 03:27 PM

"So, isn't accuracy at 25 yards pretty much moot with regards to self defense
and home defense? :

Of course it is.

Threefeathers · August 30, 2008, 04:42 PM

I just drilled 250 rounds at 25 meters for several reasons, one, when I shoot the 7, 10, 15 meter targets my groups have gotten much tighter. Next, in my area i may have to nail critter with no legs at that range before it gets my grand kids or even dog. The farther i am from jake no legs the better I like it.

fm2 · August 30, 2008, 07:20 PM

I am pretty sure Tom Given's relays a story of one of his students winning a in gunfight and the distance was about 25 yards.

It's a good idea to practice accuracy at that distance.

BillCA · August 30, 2008, 07:48 PM

Quote:

"So, isn't accuracy at 25 yards pretty much moot with regards to self defense and home defense? :

No, not necessarily.

If you limit "self-defense" strictly to yourself and those within your immediate vicinity (a few steps), the probably.

Where 25 yard shots might be necessary;
- "Defense of another": Where the other person being victimized is on the far side of a barrier you can't climb over - e.g. a chain link fence.

- Where a person outside your home (or another person's home) is preparing to use a Molotov cocktail and it's not even 5pm yet.

- The obvious: You are under fire from someone 25 yards away.

August 29, 2008, 06:51 PM	#1
Saab1911 Senior Member Join Date: July 1, 2008 Location: Los Angeles, Kalifornia Posts: 1,176	Rules of engagement and shooting distance Do you remember the air war over Vietnam. The U.S. arrived with a lot of long range missiles and no short range guns. But partly due to rules of engagement, a lot of the air to air engagements were settled at short range. Given rules of engagement of Self Defense or Home Defense situations, is it a surprise that most shootings are at very short range? So, isn't accuracy at 25 yards pretty much moot with regards to self defense and home defense? How many rooms in your house are 25 yards wide? None? I thought so. So, we can pretty much rule out accuracy at 25 yards as irrelevant to self defense and home defense. That doesn't mean you can't practice at that distance to hone your skills, but choosing a weapon that is guaranteed to group 5 rounds within 1" at 25 yards over another pistol that is guaranteed to group 5 rounds within 2" at 25 yards even though the more accurate pistol is four times as expensive and then using the accurate pistol for home defense or self defense is kind of ridiculous. It's much better to choose the less accurate pistol and then spend the money you save to buy practice ammo. Also, getting yourself some training with the savings seems like much wiser course. Don't you think that if you shot a perp at 25 yards and the distance from you and the perp at the time of the shooting is somehow known at your trial (e.g. surveillance camera) that you'd be in big trouble unless the perp was shooting at you from that range? So, what is the maximum useable accuracy for a home defense or self defense firearm? Again, we're not talking about match pistols or competition pistols. Cheers, Jae __________________ 45 ACP: Springfield Armory Loaded 1911 5" barrel 357 magnum: Smith & Wesson 686 6" barrel 9x19: CZ 75B, Glock 17 22lr: Ruger Mk III/45

August 29, 2008, 07:24 PM	#4
Brian Pfleuger Moderator Emeritus Join Date: June 25, 2008 Location: Austin, CO Posts: 19,578	I don't think you'd EVER win a SD claim in court if the shot was at 25 yards or even close to that range, unless it was a bonafide gun fight. I suspect that you would be suspect if the shot was beyond 30 feet or so in most cases. __________________ Nobody plans to screw up their lives... ...they just don't plan not to. -Andy Stanley

August 29, 2008, 08:14 PM	#10
Scattergun Bob Senior Member Join Date: February 29, 2008 Location: Nine Mile Falls, Washington Posts: 1,186	Saab1911 Why do we practice at 25yards? Because "the fight is never what you THINK it will be. It is gonna be what it's gonna be, the only variable is what YOU are going to do." Thanks Clint I am often chided for quoting Mean gunfight stats. I do recognize the logic of training and arming for "what you think" will happen. The problem is as long as we are defensive fighters, the OTHER GUY will get to dictate when and where and how far away the gunfight will be. By the way, I would hope at 25 yards, there are other tools on our "belt" besides shooting. How about maneuver and evade! Good Luck & Be Safe __________________ First, with the most, WINS! Regards, Scattergun Bob

August 29, 2008, 08:40 PM	#12
Scattergun Bob Senior Member Join Date: February 29, 2008 Location: Nine Mile Falls, Washington Posts: 1,186	Saab1911 agreeded, remember I am suggesting that we do something besides shooting at that range. The quote is from Clint Smith, I just like it Good Luck & Be Safe __________________ First, with the most, WINS! Regards, Scattergun Bob

August 29, 2008, 09:23 PM	#14
Scattergun Bob Senior Member Join Date: February 29, 2008 Location: Nine Mile Falls, Washington Posts: 1,186	Borch You said "I personally think 25 yds is an absolutely ridiculous distance when it comes to any SD/HD shooting situation." Unless your enemy dictates, open parking lot, 26 yards, no cover! Then practicing at 25 yrds has some merit. "the OTHER GUY will get to dictate when and where and how far away the gunfight will be." You Said "from 25 yds, or even 15 yds, wouldn't you try to evade and escape before turning to a shooting solution?" Exactly, "By the way, I would hope at 25 yards, there are other tools on our "belt" besides shooting" escape sounds real good! Good Luck & Be Safe __________________ First, with the most, WINS! Regards, Scattergun Bob

August 29, 2008, 06:59 PM	#2
Hkmp5sd Senior Member Join Date: December 15, 2001 Location: Winter Haven, Florida Posts: 4,303	I think the idea is that if you can hit 25 yard COM shots all day long, the 10 to 20 foot shots in your house should be easy. If you CCW, a 25 yard shot isn't that dificult to imagine. Why would you want to carry a less accurate handgun and limit your options? If you need cheaper practice, get a .22LR for the range.

August 29, 2008, 07:26 PM	#5
Hkmp5sd Senior Member Join Date: December 15, 2001 Location: Winter Haven, Florida Posts: 4,303	I've got one. It's called a Glock 17 and I've been carrying it for over 20 years now. I can hit center of mass shots at 25 yards and punch out the 10 ring at 25 feet. It goes bang every time I pull the trigger. Don't train for what you think might happen. Train for what can happen.

August 29, 2008, 08:58 PM	#13
Borch Senior Member Join Date: July 28, 2008 Location: Minnesota Posts: 202	I believe I remember reading somewhere that the vast majority, something like 85%, of police involved shootings happen at distances of 7 to 10 yards, and I really don't see how civilian SD/HD shootings would differ from that statistic. Just think about it. Is there any BG in the world that's going to declare his intentions from 25 yards? If so he's probably not very good at being a BG. If the BG does declare bad intentions from 25 yds, or even 15 yds, wouldn't you try to evade and escape before turning to a shooting solution? With a 45 to 75 ft head start I'm fairly certain I could get to my car or to a place of relative safety before the BG, even at 50 lbs over weight as I am. Is there any place in your home that is 25 yds long? There dam sure ain't in my house. If you are in an urban setting, can you reliably see what is in a particular person's hands from 75 ft when he's surrounded by other people, non combatant people at that? I know my visual acuity isn't that good and I have 20/20 vision. I personally think 25 yds is an absolutely ridiculous distance when it comes to any SD/HD shooting situation. I don't even train at distances greater than 15 to 20 yds anymore. When I get out to 20 or more it's usually because one of my buddies is trying to outdo me, and at over 20 yds that's not hard. I also know that even the LEO's in my area have stopped qualifying at 25 yds because it's simply unrealistic. The longest distance they shoot for purposes of qualification is 20 yds. Civilian carry permit holders aren't required to shoot any further than 10 yds in this state, at least we weren't when I got mine. The only time I can see an application for 25 yd handgun shooting is in the military on the open battle field where everyone you may shoot at is an enemy combatant.

August 29, 2008, 09:43 PM	#15
fm2 Member Join Date: September 25, 2006 Location: Texas Posts: 47	Saab1911, PM sent.

August 30, 2008, 12:32 PM	#16
soccergod04 Junior Member Join Date: May 9, 2008 Location: NC Posts: 12	I won't be able to legally carry on campus in NC, but I can foresee a potential 25 yd shot in a large auditorium with an active shooter like VA Tech. The auditoriums are huge. What about in a theatre? They're big and you can actually carry there. A mall? Yeah, if you're that far away you should probably just leave, but what if your significant other/child/friend are in a changing room while you shop on the other side of the store? Do you just leave them? A 25 yd shot isn't that unthinkable.

August 30, 2008, 12:46 PM	#17
Borch Senior Member Join Date: July 28, 2008 Location: Minnesota Posts: 202	There's always going to be exceptions and "what if" situations, but the numbers don't lie. The chance of a shooting incident occurring inside the 10 yd range is much, much greater than at 25 yds or more. With all the active shooter cases in the past few years I can see possible 25 yd shots in a mall or a corridor at a school. But with that being said, I would not be taking long shots like that with a bunch of non combatants around. Especially in a high stress situation where you are trading fire with the BG and your fine motor skills are out the window and your capacity to aim precisely is greatly diminshed. In the unlikely possibility that you are in a mall or a school or a theater and there is no one else around that you might possibly accidentally kill or wound and the BG is already shooting at you then, yes, a 25 yd shot may be appropriate.

August 30, 2008, 12:49 PM	#18
ringworm Senior Member Join Date: August 25, 2008 Posts: 257	how big is your house? __________________ "Strange as it seems, no amount of learning can cure stupidity, and higher education positively fortifies it." Stephen Vizinczey

August 30, 2008, 01:03 PM	#19
NickySantoro Junior member Join Date: July 14, 2008 Posts: 217	My 1911 house gun has been "regulated", as in the correct interpretation of "a well regulated militia", to shoot POA/POI at 25 feet. That's pretty much my interior limits. If I had to go outside, I'd bring the 12 gauge and the AR.

August 30, 2008, 01:23 PM	#20
ringworm Senior Member Join Date: August 25, 2008 Posts: 257	im not going outside and im not looking for a reason to shoot someone. as long as my kids are safe you can take the TV the car keys, whatever. Im not ready to put my family through seeing me kill someone over a TV. You think that your gonna look like some hero? Do you really want your kids to know what thier dad is capable of. its like this... My rambo days are over. I did the USMC and the LEO thing. Im not hiding throwing stars behind picture frames and running out of the bedroom w/ a tricked out AR. Most criminals are not advanced lockpicks. If one is high tech and stealthy enough to walk past that black crown vic in the driveway, pic the lock and enter my home without alerting the dog and advance on my bedroom door then i want to know why he's breaking in my house instead of the bank. __________________ "Strange as it seems, no amount of learning can cure stupidity, and higher education positively fortifies it." Stephen Vizinczey

August 30, 2008, 01:42 PM	#21
Hook686 Senior Member Join Date: May 22, 2005 Location: USA The Great State of California Posts: 2,090	It seems to me that some folks put the cart before the horse. Maybe they have a reason for this. I picked my personal defense handgun and I practice at 25 yards. I did not pick the handgun in order to practice at 25 yards, I picked it based upon its size, reliability, caliber and sights. It shoots very nicely at 25 yards, but is no 'Bullseye' handgun. What is your trip concerning what other folks do ? __________________ Hook686 When the number of people in institutions reaches 51%, we change sides.

August 30, 2008, 03:27 PM	#22
Hard Ball Senior Member Join Date: November 28, 1999 Location: California Posts: 3,925	"So, isn't accuracy at 25 yards pretty much moot with regards to self defense and home defense? : Of course it is. __________________ "I swear to defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemeis domestic or foreign WHOMSOEVER."

August 30, 2008, 04:42 PM	#23
Threefeathers Junior member Join Date: June 7, 2004 Location: AZ Posts: 392	I just drilled 250 rounds at 25 meters for several reasons, one, when I shoot the 7, 10, 15 meter targets my groups have gotten much tighter. Next, in my area i may have to nail critter with no legs at that range before it gets my grand kids or even dog. The farther i am from jake no legs the better I like it.

August 30, 2008, 07:20 PM	#24
fm2 Member Join Date: September 25, 2006 Location: Texas Posts: 47	I am pretty sure Tom Given's relays a story of one of his students winning a in gunfight and the distance was about 25 yards. It's a good idea to practice accuracy at that distance.