New Armscor m200 .38 trouble

[jpsshack]

Hi Folks,
I just received this revolver and my first time out discovered
A) it shoots 6-8" to the left and
B) The timing is off to the point that it will often not advance when shooting double action (gun fires pre-lock-up and the hand can't grab the star)

This feels like a serious quality-control issue, but I thought I'd throw it out to the forum and see if I'm alone here,
-jp

[lee n. field]

Hi Folks,
I just received this revolver and my first time out discovered
A) it shoots 6-8" to the left and

At what distance? (Not that it should be doing this at all.)

This feels like a serious quality-control issue, but I thought I'd throw it out to the forum and see if I'm alone here,
-jp

You bought this new? I would be returning it to whereever you got it.

[bigghoss]

Take it back and demand a refund. Then buy either a Smith Wesson, Ruger, or Colt DA revolver.

[jpsshack]

Brand new from Bud's. I have an RIA .45, which I really like, but this one is in rough shape outta the box. It was $200...I didn't expect an S&W, but I did expect basic functionality! I have sent an e-mail to Armscor and await a reply. I just wanted a knock-around .38 to take a little pressure off my S&W.

Distance=15 yds, and I'm a good shot. Worse off a rest at 25 yds. (8-10" left)

[Glenn Dee]

you get what you pay for

[jpsshack]

Don't think that didn't cross my mind...lesson learned.

[lowercase]

Send it in to Armscor customer service in Nevada.

They'll take care of you. Their customer service is quite good. I've sent in a RIA .45 and they had it back to me fixed in a very short time.

[jpsshack]

Thanks. Did you e-mail them first?

[lowercase]

Thanks. Did you e-mail them first?

I had a customer service number that I had seen on a RIA 1911 forum and gave them a call. I just sent it Fed Ex as "machine parts" to avoid having to pay something crazy like 80 bucks to ship a gun.

I don't have the phone number handy, but if you have their email address, that should work, too.

[jpsshack]

Thank you all again for the replies
If they're really accommodating I may send it back.
Otherwise, I believe I will smith it myself. Good project gun for $200, and other than the timing and sighting it's kind of cool. Gonna have to give 'em a low rating on the Bud's site, tho.

I'll let ya know how I fare.
'til then, let the buyer beware!

[Aguila Blanca]

They'll fix it. But do NOT ship it as "machine part5s." Doing so is a Federal felony offense.

I have an M200 and an M206. I'm very satisfied with both. It is what it is -- a knock-around, budget revolver. Fit and finish are not equal to a Colt Python, and I wasn't expecting that. One of mine shot a tad low, so I filed the sight.

I like them.

[Shadi Khalil]

I just sent it Fed Ex as "machine parts" to avoid having to pay something crazy like 80 bucks to ship a gun.

Are you telling us that Armscor accepts illegally shipped firearms? I seriously doubt that. Either you are not telling the truth or you'll soon have some legal troubles.

[lowercase]

Are you telling us that Armscor accepts illegally shipped firearms? I seriously doubt that. Either you are not telling the truth or you'll soon have some legal troubles.

Nothing illegal about it, and it's been discussed ad nauseum on gun forums.

Fedex isn't the USPS, and it's only company policy to require firearms be shipped next day. "Machine parts" don't have the same requirement for next-day shipping.

Please do me the courtesy of telling me which law is being broken. Below is a link to US Code governing the shipment of firearms. Thanks.

18 USC § 922 - Unlawful acts:
http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/922

[lowercase]

But do NOT ship it as "machine parts." Doing so is a Federal felony offense.

No, sir. Respectfully, is is most certainly NOT an offense.

I have not, and will not break the law, whether Federal, state, or local.

Here is the link to US Code governing the shipment of firearms:
http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/922

[Dfariswheel]

From Section "E" of the linked info:

"any package or other container in which there is any firearm or ammunition without written notice to the carrier".

Here's the relevant Federal Law on shipping firearms by any carrier:

ATF SHIPPING LAW
A nonlicensee may ship a firearm by a common or contract carrier to a resident of his or her own State or to a licensee in any State. A common or contract carrier must be used to ship a handgun. In addition, Federal law requires that the carrier be notified that the shipment contains a firearm and prohibits common or contract carriers from requiring or causing any label to be placed on any package indicating that it contains a firearm.
[18 U.S.C. 922(a)(2)(A), 922(a) (3), 922(a)(5) and 922(e), 27 CFR 478.31 and 478.30]

Note the "carrier be notified that the shipment contains a firearm".
Failure to notify the carrier the package contains a firearm or a serial numbered frame is a Federal offense.

Second reason not to lie:
If the gun is lost, stolen, or damaged the carrier will not pay you a dime, because you lied on the shipping form.
The shipping form is a legal contract. If you tell the shipper the package contains "machine parts" you've broken a legal contract and defrauded the carrier. They own you nothing and will give you nothing.

Think you can lie again when they ask what KIND of machine tools?
Don't you think they might get just a little suspicious when the address the package was shipped to is the address of a gun maker?

[lowercase]

From Section "E" of the linked info:

"any package or other container in which there is any firearm or ammunition without written notice to the carrier".

Here is the entire text of section "E". Read the entire section. I will highlight the relevant part:

(e) It shall be unlawful for any person knowingly to deliver or cause to be delivered to any common or contract carrier for transportation or shipment in interstate or foreign commerce, to persons other than licensed importers, licensed manufacturers, licensed dealers, or licensed collectors, any package or other container in which there is any firearm or ammunition without written notice to the carrier that such firearm or ammunition is being transported or shipped; except that any passenger who owns or legally possesses a firearm or ammunition being transported aboard any common or contract carrier for movement with the passenger in interstate or foreign commerce may deliver said firearm or ammunition into the custody of the pilot, captain, conductor or operator of such common or contract carrier for the duration of the trip without violating any of the provisions of this chapter. No common or contract carrier shall require or cause any label, tag, or other written notice to be placed on the outside of any package, luggage, or other container that such package, luggage, or other container contains a firearm.


If I'm sending a gun back to the manufacturer for warranty work, how is it a violation? As that code is written, I'm under no legal obligation to diclose if it is a firearm if sending it to the manufacturer.

Also, please send me the link for your reference ("ATF SHIPPING LAW"). I didn't know that "ATF SHIPPING LAW" superseded US federal law. I linked to US Code. That is the law, period. Not some FAQ page from the ATF website. The ATF doesn't write laws, and their FAQ page wouldn't stand up in court.

I found an old thread on this site where the same thing was being discussed. Here's the link. The hang up there mirrors the one in this thread.

http://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=470983

As far as your second point about the gun being lost or stolen, fair enough, but I want to focus on Federal law.

[Onward Allusion]

lowercase is correct. Keywords are "other than". If one were to just go to the ATF's website, it would: say the following

Q: May a nonlicensee ship a firearm by common or contract carrier?
A: nonlicensee may ship a firearm by a common or contract carrier to a resident of his or her own State or to a licensee in any State. A common or contract carrier must be used to ship a handgun. In addition, Federal law requires that the carrier be notified that the shipment contains a firearm and prohibits common or contract carriers from requiring or causing any label to be placed on any package indicating that it contains a firearm.
[18 U.S.C. 922(a)(2)(A), 922(a) (3), 922(a)(5) and 922(e), 27 CFR 478.31 and 478.30]

HOWEVER, the statute is...

(e) It shall be unlawful for any person knowingly to deliver or cause to be delivered to any common or contract carrier for transportation or shipment in interstate or foreign commerce, to persons other than licensed importers, licensed manufacturers, licensed dealers, or licensed collectors, any package or other container in which there is any firearm or ammunition without written notice to the carrier that such firearm or ammunition is being transported or shipped; except that any passenger who owns or legally possesses a firearm or ammunition being transported aboard any common or contract carrier for movement with the passenger in interstate or foreign commerce may deliver said firearm or ammunition into the custody of the pilot, captain, conductor or operator of such common or contract carrier for the duration of the trip without violating any of the provisions of this chapter. No common or contract carrier shall require or cause any label, tag, or other written notice to be placed on the outside of any package, luggage, or other container that such package, luggage, or other container contains a firearm.

Take out the blue text and it becomes what so many individuals believe. I recall someone on TFL pointing this out to me a while back. Up until that point, I thought it was a violation of Federal Laws to ship a firearm to a FFL using a common carrier w/o informing them that the package contains a firearm and paying overnight shipping, instead of UPS Ground or something less expensive. The main caveat is the gun's value and insurability. For something like an Armscor M200, I'd use UPS Ground with Tracking & Adult Signature Required and not overnight.

Going back to the OP's Armscor, just send it back to the factory. They will fix it and send it back to you. No need to kitchen table smith it. It'll cost you about $15 total.

[jpsshack]

Alright, I won't give up on them yet.

[lowercase]

Take out the blue text and it becomes what so many individuals believe. I recall someone on TFL pointing this out to me a while back. Up until that point, I thought it was a violation of Federal Laws to ship a firearm to a FFL using a common carrier w/o informing them that the package contains a firearm and paying overnight shipping, instead of UPS Ground or something less expensive. The main caveat is the gun's value and insurability. For something like an Armscor M200, I'd use UPS Ground with Tracking & Adult Signature Required and not overnight.

Well said. Thank you.

[Dfariswheel]

Agreed the section is a little fuzzy unless you read it closer than I did.

But you're still left with defrauding the shipper and breaking the terms of the legal contract.
Have a problem and you're SOL.

[JohnKSa]

It's also worthwhile to note how the BATF interprets the law, per their FAQ.

Maybe it won't hold up in court, but it seems unwise to ignore their plain statement of how they believe it reads and also the implication that they intend to attempt to enforce it per their interpretation.

It seems likely that the money spent to ship it per the contract carrier's policy could save the shipper a lot of money, time and trouble in the (admittedly unlikely) event that the package breaks open or the contents are otherwise discovered in transit.

[James K]

Read the law as you will, making a false statement to the carrier might still be a problem. It might not be technically illegal but if something were to happen (the gun is stolen and used in a crime, for example) the carrier could claim that the liability rests with the shipper, who deliberately lied to the carrier. Or the shipper could even be accused of being an accessory before the fact in the crime, since he made it possible by deliberately bypassing the carrier's security measures.

I have found it best to be friendly with my local dealer; if I have to ship a modern gun, he will use the mail at a cost of a few dollars and I can still save enough to pay his fee.

Jim

[jpsshack]

update: Armscor responded immediately by phone to my courteous yet firm snail mail letter. I'm mailing the gun to Armscor, postage paid.