Real '58's and gain twist rifling

ZVP · March 30, 2014, 01:18 AM

WHile shooting my Piettia '58 at my Club, I met a guy who had a couple real Remmies and we had a long talk about the barrels.
He told me that shooting a plain lead ball, the origonals shot extremelly accurately! Said the Conicals didn't do so well with the Gain Twist Rifling!
His powder charges were 35 gr of Black Powder with the balls.
He didn't experience much trouble with BP fouling if he used a Crisco soaked patch he said.
It's good to hear the stories of the 'real' thing and wonder what it was like...
I'm happy with my replicas, they don't jam with caps like colt copies do, and if I use lubed patches also, I don't getmuch fouling either!
BTW, both my '58 replicas (long and short bbls) like the round ball best and also like 35gr charges of Pyrodex (BP is hard to get here in Calif!).
BPDave

spacecoast · March 30, 2014, 06:49 AM

I shot my original Remington (1864) last weekend for the first time (with round balls) and thought it was pretty darn accurate without even really trying to shoot for accuracy. 7 shots total - 1 to make sure everything was OK and then a full cylinder. I used the Pyrodex equivalent of 22-23 grains of powder and .454" balls.

g.willikers · March 30, 2014, 10:52 AM

The solution for fouling is just use Triple Seven powder.
Works as well as anything and no bad smells either.
The non-BP folks at the range will appreciate it, too.
The best accuracy for my replica Remington seems to be round ball and 25 grains, too.

wogpotter · March 30, 2014, 11:46 AM

A few thoughts.

Hopefully he meant "wad" instead of "patch" as patches are used for single shot muzzle loaders, not C&B revolvers. A "patch" could lead to problems in a revolver because of the ability for them to open jumping the gap, creating a bore obstruction problem. I have no idea how you'd "shave a ring" from a patched RB, or even work out the ball diameter needed to work properly when patched.

With my replica .44 cal 1858 "New Army" I get the best accuracy with 28 Gr of FFg, a .454" RB & a lubed wad under the ball.

I tried conicals & they weren't as accurate. I've used both real "Holy Black" & several substitutes & have found the best answer to reducing binding due to fouling is to use grease instead of any oil on the center pin as it seems to block fouling from entering & binding up the action.

ZVP · March 30, 2014, 03:21 PM

Very sorry, I ment a Lubed wad.
You owners of "the real Mc Coy" are so lucky to have found them1 Maybe they found you?
My powder loads were worked up from 20 gr of Pyrodex to the aforementioned 35 gr charge. I came up in 5 gr incriments with a lot of shooting to establish my mark. I too tried 777 but was warned of it's sharp,powerful detonation and was advised not to use it in revolvers. ** You must use a calculated reduced charge of 777 compared to real BP or Pyrodex! Pyrodex works fine in all my replica revolvers.
I thought about removing a nipple and pushing a seated (no charge) ball from the cylinder just to mic the diameter but never did. I just used calipers and measured the cylinders for my own information.
My '58s are a 8" and a 5 1/2" bbl models. Each requires a different loading procedure. Both like 35 Gr of powder, the 5 1/2" likes the ball close to the forcing cone so I use COW as a filler to bring the ball fwd. followed by a lubed wad and then the ball. The 8" just likes powder a wad and the ball seated deep. each gets it's best accuracy this way.
I shot the 8" @ 25yards loaded as such and the balls struck low about 8" and left about 6". thee group was a miserable 9-10" spread, but I did get a feel for longer range shooting with it. I prefer the groups I can shoot @ 7 yds! Just for laughs, I shot my Model 10 S&W .38, single action at the same range and kept all 6 in the black. Needless to say I need to work more with my BP revolvers!
Between the two 58's I prefe the 5 1/2" because it handles better and I have always been a short barrel fan. The 8" due to the longer sight raduis seems more accurate.
I am fascinated with BP revolvers and shoot as often as I can. They are my second favorite shooting hobby,first is Adult spring air rifles. The Remington design is my favorite and by far the most trouble free shooters.
ZVP

wogpotter · March 30, 2014, 03:56 PM

No problem, I only own a repro, but the smell is the same!

March 30, 2014, 01:18 AM	#1
ZVP Senior Member Join Date: June 20, 2009 Posts: 1,102	Real '58's and gain twist rifling WHile shooting my Piettia '58 at my Club, I met a guy who had a couple real Remmies and we had a long talk about the barrels. He told me that shooting a plain lead ball, the origonals shot extremelly accurately! Said the Conicals didn't do so well with the Gain Twist Rifling! His powder charges were 35 gr of Black Powder with the balls. He didn't experience much trouble with BP fouling if he used a Crisco soaked patch he said. It's good to hear the stories of the 'real' thing and wonder what it was like... I'm happy with my replicas, they don't jam with caps like colt copies do, and if I use lubed patches also, I don't getmuch fouling either! BTW, both my '58 replicas (long and short bbls) like the round ball best and also like 35gr charges of Pyrodex (BP is hard to get here in Calif!). BPDave

March 30, 2014, 10:52 AM	#3
g.willikers Senior Member Join Date: September 28, 2008 Posts: 10,442	The solution for fouling is just use Triple Seven powder. Works as well as anything and no bad smells either. The non-BP folks at the range will appreciate it, too. The best accuracy for my replica Remington seems to be round ball and 25 grains, too. __________________ Walt Kelly, alias Pogo, sez: “Don't take life so serious, son, it ain't nohow permanent.”

March 30, 2014, 11:46 AM	#4
wogpotter Senior Member Join Date: September 27, 2004 Posts: 4,811	A few thoughts. Hopefully he meant "wad" instead of "patch" as patches are used for single shot muzzle loaders, not C&B revolvers. A "patch" could lead to problems in a revolver because of the ability for them to open jumping the gap, creating a bore obstruction problem. I have no idea how you'd "shave a ring" from a patched RB, or even work out the ball diameter needed to work properly when patched. With my replica .44 cal 1858 "New Army" I get the best accuracy with 28 Gr of FFg, a .454" RB & a lubed wad under the ball. I tried conicals & they weren't as accurate. I've used both real "Holy Black" & several substitutes & have found the best answer to reducing binding due to fouling is to use grease instead of any oil on the center pin as it seems to block fouling from entering & binding up the action. __________________ Allan Quatermain: “Automatic rifles. Who in God's name has automatic rifles”? Elderly Hunter: “That's dashed unsporting. Probably Belgium.”

March 30, 2014, 03:56 PM	#6
wogpotter Senior Member Join Date: September 27, 2004 Posts: 4,811	No problem, I only own a repro, but the smell is the same! __________________ Allan Quatermain: “Automatic rifles. Who in God's name has automatic rifles”? Elderly Hunter: “That's dashed unsporting. Probably Belgium.”

March 30, 2014, 06:49 AM	#2
spacecoast Senior Member Join Date: October 14, 2009 Location: Sunshine and Keystone States Posts: 4,461	I shot my original Remington (1864) last weekend for the first time (with round balls) and thought it was pretty darn accurate without even really trying to shoot for accuracy. 7 shots total - 1 to make sure everything was OK and then a full cylinder. I used the Pyrodex equivalent of 22-23 grains of powder and .454" balls.

March 30, 2014, 03:21 PM	#5
ZVP Senior Member Join Date: June 20, 2009 Posts: 1,102	Very sorry, I ment a Lubed wad. You owners of "the real Mc Coy" are so lucky to have found them1 Maybe they found you? My powder loads were worked up from 20 gr of Pyrodex to the aforementioned 35 gr charge. I came up in 5 gr incriments with a lot of shooting to establish my mark. I too tried 777 but was warned of it's sharp,powerful detonation and was advised not to use it in revolvers. ** You must use a calculated reduced charge of 777 compared to real BP or Pyrodex! Pyrodex works fine in all my replica revolvers. I thought about removing a nipple and pushing a seated (no charge) ball from the cylinder just to mic the diameter but never did. I just used calipers and measured the cylinders for my own information. My '58s are a 8" and a 5 1/2" bbl models. Each requires a different loading procedure. Both like 35 Gr of powder, the 5 1/2" likes the ball close to the forcing cone so I use COW as a filler to bring the ball fwd. followed by a lubed wad and then the ball. The 8" just likes powder a wad and the ball seated deep. each gets it's best accuracy this way. I shot the 8" @ 25yards loaded as such and the balls struck low about 8" and left about 6". thee group was a miserable 9-10" spread, but I did get a feel for longer range shooting with it. I prefer the groups I can shoot @ 7 yds! Just for laughs, I shot my Model 10 S&W .38, single action at the same range and kept all 6 in the black. Needless to say I need to work more with my BP revolvers! Between the two 58's I prefe the 5 1/2" because it handles better and I have always been a short barrel fan. The 8" due to the longer sight raduis seems more accurate. I am fascinated with BP revolvers and shoot as often as I can. They are my second favorite shooting hobby,first is Adult spring air rifles. The Remington design is my favorite and by far the most trouble free shooters. ZVP