Rossi design allow this?

angel71rs · January 17, 2014, 06:44 PM

My barber shot himself in the leg. Said he dropped his Rossi, it landed hammer first, went off and nailed him in the shin. He said hammer wasn't cocked. I immediately asked if the police believed him. He said not really, they questioned neighbors to see if they had noticed issues between him and his wife, loud arguments, etc. But they found no dirt and left it alone.

Not familiar with Rossi design, only revolvers I have are Rugers. IIRC, reviews I read on them were not good in regards to reliability or accuracy. But that pales if they can indeed go off if dropped.

BTW, he said it didn't hurt that much. I told him I'd take his word for it.

towboat-er · January 17, 2014, 07:10 PM

I would be easy to figure it out by looking at the gun. By not knowing the model, it would be hard to say.

msnden · January 17, 2014, 07:16 PM

I'm not real sure, but isn't that the reason for the dreaded "lock" on the S&W's???

Cheapshooter · January 17, 2014, 07:29 PM

Quote:

I'm not real sure, but isn't that the reason for the I'm not real sure, but isn't that the reason for the dreaded "lock" on the S&W's???on the S&W's???

No, It's the transfer bar safety that keeps revolvers from firing by dropping on the hammer with a loaded chamber under it.
The dreaded "lock" is a useless safety locked, and unlocked by a key that is there purely because of lawyers!
Don't know if the particular Rossi had a transfer bar, or if it was defective.

Sarge · January 17, 2014, 07:56 PM

It's not a matter of if the Rossi design 'allows' this type of discharge; but rather did this specific firearm discharge in the manner reported. The only way to determine that is to examine the specific gun.

lee n. field · January 17, 2014, 08:27 PM

Quote:

Not familiar with Rossi design, only revolvers I have are Rugers. IIRC, reviews I read on them were not good in regards to reliability or accuracy. But that pales if they can indeed go off if dropped.

If it has a hammer block or transfer bar, it's basically not possible. They both achieve the same end, but in opposite ways. With either of those in the design, the gun can not "just go off" without the trigger being pulled.

Quote:

I'm not real sure, but isn't that the reason for the dreaded "lock" on the S&W's???

No.

angel71rs · January 17, 2014, 09:18 PM

Talking to him it was obvious he was kind of new to firearms. Couldn't give me a model number other than it was "a 38", didn't know what a transfer bar was when I asked him if it had one. Also asked him what kind of load he had in it, all he could say was "hollow points".

Told me he was going to keep it unloaded from now on, then load it in case he needed it. Said it was ok since we live in a pretty safe city. I didn't want to come across like a know it all or like I was busting his chops, so I didn't bother to tell him why I would disagree with that.

Local community college offers a free safety & proficiency course, I recommended it to him.

Jim March · January 17, 2014, 09:35 PM

If a transfer bar, almost certainly not. *Maybe* if the action was so gummed up with crud that the trigger was held back but...I've never heard of that.

If a hammer block, well, yeah, maybe. If the hammer block breaks off, the gun reverts to no-safety like an 1873 Colt.

James K · January 17, 2014, 10:19 PM

The Rossi is basically a copy of the S&W and like the S&W has a hammer block safety (not a transfer bar) and a rebound slide. It is possible that something was not installed right or, if the gun is not new, that some previous owner tampered with the action.

The exact cause of the failure would be impossible to determine without examining the gun.

"If the hammer block breaks off, the gun reverts to no-safety like an 1873 Colt."
Not really as the Rossi and the S&W still have a rebound slide which will prevent forward movement of the hammer unless the blow is really hard.

I have investigated a couple of those "it went off when it was dropped" incidents and all I will say is that I tend to be skeptical.

Jim

johnwilliamson062 · January 17, 2014, 10:52 PM

James K, that is current production Rossi, correct? Hasn't Rossi made a range of models and designs over the years? Could it be an old gun of a different design?

bedbugbilly · January 18, 2014, 12:10 AM

Ahhh . . . wouldn't the follow up investigation by the police have determined why it went off - other than "being dropped"? After all, an individual was shot - either on purpose or by accident which the investigation following the shooting should have determined. If they questioned the shooting enough to check with neighbors, etc. to see if there might be any hanky panky going on, and that was ruled out . . . that firearm should have been checked as a part of the investigation either by a police armorer or a competent gunsmith to determine the cause for it discharging. Or am I expecting too much?

I'm not doubting the shooting . . . but if that had happened to me, and I wasn't that familiar with handguns - that puppy would be gone and I'd be looking for something that I knew was safe if ever dropped. It would be interesting to see the resulting wound and the path of the bullet . . . was it dropped? Or was he "playing" and did he shoot himself accidentally?

burrhead · January 18, 2014, 12:53 AM

"Ahhh . . . wouldn't the follow up investigation by the police have determined why it went off…"

Not necessarily, especially with a young officer. Among other things, I work as a coroner and once watched a 30 something LEO spend a couple of minutes trying to figure out how to open the cylinder of a revolver. I don't handle weapons at death scenes so I verbally instructed her on how to get it open. This is a very competent LEO but she has only been exposed to semi-autos. I think a lot of these young people, while being good at their jobs, just don't know much about revolvers. It's a training issue.

Ryu825 · January 18, 2014, 08:43 AM

A friends rossi 462 has the firing pin on the hammer. I don't know for sure but it does look like it could go off if dropped on the hammer

Sarge · January 18, 2014, 10:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Burrhead

This is a very competent LEO but she has only been exposed to semi-autos. I think a lot of these young people, while being good at their jobs, just don't know much about revolvers. It's a training issue.

No, it is not. The PD's obligation is to train an officer to competency with issued or approved firearms. Conscientious officers go the extra mile and learn some things for themselves, like how to safely handle and clear a wide variety of weapons. I also tell them if they don't know how to clear a specific weapon, for God's sake call somebody out who does.

The second worst thing that can happen is the officer looks like an idiot by being unable to perform a simple clearing drill, that anyone watching knows or can figure out. The worst thing that can happen is that the officer shoots themselves or someone else via ignorant handling of a loaded firearm.

The situation you described should never have happened under any circumstance and I guarantee you it would not happen twice on my watch.

Sarge · January 18, 2014, 11:47 AM

Doubletap. Sorry.

Hal · January 18, 2014, 02:51 PM

Quote:

The dreaded "lock" is a useless safety locked, and unlocked by a key that is there purely because of lawyers!

No - the lock is a useless hindrance and added expense imposed on the buying public by an agreement between the British owned company Tompkins PLC and the Clinton administration.

"Lawyers" had very little to do with it.
They (lawyers) were as much pawns in it as anyone else.

Several cities had already filed suits against firearms makers & the Clinton administration was on the verge of launching a series of full blown federal suits.

Tompkins PLC, the owners of Smith and Wesson @ the time, signed an agreement w/the Clinton administration to call off the threatened law suits.

IMHO - it's important we not forget why things are the way they are & who was behind these things.

burrhead · January 18, 2014, 04:07 PM

"The situation you described should never have happened under any circumstance and I guarantee you it would not happen twice on my watch."

Sarge, don't take this the wrong way. The protocols I work under are that the law enforcement agency has control of the scene and I have control of the victim. The agencies can be the National Park Service, US Border Patrol, Texas Dept. of Public Safety, the local sheriff's dept., local PD or the Texas Rangers. As long as they don't cross over into my duties I don't have a valid complaint. I don't work for them and they don't work for me.

That said, I have taken note that a lot of the younger LEOs I've been around don't have a broad knowledge of firearms. I still consider that a problem that should be addressed in better training. I guess we'll have to agree to disagree.

Snyper · January 18, 2014, 05:01 PM

According to Rossi, the guns can't fire when dropped:

http://www.rossiusa.com/pdf/REVOLVER.PDF

Quote:

The hammer is of the “rebounding” type, in which the firing pin is
thrust into contact with a chambered cartridge except when the trigger
pulled. In addition, the hammer-trigger mechanism incorporates an
internal hammer block which interposes a block of steel between
hammer and firing pin.

The hammer block is withdrawn only when
hammer is cocked, thus preventing an accidental discharge should
revolver be dropped, uncocked, and sustain a sharp blow on the on the
hammer.

Therefore, unlike most single-action revolvers, your Rossi revolver is
mechanically safe when carried with the cylinder fully loaded.

FrankenMauser · January 19, 2014, 02:26 AM

Quote:

Ahhh . . . wouldn't the follow up investigation by the police have determined why it went off - other than "being dropped"?

Based on the incidents I have seen over the years (I'm not an LEO)...
If there's no indication of a friend/neighbor/relative shooting him, and the incident being covered up; and no further injuries or threats to neighbors... it just gets swept under the rug.
There's no point in wasting resources on figuring out what the malfunction was (if it even was a malfunction

), when you can just hand the guy a citation for discharging a firearm within city limits, or let them wallow in their own embarrassment.

FilthyHarry · January 19, 2014, 12:46 PM

Scuse me, but how do you drop a gun? Does your barber drop his scissors or his clippers at work? Does he drop his food when he is eating? If so, that's OK. BUT...

Handling a gun is serious business. You have to bear down and pay attention to the gun. Handling a gun is like handling a baby... Do you think you would drop you 5-day-old granddaughter? Hell no you wouldn't. Why? Because you'd be paying attention to the max.

Leejack · January 19, 2014, 12:53 PM

Rossi uses the hammer block, unlikely to have an accidental discharge.

Crazy88Fingers · January 19, 2014, 04:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FilthyHarry

Scuse me, but how do you drop a gun? Does your barber drop his scissors or his clippers at work? Does he drop his food when he is eating? If so, that's OK. BUT...

Handling a gun is serious business. You have to bear down and pay attention to the gun. Handling a gun is like handling a baby... Do you think you would drop you 5-day-old granddaughter? Hell no you wouldn't. Why? Because you'd be paying attention to the max.

I think I can safely say a baby or two has been dropped throughout the course of human history.

kerreckt · January 19, 2014, 05:25 PM

Every Rossi revolver I have worked on had a transfer bar safety. It is possible that it may have been removed, in this case, but a quick look would tell you whether it was there or not. I should have said hammer block instead of transfer bar...my error.

lee n. field · January 19, 2014, 06:04 PM

Quote:

Every Rossi revolver I have worked on had a transfer bar safety. It is possible that it may have been removed, in this case, but a quick look would tell you whether it was there or not.

Every picture of a Rossi I have seen that shows it, shows a hammer mounted firing pin.

The question I would have would be, was there a time when Rossi revolvers didn't have internal (hammer block or transfer bar) safeties, and did this individual have such a gun?

I'm betting no. More likely unsafe handling.

Pezo · January 20, 2014, 06:34 PM

Call me Sherlock Holmes if you will by I have a feeling that gun wasn't dropped!

January 17, 2014, 06:44 PM	#1
angel71rs Senior Member Join Date: December 4, 2009 Location: TX Posts: 139	Rossi design allow this? My barber shot himself in the leg. Said he dropped his Rossi, it landed hammer first, went off and nailed him in the shin. He said hammer wasn't cocked. I immediately asked if the police believed him. He said not really, they questioned neighbors to see if they had noticed issues between him and his wife, loud arguments, etc. But they found no dirt and left it alone. Not familiar with Rossi design, only revolvers I have are Rugers. IIRC, reviews I read on them were not good in regards to reliability or accuracy. But that pales if they can indeed go off if dropped. BTW, he said it didn't hurt that much. I told him I'd take his word for it.

January 17, 2014, 07:56 PM	#5
Sarge Senior Member Join Date: May 12, 2002 Location: MO Posts: 5,457	It's not a matter of if the Rossi design 'allows' this type of discharge; but rather did this specific firearm discharge in the manner reported. The only way to determine that is to examine the specific gun. __________________ People were smarter before the Internet, or imbeciles were harder to notice.

January 17, 2014, 09:35 PM	#8
Jim March Senior Member Join Date: February 14, 1999 Location: Pittsburg, CA, USA Posts: 7,417	If a transfer bar, almost certainly not. Maybe if the action was so gummed up with crud that the trigger was held back but...I've never heard of that. If a hammer block, well, yeah, maybe. If the hammer block breaks off, the gun reverts to no-safety like an 1873 Colt. __________________ Jim March

January 18, 2014, 12:10 AM	#11
bedbugbilly Senior Member Join Date: November 19, 2009 Posts: 3,287	Ahhh . . . wouldn't the follow up investigation by the police have determined why it went off - other than "being dropped"? After all, an individual was shot - either on purpose or by accident which the investigation following the shooting should have determined. If they questioned the shooting enough to check with neighbors, etc. to see if there might be any hanky panky going on, and that was ruled out . . . that firearm should have been checked as a part of the investigation either by a police armorer or a competent gunsmith to determine the cause for it discharging. Or am I expecting too much? I'm not doubting the shooting . . . but if that had happened to me, and I wasn't that familiar with handguns - that puppy would be gone and I'd be looking for something that I knew was safe if ever dropped. It would be interesting to see the resulting wound and the path of the bullet . . . was it dropped? Or was he "playing" and did he shoot himself accidentally? __________________ If a pair of '51 Navies were good enough for Billy Hickok, then a single Navy on my right hip is good enough for me . . . besides . . . I'm probably only half as good as he was anyways. Hiram's Rangers Badge #63

January 18, 2014, 12:53 AM	#12
burrhead Senior Member Join Date: July 6, 1999 Location: Chihuahuan desert, Texas Posts: 1,148	"Ahhh . . . wouldn't the follow up investigation by the police have determined why it went off…" Not necessarily, especially with a young officer. Among other things, I work as a coroner and once watched a 30 something LEO spend a couple of minutes trying to figure out how to open the cylinder of a revolver. I don't handle weapons at death scenes so I verbally instructed her on how to get it open. This is a very competent LEO but she has only been exposed to semi-autos. I think a lot of these young people, while being good at their jobs, just don't know much about revolvers. It's a training issue. __________________ Join the GOA, SAF and the TSRA I'm offended by people that are easily offended.

January 17, 2014, 07:10 PM	#2
towboat-er Senior Member Join Date: December 2, 2011 Posts: 146	I would be easy to figure it out by looking at the gun. By not knowing the model, it would be hard to say.

January 17, 2014, 07:16 PM	#3
msnden Member Join Date: December 15, 2009 Posts: 57	I'm not real sure, but isn't that the reason for the dreaded "lock" on the S&W's???

January 17, 2014, 09:18 PM	#7
angel71rs Senior Member Join Date: December 4, 2009 Location: TX Posts: 139	Talking to him it was obvious he was kind of new to firearms. Couldn't give me a model number other than it was "a 38", didn't know what a transfer bar was when I asked him if it had one. Also asked him what kind of load he had in it, all he could say was "hollow points". Told me he was going to keep it unloaded from now on, then load it in case he needed it. Said it was ok since we live in a pretty safe city. I didn't want to come across like a know it all or like I was busting his chops, so I didn't bother to tell him why I would disagree with that. Local community college offers a free safety & proficiency course, I recommended it to him.

January 17, 2014, 10:19 PM	#9
James K Member In Memoriam Join Date: March 17, 1999 Posts: 24,383	The Rossi is basically a copy of the S&W and like the S&W has a hammer block safety (not a transfer bar) and a rebound slide. It is possible that something was not installed right or, if the gun is not new, that some previous owner tampered with the action. The exact cause of the failure would be impossible to determine without examining the gun. "If the hammer block breaks off, the gun reverts to no-safety like an 1873 Colt." Not really as the Rossi and the S&W still have a rebound slide which will prevent forward movement of the hammer unless the blow is really hard. I have investigated a couple of those "it went off when it was dropped" incidents and all I will say is that I tend to be skeptical. Jim

January 17, 2014, 10:52 PM	#10
johnwilliamson062 Junior member Join Date: May 16, 2008 Posts: 9,995	James K, that is current production Rossi, correct? Hasn't Rossi made a range of models and designs over the years? Could it be an old gun of a different design?

January 18, 2014, 08:43 AM	#13
Ryu825 Senior Member Join Date: March 23, 2013 Posts: 215	A friends rossi 462 has the firing pin on the hammer. I don't know for sure but it does look like it could go off if dropped on the hammer

January 18, 2014, 11:47 AM	#15
Sarge Senior Member Join Date: May 12, 2002 Location: MO Posts: 5,457	Doubletap. Sorry. __________________ People were smarter before the Internet, or imbeciles were harder to notice. Last edited by Sarge; January 18, 2014 at 11:48 AM. Reason: Deleted double post

January 18, 2014, 04:07 PM	#17
burrhead Senior Member Join Date: July 6, 1999 Location: Chihuahuan desert, Texas Posts: 1,148	"The situation you described should never have happened under any circumstance and I guarantee you it would not happen twice on my watch." Sarge, don't take this the wrong way. The protocols I work under are that the law enforcement agency has control of the scene and I have control of the victim. The agencies can be the National Park Service, US Border Patrol, Texas Dept. of Public Safety, the local sheriff's dept., local PD or the Texas Rangers. As long as they don't cross over into my duties I don't have a valid complaint. I don't work for them and they don't work for me. That said, I have taken note that a lot of the younger LEOs I've been around don't have a broad knowledge of firearms. I still consider that a problem that should be addressed in better training. I guess we'll have to agree to disagree. __________________ Join the GOA, SAF and the TSRA I'm offended by people that are easily offended.

January 19, 2014, 12:46 PM	#20
FilthyHarry Junior member Join Date: May 27, 2013 Posts: 222	Dropped? Scuse me, but how do you drop a gun? Does your barber drop his scissors or his clippers at work? Does he drop his food when he is eating? If so, that's OK. BUT... Handling a gun is serious business. You have to bear down and pay attention to the gun. Handling a gun is like handling a baby... Do you think you would drop you 5-day-old granddaughter? Hell no you wouldn't. Why? Because you'd be paying attention to the max.

January 19, 2014, 12:53 PM	#21
Leejack Senior Member Join Date: November 15, 2007 Location: The Alamo! Posts: 2,056	Rossi uses the hammer block, unlikely to have an accidental discharge.

January 19, 2014, 05:25 PM	#23
kerreckt Senior Member Join Date: May 18, 2011 Location: SE VA. Posts: 216	Every Rossi revolver I have worked on had a transfer bar safety. It is possible that it may have been removed, in this case, but a quick look would tell you whether it was there or not. I should have said hammer block instead of transfer bar...my error. Last edited by kerreckt; January 19, 2014 at 06:30 PM.

January 20, 2014, 06:34 PM	#25
Pezo Senior Member Join Date: February 15, 2005 Location: Vernors and orange barrels. Posts: 661	Call me Sherlock Holmes if you will by I have a feeling that gun wasn't dropped!