Stopping Power

[Machinist]

esldude,
How about the study of BULListics .

[Model520Fan]

I must say that it is very refreshing to open a thread on "stopping power" and find words like "spine" and "mobility," while the existence of "stopping power" is questioned. Many thanks to JohnKSa, 00 Spy, Kn45 and others for an intelligent thread. It is much more fun to write "Thanks!" than to write an essay on why M&S's books are full of it.

Thanks!

[claude783]

Gotta admit, I continue to learn every time I get on this web site!

Thanks!

Now, one other possibility in the shooting department, would be a round put through the liver. Since all of the blood in the body goes through this organ, I would imagine the blood pressure would drop pretty quickly...maybe not as effective as a 22 round bouncing around inside their skull!

A slighly downward shot, going through the liver would also hit the pelvic girdle...so you would probably knock them off their feet from a mechincal view point, and in the time they tried to regain their footing, the blood pressure should have dropped enough to finish said gremlin!

[TomNash]

Ignoring the Marshall-Sanow fraud, the study of wound ballistics is based on very simple physical principles and the 'engineering part' of bullet design is governed by a clear statement of performance expectations for a design (i.e. "a 9mm bullet that will end up at 150% diameter after penetrating 12" in calibrated ballistic gelatin") and is based upon reasonable worst-case scenarios.

Take rifle-resistant plates for ninja-vests. These typically weigh 4-8lbs, cover a 10"x12" area of the chest/back and can most typically stop up to 308 win rifles. The reasonable worst-case is pretty much exemplified here - the highest rifle threat likely encountered by the vests wearer is likely a 308win or similar rifle, as these calibers are so prevalent in world military arsenals. The reasonability of designing a plate that could stop a .50BMG is similar to the reasonability of designing an ultra-high velocity handgun bullet - it might be useful in 10% of the cases, but would prove to be too much of a liability to the intended user the other 90% of the time. As a result, a middle-of-the-road performance is usually the goal - so that the design will work very well in most circumstances. This is why no law enforcement agency uses 'mega voodootrillium' type bullets.

So, in short, a bullet can only be designed to meet standards based on medically established wounding mechanisms, everything else in the world (like 'jibby-shok' and 'energy stretch') is not considered revelant. A bullet that can penetrate 12" in calibrated ballistic gelatin will meet FBI penetration depth standards; no attention is paid to bullet expansion requirements in these tests. Shot placement matters alot, fancy bullets are only good if they can meet FBI penetration criteria, IMO. I think that avoidance of a problem is the ultimate 'one shot stop' and will not cause you years of mental disruption as a result. Good luck... Tom

[rkc]

Yeah! BS junk science--- got it right

but there ARE other studies

each and every year for over fifty years the FBI has complied an annual report on police officers killed that has been used by many agencies to study the deaths of peace officers. This is a study with repeatable verifiable facts.

it does tell the calibers that killed officers, sure, but do you know what the report focues on?????

Tactics and tactical mistakes. This just may be more important than magic bullets.

[Ozzieman]

Gelleton material would mean a lot more if you used heavy clothing which tends to fill jacked hollow points.
I get a little tired about hearing bullets that travel 15 inches through molds being so great.
The faster that a bullet stops, the less distance it traveles for the same energy has imparted its energy faster and usualy the "WOUND CAVITY" is much worse.
Tests that were done for the millitary back in the stone age found that the Simi Wadd cutter was a very good round becouse of the sharp edge makes the wound cavity much larger than the actual hole.
Nerves that were more than an inch from the actual damaged hole were destroyed by the passing of the bullet
The hole means nothing if it zips through. And if the bullet fails to open up which does happen when the nose is filled with clothing you have nothing more than a hard ball. Pray to God there is no one standing behind them.

[dfaugh]

Two in the chest..(pause)..one in the head. Repeat if needed. That's what my LEO friends tell me,...and why else do they have 3 round burst on SMGs?

[Ozzieman]

But it matters little if you cant hit what your shooting at. When I hear these kind of questions and statements I wonder what kind of gun there carring.
I cant hide an N frame smith and I hate shooting 357 mags in a 3 in mod 19 smith. I can hide a charter arms bull dog in 44 special and Ill take that round over a 357 any day.
Big and slow is a lot easer to controle than the Viper rounds in 38's for me.

[jacketch]

For real stopping power I'll take power disc brakes with abs.

When it comes to shooting, I subscribe to the "shoot till they stop" philosophy regardless of the caliber I am using at the time.

[Rusty S]

A recent ( this month? ) comment by Marshal suggested either using a 12 ga. or being prepared to shoot to slidelock.

[Dusty Miller]

Ya just gotta LOVE them big heavy bullets that travel FAST!!

[Picher]

I recognize the dissimilarity between animals and humans in how they respond to being shot, but have seen many deer shot by me and others with many different kinds of weapons over 50 years. What amazes me is how much energy that can be expended in an animal by various magnums and "great" deer rounds like the 30-06 and, if not placed well, result in a deer going a long ways before either dying, or recovering sufficiently to get away.

Typical heart shot deer will run 80 or more yards. Lung shot deer will go 20 yards. Spine shots and neck shots will drop the animal on the spot. I once shot a small doe through the lungs that was running full speed and it made it about 150 yards before collapsing and dying. Now that was a fairly well-placed killing shot, at 15 yards, with a cartridge that has 3 or more times the power of the 9mm parabellum. It's a good thing she wasn't a BG headed for me.

That said, I'm not impressed by the wound channels of handgun rounds, especially when dispatching wounded animals. I had to finish a deer off that was shot with one and it didn't react at all when hit by my .44 mag in the neck. The 30-06 did the job quite well, however.

My point is that it's extremely difficult, perhaps lucky, to be able to hit a person anywhere in the body, much less exactly where you want to, when you are under stress. It's not the same as shooting at silhouettes. They don't shoot back very often. If you try for head, neck, or other high value, but small targets, the chance of hitting them will be very small.

If a BG were coming at me, I would hopefully carry enough gun and shoot for the fairly large pelvic/upper legs area to drop them. There's always the chance you'll hit the spine. As they start falling, subsequent shots may hit heart, lung, or brain.

Remember, if a BG is trying to avoid getting shot, his head will move before his hips. He may try to drop, duck, or move laterally. The hips move more slowly than most parts of the body, and more truly indicate the direction of movement because they are near the body's center of gravity. That's why football and basketball players are taught to watch the belt buckle, not the head, when trying to defend against an opponent.

Just an old guy's opinion. But what do I know? I still shoot .357 mag. revolvers.

Picher

[rkc]

for BillCa-

You definitely understand the problem and better than most.


I agree.

[fastbolt]

Stopping Power is something I consider in regard to the braking ability of my vehicles ...

Immediate Incapacitation is something I consider in regard to the desired potential effect my hits may have upon some threat ...

I sometimes wonder if the use of the term "Stopping Power", instead of immediate incapacitation, isn't becoming similar to way some folks use the term "clip", instead of magazine.

[favery]

I have read a lot of reports and opinions on the matter of the best man stopping round and I think the most logical is: the bigger the hole the better the hole. I understand the most important facters to be: 1) placement 2) penetration 3) size of hole. Most likely the best practical round for self defence is the .45 auto. Even the .44 mag has a smaller hole (.42"). The .357 sig is going fast (with lots of energy) but makes too small a hole for my taste. I prefer the .40 s&w over the sig. Probably too much is made of energy transfer (perhaps not so with rifle rounds). One can deliver more energy with a ball bat.

[caegal]

I agree that the Marshall and Sanow study is mostly bad science, there are too many variables to take into account to be completely accurate. You can see this by the huge swing in Percentage of Stops from year to year in the same bullet. There is no verifiable or repeatable result.

If the study does show one thing, it suggests that a bigger hole at a higher velocity will drop someone with more frequentcy than a smaller hole at a slower velocity. That is shown by the trend of the entire study.

Other than that, the idea of stopping power is really dependant on shot placement, luck, and the will of the attacker. I have shot deer in the heart that ran, and I have shot some that just dropped. I will be damned if I know why one ran and the other didnt.

Best stopping power is lots of large holes in vital areas, repeat until desired result.

[Ninjato]

No offense intended here and I am sure many of you can shoot better than me BUT

Danindetroit wrote: The big arteries, are the aorta, which has high pressure. It goes down the body in front, to the right of the spine. At around your belly button and a couple inches lower, it the splits into the iliac artery, and that splits into the femoral artery, and another artery that runs behind your femur. If you shoot a round nice and quick into the soft belly of an attacker, slightly to the right of the midline on his body, you have an uninterrupted shot to the aorta, no bones, no ribs which will drain a person in seconds, the illiac artery will do it, the femoral will take longer,but they will pass out quick. Shoot low and to the left, on the same side as the heart, and then as your muzzle rise, keep the gun straight, and slightly to the right, the aorta drops almost vertically from the heart. You will probably get a good shot with no bone through the gut, and at least disrupt spinal nerves, and the attackers legs might go unsteady, then one in the chest for the heart, maybe lower, then one in the head.

I think you have to be on hell of a shooter to pull this off on a moving/rushing target. I'll be happy to just get a hit.

These hypothetical situations are just that. I doubt anyone can pull off what they say in the heat of the moment unless they have had years of training...and even then. I see this kind of discussion pertaining to martial arts. People will actually sit and work out complex self defense techniques only to never use them when the situation calls for it.

The reality is, I doubt ANYONE is willing to stand there and take a bullet...if there is, it certainly is not me. I don't care if it is only a .22LR.

[rn22723]

One thing that was barely touched on, you have to put rounds on target!
You shoot to terminate the aggression. That might come with one round or slide lock! You constantly have to reassess! All this techno mumbo jumbo is great reading! And, has some relevance of course. But, we all live in the real world. There are way to many variables to take into account. Simply put you need to get rounds on the target!

Take all the propoganda with a grain of salt! You need to pick a bullet with a good reputation. Ensure function in your firearm. And load up!

[rwilson452]

A quote attributed to the late W.Earp, "Fast is good, accuracy is final." Any modern centerfire chambering is capable of eliminating a threat from a BG but if you can't hit the BG it's not going to work. Mostly I carry either a .45ACP or a .38SPL depending on the concealment situation. I am good with either. I prefer the .45 because I used it for 20 years in the service so I'm more familure with it. As I recall from my reading the main reason the LEO group went to the 357 was the inability of the 38 to penetrate a car. I have seen several examples of both the 38 and the 9mm not getting past the windshield of a car. I have seen an example of a load of buckshot make a total mess of a windshield but not penetrate. For me if the perp is in his/her car trying to run away, I'll wave bye, bye. Use what you can use and will use. any gun left behind is useless.

[Danindetroit]

Ninjato the fact that you have to put the phrase no offense intended in a posts, means that you think it is offensive.

When I shot regularly, I could make head shots at 25 yards with a g-27, that had trijicon sights.

I could also shoot three shoots at 7 to 10 yds, rapid fire from the belt buckle up to below the clavicle. This was done because I had the gun at my side, and acted like I was drawing, from a holster, I shot when the gun was on target, and continued as the gun rose. The holes wandered, but were in vital areas.

The range worker, would help me and my wife out with shooting. He was a firefighter, and worked at a couple gunstores. He was a nice guy who heped me and my wife out. We would give him LE rounds for his time. It seemed a natural way to shoot, to get off a round, before the gun was pointed at the chest, maybe you could get in a shot on the lower torso. I am trying to get my wife some training, I know she does not know anatomy, since a 4 year degree in criminal justice doesn't require any. She is resistant to the idea.

I think you have to be on hell of a shooter to pull this off on a moving/rushing target.

Where do I say that I did that?

No offense intended.

[Para Bellum]

My business partner was stabbed in the head by a schizophrenic-paranoid until the knife broke on my partner's head. He made it. After 7 operations he's back to work. Other than me he is a pacifist. I practice hand-to-hand combat as a hobby and since that incident I carry a gun.

Since there is no reliable information on bullet-performance out there and the subject is too vital to trust anybody else, I did my own ballistic tests. After studying whatever material I could find on the web, shooting .45s and 9x19mm pistols, I decided that the 9x19mm Glock 19 is my gun.

Then I went on to search for the most reasonable defense load. I live in Vienna/Austria (Europe) where hollowpoints are illegal. The Federal EMFJ isn't, frangible bullets are neither. So I conducted my own wetpack-Test of the Federal EMFJ and Fiocchi Frangible Ammunition in 9x19mm. I published the result with many pics on my website: http://www.raoulwagner.com/9mm.htm
The EMFJ did remarkably well: When I look at the 18mm (0,70") expansion, the 11,5cm (4,52") penetration (hard wetpack) and the shockwave with a diameter of up to 6,5cm (2,55"), I believe that this bullet is very likely to
1. transfer all its energy to the first body being hit (and doesn't endanger my family or employees around);
2. cause significant tissue destruction, pain, blood-loss, shock, and punch;
3. penetrate deep enough to fatally damage vital organs and central nerves.

More penetration would not be acceptable to me; I assume that in the real world I would not be firing at anybody being farther away than 10m (30ft). I even think that the actual self-defense range is 0 to 3m (up to 10ft). Therefore I think that aiming is not the problem. If he moves towards me, he will be close enough to be hit when I fire. If he moves away, I call the police from my cell phone. If he moves towards somebody I want to save, so will I. some IPSC-practice taught me to run and accurately aim and shoot (at short distances) at the same time.

More penetration than e.g. the EMFJ provides seems to cause an extreme risk of (i) not punching enough, since not all energy is being transferred, and (ii) killing a good guy behind the bad guy or behind the door, window or wall behind the bad guy...

The Glaser, Magsafe and Corbon sound interesting to, but nobody imports them into Austria (any salesman listening?).

Stay safe.
___________________________________
Tradition is the illusion of permanence

[Mannlicher]

its been said that "stopping power" is best defined by "where you hit them" and "how many times did you hit them", NOT "what you hit them with"