Need revised advice on 44 magnum load

[Elkins45]

Back in this thread http://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=413698 I asked about a 44 magnum load for last-ditch bear defense. The general consensus was a hard cast heavy bullet with a broad meplat.
OK, so I ordered a Lee 300 GR FP mold and cast some bullets.

I loaded some up in front of 18 grains of 2400, which is a full power load. I took them to the range today and discovered a big problem. The gun I intend to shoot them in is a Smith & Wesson 329 scandium super lightweight revolver. After the 5th test round there was a patch of torn skin on my palm, and I'm not sure but I think the cylinder actually spun during recoil during the second cylinder full. This gun is unmanageable at full power with the 300 grain bullet, but I have no problems with it when shooting full power 240 grain jacketed loads.

So here's the revised question: would I be better off sticking with the heavy bullets and reducing the velocity until the gun (and I) can handle them, or should I drop back to 240 grains and still load them to full magnum level?

TIA for any advice.

[rjrivero]

I guess that kind of depends.

Those scandium guns are "Carry often, fire little" with HEAVY FULL POWER LOADS.

What was the velocity of the 300gr FP with 18gr of 2400 behind it?

Wat is the velocity of the 240gr Jacketed loads you are considering using instead?

We can make some estimations of the Ft/Lbs of energy given the correct information.

Did you happen to shoot 5 rounds and then investigate the 6th?

I have yet to find a factory load that doesn't unseat just a little by the 5th round in my 329PD.

[Buzzcook]

Back down to the 240gr. Better to give up a little weight than loose velocity.

[Elkins45]

The loadbook suggests about 1050 fps for the 300 grain and about 1400 fps for the 240. That would give the KE advantage to the 240, but is the momentum of the heavy slug more important?

EDIT: according to the calculator on this site http://www.n4lcd.com/calc/ the 240 grain load has both higher momentum AND higher KE. It looks like I may have answered my own question.

[rtpzwms]

I asked about a 44 magnum load for last-ditch bear defense.

A little skin or a bear attack? I'm thinking the bear is VERY near and still coming. Loose the skin. With that out of the way build some rounds that you can handle without loosing skin for practice.

[Elkins45]

A little skin or a bear attack? I'm thinking the bear is VERY near and still coming. Loose the skin. With that out of the way build some rounds that you can handle without loosing skin for practice.

The skin isn't really the issue, the spinning cylinder is. I think the recoil is enough that the gun itself can't handle it.

Like most new S&W products, I fear I got less than I paid for. I had the same problem with a scandium J frame that liked to spin the cylinder with standard pressure 38 loads. For that much money they should be good for more that 100 rounds.

[Rifleman1776]

That spinning cylinder would initiate a quick trip to the pawn shop to unload tha gun for me.
But, I have loaded and shot max .44 mag. rounds with 300 gr. jacketed bullets in my Ruger Redhawk. That is a much heavier gun than yours and I'll tell you, it is a major handful to shoot. Recoil is very uncomfortable.
My philosophy is a gun is of little value if you cannot shoot it well. That requires much shooting. And, I believe, shooting should be fun. A banger like that is no fun to shoot.
Admittedly, a max 300 gr bullet will do more to discourage bruin than lesser. You have decisions to make.

[reloader28]

Was it accurate? Try backing it down and see if you can hit anything with it. I like to find a load that is accurate and I can hang on to it. Then shoot it into some milk jugs of water and see what it does for penatration and bullet damage. Then do the same with the 240gr.

If you keep shooting those hot loads, you may develope a flinch that never leaves. I dont think you'll need those heavy loads anyway, cause I dont think you need to push a cast bullet as hard as a jacketed to get equal penatration.

In any pistol, I try and find a load that I can hang onto and hit what I'm aiming at. If you cant hit it, you cant kill it. I cant hold a pistol as solid as I want cause of carpal tunnel or whatever thats called. Personally I like midrange loads.

Bottom line is, you dont have to have it loaded to the hilt to have good load. I would definatly use the milk jugs tho. 6 or 7 should be plenty. My 30-30 stopped in the 6th at 50yd at 1850fps. You may find one bullet works good and one dont do anything but come apart. Besides that, its fun waching the jugs explode.

[ZeroJunk]

I loaded some 300 grain Noslers with a full load of H110 in a 629. I shot it a couple of times and thought it was going to break my middle finger.

I kept those in the pistol in bear country, but never shot one again.

I think if a bear is on your butt recoil will not be a concern.

[grubbylabs]

I did some shooting yesterday with mine(329 PD) I had some Gold Dot Soft Points loaded up with the minimum charge of 296(18.5grains) with a magnum primer per my 13th edition speer book and they are stiff but very shoot able. I was getting almost full penetration on a pine log that is probably 18 inches across or so. I could see the bark had come off and wood was splintering on the back side. I would not guarantee it but I think it is going to be "good enough" for bear. The log was not completely dead as the forestry had just cut it down this spring.

[Edward429451]

18 grains of 2400, which is a full power load

Which is an overmax load. You need to back it down some, that poor smith.
The book says 15.7 is max. You could go down to 14.0 and still fare well against a bear.

[rtpzwms]

The skin isn't really the issue, the spinning cylinder is. I think the recoil is enough that the gun itself can't handle it.

Wow how did I miss that! If the cylinder is spinning the gun can't handle the recoil. I think I would have it checked by a gunsmith to make sure it is "as designed" not broken then SELL it! Look for a heavy 44mag that can use the round you want to use. The Ruger might be a good choice although I don't care for them. The Dan Wesson's might be a good choice if you have a big hand and can wrap the grip. I'm sure there are others, but that one you have would be gone from my collection, I just couldn't trust it anymore.

[zxcvbob]

You might want to try 7.0 grains of Bullseye. Should give you 950+ fps (probably closer to 1000) with a 300 grain cast bullet. 6.8 is max with a 310 grain SWC and 7.5 is max with a 300 grain XTP according to Alliant.

[Elkins45]

Quote:
18 grains of 2400, which is a full power load
Which is an overmax load. You need to back it down some, that poor smith.
The book says 15.7 is max. You could go down to 14.0 and still fare well against a bear.

Alliant's own website lists 19 grains as their recommended recipe. The Speer book I was loading from lists a 19 grain load with the 300 grain bullet as well. It's not even at the load book maximum, much less over.

What book did you get 15.7 from?

[shafter]

If you flinch at the range your going to develop a bad flinch. It could cost you your life.

[Elkins45]

I did some shooting yesterday with mine(329 PD) I had some Gold Dot Soft Points loaded up with the minimum charge of 296(18.5grains) with a magnum primer per my 13th edition speer book and they are stiff but very shoot able.

What bullet weight is that?

[Edward429451]

I got it from Lymans book for thier 300 gr gc bullet. I've never seen data that high for a 300 gr bullet but if you say it's from a book, ok. I bet you're up over 1400 fps which is still too much though. You could do the same thing at 1100 or 1200 fps and not beat up you and the gun so much.

[phil mcwilliam]

44 Magnum maximum full power loads pushing 300 grain bullets fired through a super light revolver was never going to be a perfect match.
If I was relying on a 44 magnum revolver as "last ditch defence", I would settle on a load that you are comfortable in firing multiple shots.

[grubbylabs]

Sorry it is a 270 grain bullet.

[Elkins45]

I've never seen data that high for a 300 gr bullet but if you say it's from a book, ok. I bet you're up over 1400 fp

The online Alliant Reloaders guide says 19 grains of 2400 gives 1088 fps with a 300gr bullet. You can verify that here: http://www.alliantpowder.com/reloade...id=58&bdid=172

[Sarge]

Elkins,

In your shoes, I would unload that scandium 329. It was an ill-conceived design from the get go- sort of like a sticking a Honda four-cylinder gasser in a Kenworth and expecting it to pull log trailers, just because it has a fifth wheel on it. Additionally, I believe your 329 has the internal lock and if S&W's IL is going to screw up on you, it will be in a lightweight, hard-kicking revolver. Finally, you are far more likely to have a bullet jump crimp and tie up your cylinder with a flyweight big-bore, than with anything else. All bad ju-ju. Ditch it.

Get a Ruger Alaskan in .454 and be done with it. Other options for me would include a used Super Redhawk in .454, cut back to about 5" with the sight remounted. You can shoot medium to heavy .45 Colts in them and warm up to the platform. A 4" standard Redhawk in .45 Colt would also work for me.

If you're set up to load .44's and don't want to change, that cartridge will suffice with heavy flat-nosed SWC's, LBT's or Sierra's 300 grain soft point- which ain't soft at all.

Forget all this KE, ME nonsense when considering handguns for bear defense or the heaviest game. Forget hollowpoints. Bundle up some old newspapers, soak them and stack sideways them until you get a column 3-4 feet deep. When your load will shoot through 2 1/2 to 3 feet of that, you are getting there.

[grubbylabs]

Don't listen to the anti's. I think you just need to work on a load that you are comfortable shooting with it. I have shot some out of mine that were hot enough to dish the primers and it held up just fine. Granted I only sent one cylinder through, after I noticed how hot they were I quite shooting them. But non the less I think you can develop or find a load that will work for you.

[458winshooter]

Consider something in the middle of the road Speer makes a 270 gr sp and H ornady makes a 265 gr sp if you think you need more bullet mass than a 240 gr.I think that a good 240 gr either a sp or a hard cast with a wide meplat will serve you well.They will penetrate well and reach the vitals if you place your shots well.There is no sin involved in backing down the 300 gr to a manageable level either.Sometimes the best accuracy comes from loads that are not the hottest for a given powder.I for one still think that accuracy is more important than power.

[ZeroJunk]

A few years ago a friend of mine was guiding in the Bob Marshall wilderness at the lower end of Biggs Flats on the horth fork of the Sun River. He and a hunter came across a grizzly that was on an elk carcass. David was motioning to the hunter to be still, but the hunter thought he was motioning that there was an elk and the hunter trying to get in position drew the attention of the bear. The bear came after the man. David said there was 10 inches of snow on the ground and that the bear was coming so hard you could see black dirt flying in the air. The man got off one shot point blank with a 7 mag before the bear was on top of him. David ran up and was trying to shoot the bear , but was afraid he would hit the hunter. He finally kicked the bear in the side and as he turned up shot the bear four times in the side with a 44 Mag. The bear got off the man and walked away with the man's rifle in his mouth shaking it. After the hunter was determined not to be mortally wounded David and the outfitter trailed the bear about 7 miles in the snow and never found him. The outfitter sent a man down to the next outfitter to warn them of a wounded bear.The wildlife officers came in and did their thing finally deciding that no charges would be filed as they had photos of the man's bloody chewed up head, plus no dead bear.

This is why I suggest taking something as heavy and deep penetrating as is practical. If you think what you use target practicing applies I suggest you think again. I suspect flinching is going to be the last thing on your mind.

[sc928porsche]

With the S&W, you will need to use milder loads. I have seen twisted cranes and cracked cyls on them with max reloads. If you want to use max reloads, go to Ruger or Magnum Researsch.