Who needs a bore guide?

7MMGUY · September 18, 2010, 08:40 AM

While bore guides may have been used by benchrest shooters for a long time, they only began to become popular with sellers like Cabelas, Midway, etc about ten years ago. What did shooters do before that, ruin their barrels, I doubt it. Why would bumping an aluminum, brass, or carbon fiber rod against the rifling of a barrel cause damage when sending a hard jacketed bullet down the bore at 3000fps does not? Some of my older rifles, two Sakos come to mind, have been shot and cleaned hundreds of times and still shoot three shot into a 1/2 inch at 100yds consistently. Educate me, why do I need a bore guide?

W.Berry · September 18, 2010, 08:44 AM

Exactly, I think the same way if you clean it whats the little rod going to do, and if its a problem then lets get a bore snake. Excellent question, I To and very curious

**Unclenick** · September 18, 2010, 12:17 PM

I think this started with concern about cleaning from the muzzle with steel military rods. If you've looked at surplus military guns, a lot of old ones have funneled muzzles with no rifling left. That's due to the steel rods and also due to the soldiers being given more practice cleaning than shooting in many instances. Military barrels aren't disqualified for accuracy as early as a civilian shooter would consider one shot out, either.

Most of the modern concern with the soft metal rods is about embedded grit being in their surfaces. Steel rods are often made with coatings that can embed, too, but that's a red herring to me. The bore guide causes these rods to go in straight enough that they don't lean against one side of the bore or the other as they enter. That's what causes the funneling in the military muzzles to be as asymmetric as it usually is.

I use the bore guides for a couple of reasons. One is that I don't like getting cleaning compounds dripping down into the action from the chamber. That can spoil inletting by swelling wood unevenly or can affect glass bedding by lubricating it when it should be dry.

Another reason is I often put pretty sharp crowns on my guns. They do indeed shave coatings off rods and will cut the center out of a patch I try to push one into them when new, so I am having to clean them from the breech anyway. I suppose I could clean these rifles muzzle-down to protect the action from the cleaning compounds, but the guides are just easier, especially the Sinclair guides with the solvent port plug-in accessory, letting me put the gun in a cleaning vice or set it on bags without dribbling solvent all over it.

The final reason is that I still use a stainless rod and steel rods the coatings scraped off of before I had guides. Again, this prevents the rod leaning to one side or the other going into the bore.

Dfariswheel · September 18, 2010, 09:25 PM

A common cause of damaging the delicate muzzle is when soft metal rods like brass or aluminum are used.
Grit gets embedded into the soft metal and this converts the rod into literally an abrasive coated lapping rod, which wears the barrel.

Another way barrels get damaged is by using screw-together rods. These never match perfectly, leaving an edge that can catch, and as the rods get used, the pressure of screwing them together causes a lip of metal to form at the joint.
These edges will catch and damage the muzzle.

A bore guide keeps a rod from from contacting the muzzle and that prevents undue wear and damage.
Bore guides cost very significantly less than a new barrel or a new gun that no longer shoots well.

4runnerman · September 18, 2010, 09:29 PM

I would never think of cleaning my custom barrel with out one. As stated they turn into a basically sandpaper wearing away at your rifiling. Cheap investement for $40.00. Also stops slop and cleaning agent from getting in action.

HiBC · September 19, 2010, 08:11 PM

You do whatever makes you happy!!I am not going to try to convert you.I think there is no need to disdain someone who takes some extra care.
In the old days it was mostly a production remchester barrel,a 2 in group was fine hunting accuracy,and a real prize hummer might be an M-70 220 swift that got 1 MOA.
Barrel steels are not real hard.
If I spend my $350 plus on a Lilja,Badger,Northern Comp,Kreiger,those folks went to a lot of trouble lapping me sharp edges,smooth,uniform surfaces.I think it is wise to take precautions to do no harm.I do not always use a guide.I do always use a hard stainless one piece rod.I wipe it down before and after each pass.

brickeyee · September 19, 2010, 09:23 PM

You do realize the surface of an aluminum rod is coated in aluminum oxide, the same as the abrasive on sandpaper.

The start of the rifling gets burned away fast enough without adding cleaning wear.

I Dewey coated steel rods, and wipe them off after a single trip down and back from the breech to prevent any grit from sticking to the coating.

Keeping the rod centered ion the bore at least limits that source of wear.

4runnerman · September 20, 2010, 05:30 AM

Big +1 here Brickeyee. I like tight groups and will do what ever to keep them

celtgun · September 20, 2010, 06:50 AM

The bore guides that prevent cleaning debris and solvent from running into the action and stock are a great idea, IMO. I have recently "deep cleaned" 2 guns and what a mess they were inside. They went from non-fictioning to 100% in 30 minutes time. Years of WD-40 and crud equals malfunction.

As much time and money as we spend on hunting and shooting the little expense of good cleaning tools is nothing. To have a good shot spoiled by a minor mishap is unacceptable, even if its just my nephews shooting at tin cans, which is as good as shooting gets, to tell the truth. And not sighting in or using low price ammo for hunting just doesn't make any sense.

Take a kid fishing or shooting or hunting. You will have as good a time as they do and will be planting a seed for the future.

Pray and Shoot Daily.
Lee Jones(Celtgun)

There is hardly a product of our culture that someone cannot make a little worse and sell for a little less. The one who puts price above all other considerations is the natural prey of this man."
John Ruskin

johnbt · September 20, 2010, 10:02 AM

"What did shooters do before that"

You mean like 50 or 60 years ago when I was a kid? We couldn't afford much ammo for hunting and certainly not for target practice and blasting (except a box of .22 rimfire maybe.) We only cleaned the guns before we put them up for the winter. Maybe.

John

7MMGUY · September 20, 2010, 04:33 PM

I use a Tipton carbon fiber rod which is a non imbedding material according to them. I would not argue that bore guides may be good but not necessary if careful cleaning techniques are used. Some of my oldest rifles, two Sakos I mentioned earlier, still shoot three shots into 1/2 inch at 100yds. I started shooting and cleaning these guns almost 40 yrs ago long before carbon fiber rods and bore guides were available to the average shooter. No bore damage according to the performance.

September 18, 2010, 08:40 AM	#1
7MMGUY Member Join Date: September 4, 2010 Posts: 78	Who needs a bore guide? While bore guides may have been used by benchrest shooters for a long time, they only began to become popular with sellers like Cabelas, Midway, etc about ten years ago. What did shooters do before that, ruin their barrels, I doubt it. Why would bumping an aluminum, brass, or carbon fiber rod against the rifling of a barrel cause damage when sending a hard jacketed bullet down the bore at 3000fps does not? Some of my older rifles, two Sakos come to mind, have been shot and cleaned hundreds of times and still shoot three shot into a 1/2 inch at 100yds consistently. Educate me, why do I need a bore guide?

September 18, 2010, 12:17 PM	#3
Unclenick Staff Join Date: March 4, 2005 Location: Ohio Posts: 21,060	I think this started with concern about cleaning from the muzzle with steel military rods. If you've looked at surplus military guns, a lot of old ones have funneled muzzles with no rifling left. That's due to the steel rods and also due to the soldiers being given more practice cleaning than shooting in many instances. Military barrels aren't disqualified for accuracy as early as a civilian shooter would consider one shot out, either. Most of the modern concern with the soft metal rods is about embedded grit being in their surfaces. Steel rods are often made with coatings that can embed, too, but that's a red herring to me. The bore guide causes these rods to go in straight enough that they don't lean against one side of the bore or the other as they enter. That's what causes the funneling in the military muzzles to be as asymmetric as it usually is. I use the bore guides for a couple of reasons. One is that I don't like getting cleaning compounds dripping down into the action from the chamber. That can spoil inletting by swelling wood unevenly or can affect glass bedding by lubricating it when it should be dry. Another reason is I often put pretty sharp crowns on my guns. They do indeed shave coatings off rods and will cut the center out of a patch I try to push one into them when new, so I am having to clean them from the breech anyway. I suppose I could clean these rifles muzzle-down to protect the action from the cleaning compounds, but the guides are just easier, especially the Sinclair guides with the solvent port plug-in accessory, letting me put the gun in a cleaning vice or set it on bags without dribbling solvent all over it. The final reason is that I still use a stainless rod and steel rods the coatings scraped off of before I had guides. Again, this prevents the rod leaning to one side or the other going into the bore. __________________ Gunsite Orange Hat Family Member CMP Certified GSM Master Instructor NRA Certified Rifle Instructor NRA Benefactor Member and Golden Eagle Last edited by Unclenick; September 20, 2010 at 11:49 AM.

September 20, 2010, 06:50 AM	#9
celtgun Senior Member Join Date: August 17, 2008 Location: SE North Carolina Posts: 203	Protect action too The bore guides that prevent cleaning debris and solvent from running into the action and stock are a great idea, IMO. I have recently "deep cleaned" 2 guns and what a mess they were inside. They went from non-fictioning to 100% in 30 minutes time. Years of WD-40 and crud equals malfunction. As much time and money as we spend on hunting and shooting the little expense of good cleaning tools is nothing. To have a good shot spoiled by a minor mishap is unacceptable, even if its just my nephews shooting at tin cans, which is as good as shooting gets, to tell the truth. And not sighting in or using low price ammo for hunting just doesn't make any sense. Take a kid fishing or shooting or hunting. You will have as good a time as they do and will be planting a seed for the future. Pray and Shoot Daily. Lee Jones(Celtgun) There is hardly a product of our culture that someone cannot make a little worse and sell for a little less. The one who puts price above all other considerations is the natural prey of this man." John Ruskin

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September 18, 2010, 08:44 AM	#2
W.Berry Junior Member Join Date: September 18, 2010 Location: Kingston, Ontario Posts: 3	Exactly, I think the same way if you clean it whats the little rod going to do, and if its a problem then lets get a bore snake. Excellent question, I To and very curious

September 18, 2010, 09:25 PM	#4
Dfariswheel Senior Member Join Date: May 4, 2001 Posts: 7,478	A common cause of damaging the delicate muzzle is when soft metal rods like brass or aluminum are used. Grit gets embedded into the soft metal and this converts the rod into literally an abrasive coated lapping rod, which wears the barrel. Another way barrels get damaged is by using screw-together rods. These never match perfectly, leaving an edge that can catch, and as the rods get used, the pressure of screwing them together causes a lip of metal to form at the joint. These edges will catch and damage the muzzle. A bore guide keeps a rod from from contacting the muzzle and that prevents undue wear and damage. Bore guides cost very significantly less than a new barrel or a new gun that no longer shoots well.

September 18, 2010, 09:29 PM	#5
4runnerman Senior Member Join Date: January 16, 2010 Location: Minnesota Posts: 3,577	I would never think of cleaning my custom barrel with out one. As stated they turn into a basically sandpaper wearing away at your rifiling. Cheap investement for $40.00. Also stops slop and cleaning agent from getting in action.

September 19, 2010, 08:11 PM	#6
HiBC Senior Member Join Date: November 13, 2006 Posts: 8,283	You do whatever makes you happy!!I am not going to try to convert you.I think there is no need to disdain someone who takes some extra care. In the old days it was mostly a production remchester barrel,a 2 in group was fine hunting accuracy,and a real prize hummer might be an M-70 220 swift that got 1 MOA. Barrel steels are not real hard. If I spend my $350 plus on a Lilja,Badger,Northern Comp,Kreiger,those folks went to a lot of trouble lapping me sharp edges,smooth,uniform surfaces.I think it is wise to take precautions to do no harm.I do not always use a guide.I do always use a hard stainless one piece rod.I wipe it down before and after each pass.

September 19, 2010, 09:23 PM	#7
brickeyee Senior Member Join Date: December 29, 2004 Posts: 3,351	You do realize the surface of an aluminum rod is coated in aluminum oxide, the same as the abrasive on sandpaper. The start of the rifling gets burned away fast enough without adding cleaning wear. I Dewey coated steel rods, and wipe them off after a single trip down and back from the breech to prevent any grit from sticking to the coating. Keeping the rod centered ion the bore at least limits that source of wear.

September 20, 2010, 05:30 AM	#8
4runnerman Senior Member Join Date: January 16, 2010 Location: Minnesota Posts: 3,577	Big +1 here Brickeyee. I like tight groups and will do what ever to keep them

September 20, 2010, 10:02 AM	#10
johnbt Senior Member Join Date: December 6, 1999 Location: Richmond, Virginia USA Posts: 6,004	"What did shooters do before that" You mean like 50 or 60 years ago when I was a kid? We couldn't afford much ammo for hunting and certainly not for target practice and blasting (except a box of .22 rimfire maybe.) We only cleaned the guns before we put them up for the winter. Maybe. John

September 20, 2010, 04:33 PM	#11
7MMGUY Member Join Date: September 4, 2010 Posts: 78	I use a Tipton carbon fiber rod which is a non imbedding material according to them. I would not argue that bore guides may be good but not necessary if careful cleaning techniques are used. Some of my oldest rifles, two Sakos I mentioned earlier, still shoot three shots into 1/2 inch at 100yds. I started shooting and cleaning these guns almost 40 yrs ago long before carbon fiber rods and bore guides were available to the average shooter. No bore damage according to the performance.