AK-47's: What to Look for When Buying

[Panoply]

Hello Y'all,

I've got some 'gun money' and there are three firearms from which I will be making my selection. One of them is an AK-47. I like the Arsenal AK's as they seem to have the best reputations.

I have also heard that the Century Arms Centurion 39 Sporter is an excellent AK and that it is 100% made in the USA which, besides being patriotic, allows you to add foreign parts with little risk of having your rifle become noncompliant. I know next to nothing about the Centurion and would love to know more.

Here is what I have gleaned so far from many different sources on what to look for when buying an AK. Please correct any misconceptions and [I]definitely[I] add to my knowledge base. Please, y'all, if you don't know what you're talking about don't chime in. I've already found contradictory information in other places which means someone was talking out of their ass. I'm too easily confused so keep that to a minimum and this AK ignorant guy will fare better. OK. What I think I know:

First, the type of AK I am after. I am looking for a pretty 'plain' AK. I like polymer over wood furniture, want a normal stock (no folders, etc. - though the ones I've handled have somewhat short stocks, I can live with this). I'd like to have a muzzle break or at least the option to add one. Bayonet lug desirable but FAR from essential for me. My budget has an absolute ceiling of $1,200 but I'd like to be in the $800 range. On to the info!

Polish, Bulgarian and Yugoslav AK-47's are not too bad. Solid mid-level guns. They are stamped but are stamped from thicker steel and have chrome lined barrels. There IS no Yugoslavia anymore, and hasn't been for nearly a quarter century. In other words, what the hell?

Some say the Polish rifle is superior, others the Bulgarian. Everyone seems to agree the Romanian is at the bottom of the pecking order.

Milled guns are superior to stamped guns - this seems like common sense to me, but surely if the milling is done poorly then all bets are off. So what should I look for in a milled AK? How do you tell if an AK is milled or stamped, either if you are buying online or physically inspecting one?

Chrome lined barrels are a plus, but quality high carbon steel is better yet. Once again, how do you determine whether an AK has a chromed barrel? If it isn't chromed, how do you tell if the steel is superior? This also applies to buying online or being able to inspect the rifle yourself. Everything should be answered with this in mind.

Arsenal AK's are always a good bet. They take a Saiga and whip into great shape and make it compliant. They also use cold hammer forged barrels. What are some good Arsenal models I should look for?

I've heard great things about an outfit called Midwest Industries and the AK's they import and tool up.

Some general questions: What, other than what I've already listed, should I be looking for in a receiver? Also, where should I look on a used AK to see just how 'used' it is. There are always certain spots on any gun, where are they on an AK?

Please add any and all further information to this AK newbie. As always, I appreciate and look forward to y'all's advice.

Thanks!
Pan

[TBM900]

Milled guns are superior to stamped guns - this seems like common sense to me

They are not superior, period.

Milled
+ Look prettier to some
- Heavier
- More expensive
- Often non standard parts
- Not as originally designed
- Not as many purchase options

Stamped
+ Lighter
+ Less expensive
+ Standardized parts
+ Original design
+ Look prettier to some
+ Far more purchase options
- (still waiting to find one)

Many will argue 'durability', I always ask them to show me a worn out stamped example, Ive yet to see one. In fact there are untold numbers of stamped AKs that have seen literally decades of hard use in combat around the globe that are still functioning 100% to this day. Ive personally run across many old examples in the field including very early Type 1's, while heavily abused they still functioned perfectly.

Still others will argue 'accuracy', I again ask to be shown non-anecdotal proof that one is more accurate than the other. If in person, I often show them personally owned examples of both that counter the assertion with shots down range. This in the form of 1moa examples of stamped rifles vs inaccurate milled rifles, and vice-versa. Production, barrel, and crown quality are FAR more important than receiver type.

But many rely only on emotion and perception instead of reality and say milled is better.

Before addressing anything else in detail, I would suggest you first decide which platform you want (milled vs stamped) as that will bear out upon any suggestions. As to your question about identifying them, look for rivets and the typical lightening cut.....

[Panoply]

Thanks, TBM900.

Looking at the images you provided, I do feel I can spot a stamped gun from a milled one. I like the appearance of the milled better, but if the weapon performs just as well and is significantly cheaper I'd go with the stamped one. You say thre are more options for stamped ones, but then put "-(still looking to find one)" or something like that. I don't know why it isn't letting me view my original post and your reply as I write this. Not a great feature in forum. Anyway, unless I misinterpreted I get the idea that stamped receivers are more readily available, have more choices as to style and are cheaper while still remaining quality that is at least equal to milled ones - everything else being equal. So I'd go with a stamped rifle.

Which stamped rifles are the ones to look for? And also address some more of my questions, too, please, now that I've settld on stamped.

Thanks, Very Much,
Pan

[ronl]

Check out Palmetto State Armory AK's. Reviews are pretty good. At one time or another' I've owned just about every AK variant out there, and they all worked well. Most accurate ones I owned were Hungarian and Chinese. The milled Bulgarian I owned wasn't any more accurate than the stamped, and I don't think you'll ever put enough rounds downrange to wear one out. The ones I owned were not pieced together from US and imported parts. Hard to find and rather expensive now. I would suggest spending the money on the Tapco G2 trigger. It is a big improvement over stock ones. If you want the best, save your money and get an original Valmet or Galil, or maybe wait until the Galil Ace becomes available. The Chilean army just procured the Ace, and a friend of mine who worked on the procurement said really good things about them. He was so impressed that he wanted one, but the civilian version isn't quite ready yet. It may be worth the wait.

[Mr. Hill]

I think classic firearms has saigas with the polymer stock you like for around $600 or so, one of those and a 1000 rounds of ammunition would be a good start!

[chunky_lover]

you can easily spot a stamped ak because of all the rivets



and the milled ak was originally how they were made, later it was switched over to stamped



I would just get the cheapest ak you can find, maybe 2

instead of one expensive one

[chris in va]

I had a Saiga and converted it myself. Sold it to fund an AR.

If I had to do the whole AK thing over again, I'd get a VZ 58 or Mini 14. AK's are crude and frankly take a fair amount of money to get 'modernized' with optics and furniture.

I'm also not a fan of relying on foreign ammo sources.

[silvermane_1]

Panopy, another thing that TBM900 left out about the differences of a stamped AK and milled AK is that a milled AK doesn't "normally" have a rail on the left side of receiver, where a stamped "normally" does(my Arsenal SLR-106c is stamped but doesn't have a rail). also you be better off to find a CAI WASR 10/63 or bulgy AKM to get the most for your $$$ and also stay away from any IO AKs, they have serious issues and i wouldn't consider them "safe" to shoot.

[Fishbed77]

Milled guns are superior to stamped guns - this seems like common sense to me

Nope.

Russian testing has shown the service life of stamped AKM & AK-74 receivers to be longer than that of the original AK-47 milled receivers.

[kozak6]

The c39 doesn't have an optics rail on the side. Many don't have chromed or nitrided barrels.

Many AK's are rebuilt from parts kits. It matters who does the building.

Atlantic Firearm's Polish rifles are good kit builds. IO/Pioneer's rifles are bad kit builds.

The Bulgarian Arsenals are good new production factory rifles.

Almost no Yugoslavian rifles have chromed barrels. Some are factory rifles, some are builds. Only a few models have the thicker stamped receiver. These are immediately recognizable by the "bulged trunnion".

Many of the so called Yugoslavian guns are Yugoslavian patterns made with Yugoslavian parts that were produced when the country was still Yugoslavia. Is that unreasonable? You may refer to the current production firearms as Serbian if you wish.

The Romanian rifles are at the bottom of "good enough", and the newer ones are decent. They are also factory rifles.

[TBM900]

Thanks, TBM900.

Looking at the images you provided, I do feel I can spot a stamped gun from a milled one. I like the appearance of the milled better, but if the weapon performs just as well and is significantly cheaper I'd go with the stamped one. You say thre are more options for stamped ones, but then put "-(still looking to find one)" or something like that. I don't know why it isn't letting me view my original post and your reply as I write this. Not a great feature in forum. Anyway, unless I misinterpreted I get the idea that stamped receivers are more readily available, have more choices as to style and are cheaper while still remaining quality that is at least equal to milled ones - everything else being equal. So I'd go with a stamped rifle.

Which stamped rifles are the ones to look for? And also address some more of my questions, too, please, now that I've settld on stamped.

Thanks, Very Much,
Pan

What is your intended use for it?

On the budget end of your price range I would strongly consider a QC-WASR. Century has really cleaned up their act on these and Atlantic QC adds an extra level of quality. They are still hovering around $600, are new manufacture, and a great value. At the price point you can ditch the blond stock set and pick from a ton of poly options to suit your taste and still have enough to buy yourself at least 2k of quality ammunition. I own several, from the 80's military surplus models to the new production QCd rifles, all have been as reliable as a rock, with quality ammo expect about 3-5moa (same acceptance std as an issue M4).
Stay away from the non-QCd mid production rifles, they were built by drunken monkeys.

On the other end you have a number of great options, a few I would look at....
DAKM 4150n These are built on new matching parts kits with new U.S. barrels in a custom shop setting. Simply put, they build to aresnal standards with attention to detail usually found only at custom builders, but thankfully at a price closer to mass production rifles. Mine does 1moa with M67 and GT and has not had a failure in the roughly 5k rounds I've put through it since summer. Check out the video I linked to in the other thread of Rob (AKOU) doing 1.75" off a backpack with crappy Wolf ammo.

There are a few other really good options in your price range, the Polish Premium rifles from Atlantic are pretty nice. For a bit more you can get a Legion AKM, they are rock star builds and about as close to a 'real' AK47/AKM as youll get. You're also right at the price point of an entry level Krebs, another fine builder. Arsenal isn't bad either, they were the 'standard' for years but as of late they are getting surpassed both in quality and price by builders like Difinitve Arms and a few others.

Stay away from IO and the RAS47

[smee78]

I have been happy with my WASR AK's, havent had any problems with them. I would check the sights on the gun prior to purchase if possible. I also hear that Palmetto Armory is putting out AK's now but dont have any first hand info on them. I plan on getting a few Magpul mags to try them out and have though about their stock set for one of my AK's. Good luck with your decision.

[Panoply]

TBM900: The purpose to which I'll be putting my AK to is shooting at the range and general plinking. Let me stress I do NOT compete, but do go to the range with some frequency.
I hate to ask, as it makes me feel stupid (yes, I know it's only ignorance, but the feeling is the feeling), but what is QC? I know what a WASR is, but even after searching I couldn't discover what a QC-WASR is. Please explain it to me or link me to the appropriate site. Also, what is meant by, 'non-QCd mid production rifles?'
Once again, my ignorance. No sweat finding the DAKM 4150 but zero luck finding one with that hyphenated 'N.' What does the 'N' mean?
Premium Polish ones from Atlantic. I couldn't find any that suited me except a California 10-rounder. Is it possible to put a proper magazine into those Cali guns?
Krebs guns are far out of my budget!

Ronel: I did check out Palmetto. I'm very impressed! Thanks for guiding me there.

Mr. Hill: I prefer to get the gun I will want to keep, not just one to 'break me in' to the platform.

Chunky: Nah. See Hill's answer.

Chris: I've an AR, but still want an AK.

Silvermane: I appreciate that info. While it isn't fool proof, it seems an excellent rule of thumb. As for wanting a scope mount, I don't.

Kozak: GREAT info. Going to cut and paste it to the list I've got going on buying an AK.

Smee: Thanks!

Fishbed: I almost missed you! Thanks for that info. Long service life is a huge plus, but what about accuracy? I now know that there is essentially no difference though.

Thank You, everyone!
Pano

PS: TBS900, please answer those questions. Thanks!

[chunky_lover]

you realize all ak's are the same
some may cost more because they are usa made, but its all the same stuff inside maybe some may have better barrels but I highly doubt you will ever shoot out an ak barrel anyways

I know one expensive brand has the worse paint job ever why I like either blued or parkarized finishes much tougher then paint

if you feel the need to spend 3x the amount and think its better then so be it

there is always someone out there that will take your money

whatever ak you get you really wont be able to change anything inside it without major work unlike ar's you can easily rebuild those

[TXAZ]

Your budget has a major effect on your purchase as all AK's are not the same. I've had more than 1, and some are major league ****, some are very excellent. Price is a big factor.

[Fishbed77]

you realize all ak's are the same

Nope.

Go buy an Arsenal and then go buy an I.O. so you can report back to us how wrong you were.

[chunky_lover]

all I buy are the cheap ones, they work
they shoot straight and run fine all I use are iron sights

finish is great on them too

and all I shoot is crap ammo, hits where I aim them

cant ask anymore from them

[Erno86]

You might want to check out Krebs Custom line of AK-47's. I have a first generation, Krebs Custom KTR-03S.

[DAVID NANCARROW]

Bought one of the Century C39V2 models. Wood furniture, milled receiver, black nitrided barrel. Shoots well. Came with 2 mag pul 30 round magazines in the deal. No bayonet lug. Threaded for flash supressor.

Its heavy because of the milled recveiver which you may or may not like. The recoil is next to nothing, trigger pull is pretty nice out of the box and is of the double hook design. They use Wolff springs in this model which I like.

The rifle is pretty tight for what it is, without a lot of the rattle you might find in other's products. Shoots to point of aim. I handloaded some 123 grain Hornady V-Max bullets over some H335 powder and they are significantly more accurate than the standard steel case factory stuff.

I see that Century Arms has raised their prices because of "sudden increased demand" and also state their shipping times are now longer because of it. Cabellas has them for $749 right now. Might want to take a trip over to Buds guns and check out what they have, both in milled as well as stamped models.

[kozak6]

QC is Quality Control. The AK is an old design, so there is a little more hand assembly involved in manufacture. Every now and then, a rifle is assembled crooked. For importability purposes, the WASR in particular is imported as a single stack low capacity rifle, and then the magazine well is recut stateside for the standard magazine. This results in some unfortunate variability in manufacture, but some dealers such as Atlantic Firearms will double check the gun for you before they send it out.

Milled receiver guns tend to be a little more accurate, but weigh about a pound more. It's a give and take.

Honestly, a WASR would be good enough.

A converted Saiga (Kalashnikov Concern, Izhmash, etc) would be a good option, The handguard is nonstandard, but there are some options. Pricing is highly variable since they have been banned from import, but there are still fair prices out there.

DDI makes great kit builds and offer excellent customer service. They have some polymer and Magpul options in the $800 dollar range. This might be a good option for you in particular.

An Arsenal SLR-107 would be a good choice if you want a left folding polymer or triangle stock. The SLR series are Bulgarian, whereas the SGL series are curiously expensive converted Saigas. Note that you would need to remove an optic from the rail before folding the stock.

The RAS47 and Palmetto PSAK's are highly controversial in the AK community. They feature cast trunions, whereas military AK's have forged trunnions. There are concerns about durability, but the rifles haven't been out long enough to really tell.

[Hunter2678]

I love my milled c39V2, no rattle, superb walnut fit and finish, green Mtn Barrel, nitride coated through out the gun, crisp trigger no need to upgrade, all wolf springs , accepts AKM furniture too. Shoots great. Glad I bought mine about 3 months ago for $650 off GB cuz they are at least $100 more now anywhere you look. 100% American made as well, hard to say that anymore.

[kawasakifreak77]

Avoid IO like the plague!!!

WASRs are great rifles for the money, I have two. They are 100% reliable & I get a solid 3moa from both at 100m, iron sights. They're new guns, not kits from people who have been making AKs a loooong time.

Arsenals are overpriced for what they are.

C39v2 is a decent gun but the DDIs are better for the same, if not less $$$

Saigas are nice & from the true 'motherland'. They've been banned from importation so get one now if you want one. Prices are going up. It definitely has a smoother action & better accuracy than the WASRs. I've got one in 223 for a blackout build & convert to AK configuration.

As for a longer length of pull, you can get a "nato" length buttstock thats an inch or so longer than the warsaw length.

If you want more info than you can fathom go over to the AKfiles. Be warned, once the AK bug bites its a downhill slide... I thought I'd get just one. Then I stocked up a few mags & cases of ammo. Then ran across another WASRs for good money with more mags & ammo. 7.62x39 is cheeeeeap! Stack stack stack. Then I got the Saiga. More ammo & mags.... make sure to get plenty of mags & ammo. Yugo mags lock open when you run dry & they M67 ball is known for good accuracy with an early yaw cycle in flesh similar to 5.45 7n6

Nice little upgrades for your AK: triggers, krebs safety, magpul or US palm grip, tritium sights, blue force sling.

I'm gonna get a couple underfolder kits next to build. Some polish, then maybe a 9mm plus I need a good milled gun. Lol I'm going to be broke for awhile.

[Skans]

If you go with a stamped receiver, get one that is 1.5mm or 1.6mm. IMHO, the 1.6mm stamped receivers (done correctly) are the best AK receivers available. Polytech and Norinco receivers are 1.6mm. There was at least one American manufacturer who was making 1.6mm receivers, but last I checked (years ago now), they were using non-chrome lined barrels. That's a "no-go" for me.

Some people (usually those with 1mm receivers) claim that the thickness of the receiver doesn't matter. I disagree. The stamped receivers flex and the 1mm receivers flex a lot! I can't say for certain that the receiver flexing affects accuracy - it's just that if I have a choice, I'm going with the beefier, more ridged receiver.

[Grant D]

I have a new Inter Ordnance AK-47 that I have had no problems with.

I hear that the ones made in North Carolina had problems, but the new ones made in Florida are better and have a life time warranty.

I had a WASR and was not pleased with it at all.

But... to each his own I guess.

[Erno86]

You can check out the selection of AK's, from James River Armory.