A bit of an ethics question.

Rotorhead · August 28, 2002, 04:33 PM

Lots of sage advice given around these parts, hopefully I can gain a little without offending. What are your thoughts on early scouting of game from aircraft. We occasionally take some guides looking for big animals and the out of state hunter who has heavily invested in their trip. Any problems? State law here says this can't be done the same day or day prior to actually hunting.

What about GPS Lat Lon? I have a brother who is always coming up with, how do I say it, creative income ideas. (get rich quick deals) That thinks hunters would pay to get a digital photo with lat lon of animals in their game unit, before they even leave their home state.

Please give me some feedback, flame if you must I'm a big boy.

Thanks,

Larry Ashcraft · August 28, 2002, 05:51 PM

My dad and his hunting buddy scouted by airplane in the 60's. I don't see anything wrong with it. They only did it once though, I think because of the cost and the limited results. Of course, for an out-of-state hunter, it wouldn't be that much of an added cost.

Art Eatman · August 28, 2002, 06:20 PM

Off the cuff, I don't have a problem with the idea of providing the lat/long. The hunter is saved a bunch of time rousting around areas where the animals aren't "at home" to visitors, but he still has to hunt and find. After all, the lat/long is merely where they WERE, and is only the center-point of an area.

I think ethics comes into play by not "flooding a zone" with a whole bunch of hunters.

It's one thing for a party of two or three hunters to get within a mile or three of where game were seen. It's something else to have 30 or 50 to go pouring through the woods...

Art

labgrade · August 28, 2002, 06:51 PM

I don't see a problem with it either. Here today, gone tomorrow - elk move around quite a bit, .... depending on weather & mood.

Hunting pressure usually gets the critters moving anyway.

C.R.Sam · August 28, 2002, 07:00 PM

Aerial recon...
Tough to do.
Tough to do safely.
Tough to do without spookin game.
And if observed spookin, very expensive an tough on your freedom.

And, unless doin it on a daily basis to establish patterns; worthless.

Sam

HSMITH · August 28, 2002, 07:30 PM

I expect your brother is native to the hunting area or has lived there a long time. One thing he is not taking into account is that most of the flatlanders that come out west to hunt are serious hunters. The hunt longer and harder than 99% of residents and their success shows. I would venture a guess that VERY few flatlanders would bite on this hook.

A side note:

A similar approach is used on some of the indian reservations in northern NM. It differs as the pilot will radio the guide into the animal. If the guide is too far away the pilot will harass the animals until they hole up. Another technique is to take the guide and client up for the spotting. When an animal is selected it is buzzed and harrassed. If buzzed continually an elk will hole up under a large tree or in some heavy cover, and still be there several hours later when the guide and "hunter" return. This is not a sporting endeavor IMO.

This ^^^^^ is NOT speculation or hearsay BTW.

labgrade · August 28, 2002, 08:13 PM

I dunno 'bout that (non-res hunting harder), HSmith. Can't say I'm too pleased with some of our res hunters, but we get our share of non-res that are pretty funky.

H&H,hunter · August 28, 2002, 10:25 PM

Having been there and done that I can tell you that Aerial spotting is highly overrated. On Elk it doesn't work real well becuase they move around to much. And unless you've got your stuff wired tight it can be real dangerous.

DadOfThree · August 29, 2002, 05:46 AM

I don't have a problem with the ethics. I just doubt that it will be real effective. OTOH, that doesn't mean your brother couldn't make some money selling the photos to prospective hunters. If you don't believe me, take your favorite hunting supply catalog and thumb through it. How many goofy contraptions do they sell in there every year? Would you consider buying them? Probably not but someone is buying them

.

Rotorhead · August 29, 2002, 09:08 AM

Thank you folks, FWIW you guys are pretty much spot on from what I have seen. Elk move ALOT especially during the rifle seasons when we have high pressure around here. I think it is nice to know where the big guys are (or are not) if thats what your after though. Same goes for animals like big horn.

As to the Indian reservation stuff I couldn't say, most of the things I hear of what happens on reservations seems a little off to me. Some probably true, some probably stretched a bit.

The animals here don't seem to spook too bad, lots of them don't even move. Flew by a small pond the other morning with 4 nice bulls standing on the edge with reflections on the water. What I wouldn't have given for a camera! Any way I made a couple of passes and they just watched me go by. Almost a religious experience in my book. I'll never forget it.

As for the danger I guess we all choose our poison, personally I think there is as much media bias with aviation as there is with firearms. 50000 +- killed a year in cars and its no big deal. One aircraft goes down and its front page. I'm also lucky enough to have a father with over 25000 hrs flying here in the mountains to learn from.

Anyway thanks for your perspective folks. Hunt safe

Southla1 · August 29, 2002, 12:01 PM

When I was flying I would "scout" which ponds/areas etc. the ducks were in the day before the season opened. If they were in the marshes and you went to the basin you were 15 miles away from them and vice versa.

dZ · August 29, 2002, 02:42 PM

now what about GPS tagging the animals?

ReadyOnTheRight · September 4, 2002, 09:31 PM

Quote:

A similar approach is used on some of the indian reservations in northern NM. It differs as the pilot will radio the guide into the animal. If the guide is too far away the pilot will harass the animals until they hole up. Another technique is to take the guide and client up for the spotting. When an animal is selected it is buzzed and harrassed. If buzzed continually an elk will hole up under a large tree or in some heavy cover, and still be there several hours later when the guide and "hunter" return. This is not a sporting endeavor IMO.

I agree. This kind of thing might be OK if the hunter is hungry and feeding his family, but I don't really think there is a lot of hunger these days in the US. Anyway, if they can afford an airplane, they're probably not too hungry.

As far as the arial spotting goes, I guess it's OK if it's legal before the season, but I'd rather not have someone buzzing me when I'm out doing some pre-season exploring. So I agree with many here -- it depends on how crowded the area is.

I do love a new business idea.

Mannlicher · September 5, 2002, 08:29 PM

Scouting from a plane, or using GPS, or anything else, does not present an ethics problem. Hunting from a plane does.

swampgator · September 5, 2002, 09:33 PM

Mannlicher,

How does Harry's helicopter hog shoot fit into that theory.

Art Eatman · September 6, 2002, 07:55 PM

"Hunting" by air ain't the same as varmint control or predator control by air.

In some parts of Texas, there oughta be a bounty on feral hogs. They're about as useful to ranchers and farmers as 400-lb rats.

Art

swampgator · September 6, 2002, 08:38 PM

Art,

Just pulling my buddies chain about another friend of ours. The actual "hunt" in question was on a large corporate farm in South Florida, with the hogs being used for a charity cook out.

Mannlicher · September 11, 2002, 07:53 PM

SwampGator asks:"Mannlicher,

How does Harry's helicopter hog shoot fit into that theory.?"

Now as we all know, meat, or subsistance hunting does not have to be ethical. lol

lilbiggun · September 11, 2002, 09:07 PM

I dont see anything wrong at all with aerial scouting. It is very popular up here, I cant afford it but if I could I would do it. As for the law, up here you can not hunt till 3AM the morning after you fly.

Rotorhead · September 12, 2002, 12:56 PM

Hey Lilbiggun,

How much is expensive if you don't mind me asking? I have some friends who were just stationed in AK. I may finally have the chance for a visit. Keeping my fingers crossed.

Thanks

Mr.Wingshooter · September 12, 2002, 01:37 PM

I do not see any problems with it on a game preserve. Since your paying to hunt. People ride around in vehiles scouting, the airplane is a vehicle as well.

lilbiggun · September 12, 2002, 07:02 PM

Rotorhead,
you can plan on anywhere from 3-500/hour depending of course on the airplane. Naturally a cub would be the cheapest if you want to scout solo (plus the pilot)

The cheapest I found was 150/hour but I had a gut feeling that I shouldnt fly with him. Something about him turned me off.

106RR · September 14, 2002, 06:34 PM

I believe that some people are already selling Lat Lon info on elk. Ethics are a problem with the increasing technology available. We are almost into the era where an exploding radio collar is a possibility. I think it would be unethical. You could sell the radio code to the highest bidder and let er rip.

There is a greater problem in buying up most of the elk hunting rights and jacking up the cost. Much of central Idaho was treated this way. There are ethics for outfitters as well.

August 28, 2002, 04:33 PM	#1
Rotorhead Member Join Date: November 2, 1999 Location: W. Co. Posts: 38	A bit of an ethics question. Lots of sage advice given around these parts, hopefully I can gain a little without offending. What are your thoughts on early scouting of game from aircraft. We occasionally take some guides looking for big animals and the out of state hunter who has heavily invested in their trip. Any problems? State law here says this can't be done the same day or day prior to actually hunting. What about GPS Lat Lon? I have a brother who is always coming up with, how do I say it, creative income ideas. (get rich quick deals) That thinks hunters would pay to get a digital photo with lat lon of animals in their game unit, before they even leave their home state. Please give me some feedback, flame if you must I'm a big boy. Thanks,

August 28, 2002, 05:51 PM	#2
Larry Ashcraft Senior Member Join Date: February 22, 2001 Location: Pueblo, CO, Home of Heroes Posts: 251	My dad and his hunting buddy scouted by airplane in the 60's. I don't see anything wrong with it. They only did it once though, I think because of the cost and the limited results. Of course, for an out-of-state hunter, it wouldn't be that much of an added cost. __________________ Larry Ashcraft, formerly TrophyShop

August 28, 2002, 10:25 PM	#8
H&H,hunter Senior Member Join Date: July 25, 2001 Location: Colorado Posts: 504	Having been there and done that I can tell you that Aerial spotting is highly overrated. On Elk it doesn't work real well becuase they move around to much. And unless you've got your stuff wired tight it can be real dangerous. __________________ Velocity is thrilling, But diameter does the real killing.

August 29, 2002, 05:46 AM	#9
DadOfThree Senior Member Join Date: December 27, 2001 Location: Upland, indiana Posts: 409	I don't have a problem with the ethics. I just doubt that it will be real effective. OTOH, that doesn't mean your brother couldn't make some money selling the photos to prospective hunters. If you don't believe me, take your favorite hunting supply catalog and thumb through it. How many goofy contraptions do they sell in there every year? Would you consider buying them? Probably not but someone is buying them . __________________ Christian, American, Heterosexual, Pro-gun Conservative. Any Questions? James Madison: The Constitution preserves "the advantage of being armed which Americans possess over the people of almost every other nation...(where) the governments are afraid to trust the people with arms. Mark Douglass

August 29, 2002, 02:42 PM	#12
dZ Senior Member Join Date: May 31, 1999 Location: Exiled, Fetid Swamp, DC Posts: 7,548	now what about GPS tagging the animals? __________________ "O tell the Lacedomecians to damn the torpedoes." BOTR, Chapter V: Some Monsters

August 28, 2002, 06:20 PM	#3
Art Eatman Staff in Memoriam Join Date: November 13, 1998 Location: Terlingua, TX; Thomasville, GA Posts: 24,798	Off the cuff, I don't have a problem with the idea of providing the lat/long. The hunter is saved a bunch of time rousting around areas where the animals aren't "at home" to visitors, but he still has to hunt and find. After all, the lat/long is merely where they WERE, and is only the center-point of an area. I think ethics comes into play by not "flooding a zone" with a whole bunch of hunters. It's one thing for a party of two or three hunters to get within a mile or three of where game were seen. It's something else to have 30 or 50 to go pouring through the woods... Art

August 28, 2002, 06:51 PM	#4
labgrade Member In Memoriam Join Date: November 29, 1999 Location: west of a small town, CO Posts: 4,346	I don't see a problem with it either. Here today, gone tomorrow - elk move around quite a bit, .... depending on weather & mood. Hunting pressure usually gets the critters moving anyway.

August 28, 2002, 07:00 PM	#5
C.R.Sam Senior Member Join Date: October 29, 1999 Location: Dewey, AZ Posts: 12,858	Aerial recon... Tough to do. Tough to do safely. Tough to do without spookin game. And if observed spookin, very expensive an tough on your freedom. And, unless doin it on a daily basis to establish patterns; worthless. Sam

August 28, 2002, 07:30 PM	#6
HSMITH Senior Member Join Date: June 21, 2002 Posts: 2,019	I expect your brother is native to the hunting area or has lived there a long time. One thing he is not taking into account is that most of the flatlanders that come out west to hunt are serious hunters. The hunt longer and harder than 99% of residents and their success shows. I would venture a guess that VERY few flatlanders would bite on this hook. A side note: A similar approach is used on some of the indian reservations in northern NM. It differs as the pilot will radio the guide into the animal. If the guide is too far away the pilot will harass the animals until they hole up. Another technique is to take the guide and client up for the spotting. When an animal is selected it is buzzed and harrassed. If buzzed continually an elk will hole up under a large tree or in some heavy cover, and still be there several hours later when the guide and "hunter" return. This is not a sporting endeavor IMO. This ^^^^^ is NOT speculation or hearsay BTW.

August 28, 2002, 08:13 PM	#7
labgrade Member In Memoriam Join Date: November 29, 1999 Location: west of a small town, CO Posts: 4,346	I dunno 'bout that (non-res hunting harder), HSmith. Can't say I'm too pleased with some of our res hunters, but we get our share of non-res that are pretty funky.

August 29, 2002, 09:08 AM	#10
Rotorhead Member Join Date: November 2, 1999 Location: W. Co. Posts: 38	Thank you folks, FWIW you guys are pretty much spot on from what I have seen. Elk move ALOT especially during the rifle seasons when we have high pressure around here. I think it is nice to know where the big guys are (or are not) if thats what your after though. Same goes for animals like big horn. As to the Indian reservation stuff I couldn't say, most of the things I hear of what happens on reservations seems a little off to me. Some probably true, some probably stretched a bit. The animals here don't seem to spook too bad, lots of them don't even move. Flew by a small pond the other morning with 4 nice bulls standing on the edge with reflections on the water. What I wouldn't have given for a camera! Any way I made a couple of passes and they just watched me go by. Almost a religious experience in my book. I'll never forget it. As for the danger I guess we all choose our poison, personally I think there is as much media bias with aviation as there is with firearms. 50000 +- killed a year in cars and its no big deal. One aircraft goes down and its front page. I'm also lucky enough to have a father with over 25000 hrs flying here in the mountains to learn from. Anyway thanks for your perspective folks. Hunt safe

August 29, 2002, 12:01 PM	#11
Southla1 Member In Memoriam Join Date: March 19, 2000 Location: Jeanerette, La. Near the Posts: 1,999	When I was flying I would "scout" which ponds/areas etc. the ducks were in the day before the season opened. If they were in the marshes and you went to the basin you were 15 miles away from them and vice versa.

September 5, 2002, 08:29 PM	#14
Mannlicher Senior Member Join Date: July 8, 2001 Location: North Central Florida & Miami Posts: 3,209	Scouting from a plane, or using GPS, or anything else, does not present an ethics problem. Hunting from a plane does. __________________ Nemo Me Impune Lacesset "The trouble with our liberal friends is not that they're ignorant; it's just that they know so much that isn't so.".........Ronald Reagan

September 5, 2002, 09:33 PM	#15
swampgator Senior Member Join Date: October 14, 1999 Location: Gatorville, Florida Posts: 619	Mannlicher, How does Harry's helicopter hog shoot fit into that theory. __________________ www.afn.org/~guns

September 6, 2002, 07:55 PM	#16
Art Eatman Staff in Memoriam Join Date: November 13, 1998 Location: Terlingua, TX; Thomasville, GA Posts: 24,798	"Hunting" by air ain't the same as varmint control or predator control by air. In some parts of Texas, there oughta be a bounty on feral hogs. They're about as useful to ranchers and farmers as 400-lb rats. Art

September 6, 2002, 08:38 PM	#17
swampgator Senior Member Join Date: October 14, 1999 Location: Gatorville, Florida Posts: 619	Art, Just pulling my buddies chain about another friend of ours. The actual "hunt" in question was on a large corporate farm in South Florida, with the hogs being used for a charity cook out. __________________ www.afn.org/~guns

September 11, 2002, 07:53 PM	#18
Mannlicher Senior Member Join Date: July 8, 2001 Location: North Central Florida & Miami Posts: 3,209	SwampGator asks:"Mannlicher, How does Harry's helicopter hog shoot fit into that theory.?" Now as we all know, meat, or subsistance hunting does not have to be ethical. lol __________________ Nemo Me Impune Lacesset "The trouble with our liberal friends is not that they're ignorant; it's just that they know so much that isn't so.".........Ronald Reagan

September 11, 2002, 09:07 PM	#19
lilbiggun Member Join Date: November 16, 2001 Location: los anchorage, alaska Posts: 61	I dont see anything wrong at all with aerial scouting. It is very popular up here, I cant afford it but if I could I would do it. As for the law, up here you can not hunt till 3AM the morning after you fly.

September 12, 2002, 12:56 PM	#20
Rotorhead Member Join Date: November 2, 1999 Location: W. Co. Posts: 38	Hey Lilbiggun, How much is expensive if you don't mind me asking? I have some friends who were just stationed in AK. I may finally have the chance for a visit. Keeping my fingers crossed. Thanks

September 12, 2002, 01:37 PM	#21
Mr.Wingshooter Junior member Join Date: April 23, 2002 Location: Arkeysaw Posts: 171	Scout plane I do not see any problems with it on a game preserve. Since your paying to hunt. People ride around in vehiles scouting, the airplane is a vehicle as well.

September 12, 2002, 07:02 PM	#22
lilbiggun Member Join Date: November 16, 2001 Location: los anchorage, alaska Posts: 61	Rotorhead, you can plan on anywhere from 3-500/hour depending of course on the airplane. Naturally a cub would be the cheapest if you want to scout solo (plus the pilot) The cheapest I found was 150/hour but I had a gut feeling that I shouldnt fly with him. Something about him turned me off.

September 14, 2002, 06:34 PM	#23
106RR Senior Member Join Date: July 10, 2002 Posts: 234	I believe that some people are already selling Lat Lon info on elk. Ethics are a problem with the increasing technology available. We are almost into the era where an exploding radio collar is a possibility. I think it would be unethical. You could sell the radio code to the highest bidder and let er rip. There is a greater problem in buying up most of the elk hunting rights and jacking up the cost. Much of central Idaho was treated this way. There are ethics for outfitters as well.