pursuing robbery suspects

[wayneinFL]

From:http://www.palmbeachpost.com/local_n...cxntlid=inform

Bullet from wild car chase imbeds in child's room

By Kevin Deutsch

Tuesday, December 04, 2007

One of the bullets fired by the Three Amigos armed robbers during Friday's high-speed chase on Atlantic Avenue ripped through the window of a home and came within 20 feet of a two-year-old boy having his diaper changed, the toddler's mother said Tuesday.

At least three bullets were fired by the robbers as they tried to elude the grocery store's owner, but instead of hitting Sian Kiat Koh , one round struck his Mercedes, a second killed 70-year-old Samuel Salomon, and another sliced through the window of the toddler's nine-year old sister's room, imbedding in a cabinet door, said her mother, Gloria Lozano-Figueroa.


Figueroa and her daughter were not home, but a babysitter was in the next room, changing Figueroa's two-year-old son in front of another window. The babysitter, who is in her 60s, heard what sounded like a "bomb," but thought it was just a car crash on Atlantic Avenue, Figueroa said.

"An angel was certainly watching over them," said Figueroa, 38, who lives in Delray Lakes Estates. "I am sorry to hear that Mr. Salomon was not as lucky." The men accused of Salomon's killing were in court Tuesday, where a judge ordered them held without bond. One of their lawyer's placed blame on Koh for pursuing the suspects, saying his decision to chase the robbers led to Salomon's "unnecessary death." "What's he, like, Robo-cop? There's a person dead because a storeowner chased after these ... suspects," said Gordon Richstone, the attorney for one of the accused robbers, Roger Rodriguez.

Figueroa said her son very nearly became the second casualty caused by a stray bullet Friday.

She had been at work when the shooting happened, and came home to find helicopters buzzing overhead. She and her daughter noticed the blinds in her room were disturbed. They saw a small hole in the wall.

"Mommy, is that a bug?" her daughter asked. Figueroa read reports of the shooting and manhunt, then realized the tiny hole had come from a stray bullet. She called the sheriff's office, which is investigating her report.

"What could have happened is very scary," said Figueroa, whose back yard faces Atlantic Avenue. "It was a freak thing." Luis Alfonso Reyes Castillo, 22, and Rodriguez, 29, were ordered held without bond Tuesday on first-degree murder charges for the armed robbery and chase that ended with Salomon's death.

Castillo and Rodriguez were allegedly caught on video robbing the Three Amigos store and its customers of up to $30,000 in cash. Friday is the day that laborers come in to cash their checks at stores like Three Amigos and the gunmen might have been involved in at least three other similar robberies in the county.

As Koh chased their getaway car at speeds over 100 miles per hour, the suspected robbers fired back, accidentally shooting into a Ford Windstar and killing Salomon, who was driving with his wife, making last minute preparations for Hanukkah.

Richstone said he was appointed to the case Monday and did not have the opportunity yet to go over the details with Rodriguez or watch the surveillance video.

"I just talked to my client. He's in tears. Obviously there's an unnecessary death," Richstone said.

But he also placed blame on Koh for pursuing the suspects on Florida's Turnpike to the west Atlantic Avenue exit, west of Delray Beach. Salomon was driving east on Atlantic when the bullet struck him.

"If somebody's robbing somebody with a firearm you let them take the money and leave. This was totally an unnecessary death. It does not justify what these idiots did during the robbery, but the store owner should be held responsible," said Richstone. "You can't be chasing after people with guns." Castillo's mother, girlfriend and other relatives drove up from Miami to support him in court. They declined to talk about him after the hearing.

They hired lawyer Alan Glueck to represent Castillo in the case.

"Obviously in these kind of cases, everyone is a victim. Their heart goes out to the family (of Salomon)," Glueck said.

He said his client was traumatized by the situation and sorry that someone died.

"It's my understanding he did take part. It's my understanding he was not the shooter," Glueck said after the hearing.

A third suspect, Victor Salastier Diaz Estevez, 19, is also in jail without bail.

Two more suspects, known only as George and Choco, are being sought.

Anyone with information is asked to call the Palm Beach County Violent Crimes Task Force at (561) 688-4000 .

Something to think about before chasing after, or shooting at, someone who stole something.

P.S. slimy lawyers make me :barf:.

[James K]

I agree about lawyers, but there is a point here. Defending yourself and your family from an immediate threat or protecting your property from an intruder is one thing, chasing crooks is another. There is no way anyone can warp the "castle doctrine" or "self defense" to cover this situation. Even if no gun were involved, the potential for a car crash is so great that I can't see the justification.

Sure, it goes against the grain to say that he should have left the BG's escape and called the cops, but what happened, and what nearly happened, simply is not justified by any "need" to apprehend the crooks, which is not the store owner's duty. The store owner would have been insured, so his loss would have been recovered. The loss of a life can't be.

Jim

[MyGunsJammed]

Store owner shoulda shot the robbers dead right in the store....

then there would be no need for a chase...

[W.E.G.]

...As Koh chased their getaway car at speeds over 100 miles per hour...

Always a bad decision.

[kgpcr]

we are not cops so dont act like them!! Our job is not to persue but to defend from an imediate threat!

[Spade Cooley]

When you were a kid and someone decided to steal your bicycle, would you chase him? Sure you would unless you were a big fat wimp.

If anyone steals from me and runs, I'll be in pursuit and shooting if necessary. There comes a time when we all have to stand up for what is right. To hell with the courts and doctrine. "Thou shalt not steal"!

[rampage841512]

Criminals shoot at me and hit someone else and I'm responsible because I'm chasing them after they have stolen from me? That's bull. Total and complete. Is chasing after them the best idea? I don't think so, but I don't think it is unjustified either.

I understand the defendants' lawyers position, but you cannnot justify a criminal act because someone is after you for committing another criminal act. IMO, the lawyer would be blaming police if they had been in pursuit. It's the old childhood "you made me do it, so it's not my fault" defense. It doesn't make much sense when put under even a little scrutiny, but it might represent mitigating circumstances that mean life with out parole instead of death (assuming Florida has mandatory capitol murder charges filed when the death occured during the commission of a felony).

[rampage841512]

Luis Alfonso Reyes Castillo, 22, and Rodriguez, 29, were ordered held without bond Tuesday on first-degree murder charges for the armed robbery and chase that ended with Salomon's death.

Well, it appears Florida does have such a law.

[zbordas]

I think Koh should be charged with reckless injury and death. He put a lot of people into risk in the community and it was absolutly unnecessary. If he did not stop the robery in his own store he cannot turn the streets and the community to the wild west.

Safety first!!!

If anyone in my family would loose his life because of an idiot like him I would be very pissed. Certainly would file civil lawsuit for damages.

[jrinne0430]

While I am new to this site, I have a question/comment about this thread. I would agree that chasing the suspects was very poor decision by the victim however; if I or any of my family was injured by this chase, I would be seeking criminal and civil actions against the instigators...the suspected robbers.

[TexasSeaRay]

I think Koh should be charged with reckless injury and death. He put a lot of people into risk in the community and it was absolutly unnecessary. If he did not stop the robery in his own store he cannot turn the streets and the community to the wild west.

Safety first!!!

If anyone in my family would loose his life because of an idiot like him I would be very pissed. Certainly would file civil lawsuit for damages.

Why, hell. If the guy only hadn't had the check-cashing business (that served hundreds of law-abiding customers), then the poor, disadvantaged pukebags that ROBBED HIM and SHOT AT HIM wouldn't have had to worry about a pissed off BUSINESS OWNER chasing them because the POLICE weren't ANYWHERE AROUND.

Spare me the "unnecessary risk" BS. You take a risk every time you get in your car or step outside the door. Criminals ENHANCE THAT RISK to us but you're whining about a business OWNER and not the p.o.s. CRIMINALS that precipitated the whole damn event.

Oh, that's right. If we'll all become sheep and simply hand over anything and everything a criminal demands, life will be good and nobody will be hurt.

I think the business-owner exercised bad judgement taking the chase as far as he did. But I also think a whole lot of Americans are sick and damned tired of all the excuses that sheeple make for not doing a damned thing about it.

Blame the freaking criminals. They're the start, root and origin of the problem.

Sheesh.

Jeff

[zbordas]

Unfortunately I cannot 100% agree with my fellow Texan.

You take a risk every time you get in your car or step outside the door.

There are different levels of risks. Obviously getting in your car and playig Russian Rulette hold different level of risks.

The business owner escaleted the risk level to an unacceptable level (to me) for innocent bystanders.

Lets assume you go to SeaWorld and somebody takes your wallet out of your pocket. You start chasing him and he stops and pulls out a gun and tells you let him go.
1. If you keep chasing the guy he might start shooting and hits you and a couple of kids waiting for the dolphin show.
2. You pull out your gun (not sure if SeaWorld is an "ammusement park" and you can legally take your gun) and get into a gun fight risking that even more kids get hurt or killed.
3. Stop chasing the guy.

This is a bit extreme but my choice would be definitely opt. 3. The owner should have justified his act and give it up and not trying to recover the stolen money at all cost and turn it into a tragedy and lossing innocent live(s).

But I also think a whole lot of Americans are sick and damned tired of all the excuses that sheeple make for not doing a damned thing about it.

I 100% agree and I'm also sick and tired of it.


Not sure if you follow Houston news but couple of months ago HPD changed its car chase policy after several innocent people died in accidents caused by evading criminals. In this case I guess even HPD would have stopped the pursuit.

I did not want to piss you off by the way just exposed my opinion. I am 110% anti criminal agreeing that criminals should have no rights at all and would 100% agree the business owner if he simply "executed" the "suspects" on the spot.

[Spade Cooley]

Some of the thinking on this board makes me understand why our country is in the shape it is in. We have more criminals in jail than any other country in the world yet we are the greatest with the most opportunity.

Once police give up chasing criminals in vehicular pursuits, no one is going to stop. Why should they?

[zbordas]

Because once a suspect gets into a suburb living community where kids play on the streets and sidewalks a 100 miles per hour carchase is a definite danger to innocent bystanders. There are other ways to capture the suspect; following from air, capturing license plate and track him down etc.

I am not sure what would you say if a 18 years old would run over your 3 kids playing in front of your house because he had a bag of pot in his pocket and running from the police. Or slam into the minivan your wife is driving with the 3 young kids on the back seat tip them over and killing all four of them.

Would you say: Good job? I doubt any reasonable human being would do.

[Glenn E. Meyer]

The shop owner was foolish to chase them. Is he legally cupable in the innocents' death and injury - not a lawyer here so I don't know.

I just think he was an idiot as his action went beyond risking his own life to spread the risks to others.

His sense of personal violation and loss is not sufficient to engage in behavior that can put innocents in the line of fire.

I don't know if he should go to jail (have to think about that) but if he is a decent and thinking person, his psychological health will be at serious risk now.

[Edward429451]

hup, that settles that. One horror story / scenario with the children in it can't be argued against. Nice, playing that for the children card. If the suspect in your scenario killed your kids then the police would not be held responsible, for they were ...in the course of their duties blah blah blah.

It wasn't the store owners bullets that killed the guy. He didn't initiate the course of events leading up to the incident, and shouldn't be held responsible. Yes, it's a tragedy what happened. What would you have us to do, Mr. Champion of the children, lay down and die? Not resist any crime? My god man, there's children everywhere. If we never resist because there might be a child around...soon thugs will be taking their kids to work with them.

[zbordas]

Hehe! Good idea. I'll take a few kids with me to my next bank robbery.

[Glenn E. Meyer]

What are you talking about, folks?

Resistance isn't a car chase that risks others. It's very simple to understand.

[Capt. Charlie]

Once police give up chasing criminals in vehicular pursuits, no one is going to stop. Why should they?

Agreed Spade, but a responsible officer will call off the pursuit when things get too hairy.

People say that domestics and traffic stops are the most dangerous things a cop can do. Baloney, and I say that from experience. It's vehicle pursuits. They're terrifying and they're dangerous. I've been in a lot of 'em over the last 25 years, and the most serious injury I've ever sustained in this business was the result of a vehicle pursuit gone bad. I was off work for four months and in substantial pain for years afterward.

Lots of cops get hurt or killed during pursuits, and they have the benefit of extensive training in offensive/defensive high speed driving, skid pan, PIT maneuvers, etc. Do you think the average motorist can do better?

This guy had every right to be angry, but when he put others at risk to satisfy his own rage, he stepped over the line.

[scottz0369]

That's just BS--it's unfortunate someone got killed, but what's the root cause of it? The storeowner chasing? I think not. He chased after being threatened. The BG's pulled the trigger. He wouldn't have chased had they not robbed him in the first place. Unintended consequence-people will think twice about robbing his store again, or any other that has an owner that may be like him.
Just hand over the money if the BG's have a gun? Then what? Hope they don't kill you on the spot? May as well put a sign on the door that says "I won't resist".
It's hard to tell ethnicity from the name, but he's more than likely asian. When I was in the LA Riots in '92 (I was with one of the two Marine Battalions sent up there), the Korean store owners were the only ones that didn't need our help. They were patrolling the areas around thier homes and businesses, and had OP's (for lack of a better term) on the roofs of their stores. They were almost as well armed as we were. End result: they didn't get messed with in the chaos that was erupting all around them. I felt very safe in their area of influence.

Scott
MSgt USMC

[Edward429451]

Yeah, I know Glenn. I'm just sick of hearing don't resist criminals, give em what they want, stand down. It might overpenetrate, miss, be a drunk neighbor, or a girl scout. Then the law goes after the real victim. Wronged by the law? Offer no resistance, let em have thier way, go and beg mercy from the court. And it's always for the children...:barf:

We citizens are stuck between a rock n a hard place with LEO's and thugs. When we do nothing, we lose on both fronts. It's not right. The worst thing is that some of us citizens buy into it and espouse standing down as a proper thing to do. Maybe the guy went too far and maybe he didn't.

[Glenn E. Meyer]

Excuse me - the issue was not resistance. Why do folks keep banging this drum?

The issue was engaging in a high speed chase that had the probability of harming innocents.

One has to look at the totality of possible outcomes. As Capt. C said, a civilian chasing armed criminals puts others at significant risk.

Risk you own butt but not everyone else on the highway.

I have no problem with resisting but being stupid is another thing.

[markj]

Lots of cops get hurt or killed during pursuits

My neighbor growing up had no dad, he was killed chasing bank robbers in Omaha in 1961, his pic is on the wall of the Police Union hall with the others killed in the line of duty.

Guy robs ya, leaves you alive, so you chase him and he shoots at ya and kills others. Hmmmmm I see it as both have a little fault here, not all but some. He is lucky he didnt get shot.

If anyone steals from me and runs, I'll be in pursuit and shooting if necessary.

Another scary thought. Old days houses were not as close together. Not as many folks around, real life isnt a western. Be responsible.

[Sigma 40 Blaster]

This is a pretty tough one...if the guy hadn't pursued them, the robbers would have likely not been shooting while making their getaway right? To a reasonable person that's a fair statement right?

So did his actions result in escalating the situation and exposing himself, the robbers, and others to injury and death? I think a reasonable answer is yes. I don't care what happened beforehand, his act of chasing led to death. It should be reckless endangerment or something similar, he did what he did with no malice or pre-meditation but we are all held to be responsible for our actions. The other guys get charged with murder during the commission of a robber...maybe a capital crime depending on how much was stolen.

Chasing and resisting/self defense are not in the same category. For all the good he did a description of the car and a license plate number would have been far better. Should he have been armed and stopped the robbery in progress? I would if I owned a business dealing with cash...I'd like to think I would anyway.

I've said several times already...I'm really afraid that if I am ever in a situation where I have to use my handgun for self-defense I am more afraid of some of our resident cowboys than the BG's...I hope I am never around when one of them is chasing a mugger or robber through a crowded area while shooting a 1911 in one hand, a S&W J-Frame in the other, with at least one polymer subcompact in a SOB holster ready for use next.

[Spade Cooley]

I've been in pursuits. Have you seen the Cop shows showing pursuits? They are all hairy! None of them are safe and they all put lives in danger. The street is a rough place.

There is no such thing as a safe pursuit. There will always be a kid somewhere during it or people on the sidewalk. Police can back off when an air unit is available but sooner or later you have to close in and take the suspect down. No fare saying the guy just might have a roach in his pocket or be driving without a license because he just as well might have kidnapped your daughter. I say chase down the bad guys and be relentless. I'll chance the colateral damage in order to get them off the street.