How do you define "Hoarding ammo"?

PatientWolf · February 23, 2013, 11:52 PM

Based on all the discussion about people haring ammo, I am wondering how people define that. I assume it is somewhat dependent on the weapons that typically use the cartridge. For instance a specific number of rounds of 30-06 might be considered to be hoarding, but the same number of rounds of .22LR or 5.56 might not because of the weapons that use them. The same could be said of .45LC vs .45ACP.

So if we consider a cartridges:
Typically fired from a center fire bolt rifle.
Typically fired from a semi-automatic rifle.
Typically fired from a rim fire rifle or pistol (I group these because often people have both).
Typically fired from a center fire pistol.

What do you consider hoarding?

I would start with part of my definition would be purchasing more than 100 rounds of pistol or 20 rounds of rifle ammunition that you have no weapons chambered for and never intend to purchase weapons for.

Joe_Pike · February 24, 2013, 12:18 AM

For me it has nothing to do with the amount of ammo someone keeps. For me it is someone buying and storing ammo that they have no intentions of ever using. I have a fair amount of ammo, but I continue to buy when I can at reasonable prices because I don't think ammo is ever going to go down in price. I don't get to shoot very often, so, it is starting to accumulate.

**JohnKSa** · February 24, 2013, 12:19 AM

Buying more than you reasonably need/will need.

For a competitor/high-volume shooter, 100,000 rounds (or even more) may not be hoarding given that shortages occur and during those shortages it may not be possible to purchase ammo.

For the person who fired 20 rounds last year and plans to shoot 20 rounds this year and the same next year, and so on, then 100 rounds could be hoarding.

pax · February 24, 2013, 12:36 AM

I don't believe there's any such thing, and I think it's fundamentally unAmerican to complain about other people buying stuff.

pax

SHE3PDOG · February 24, 2013, 01:08 AM

I have to agree with Pax, but at the same time, I'd have to point out that if you don't plan on using what you buy, then why buy it? I have quite a bit of ammo, but I will likely use it all this year. I certainly am not just going to let it sit around and collect dust.

PatientWolf · February 24, 2013, 06:11 AM

I had never considered a definition based on how much you will use over a given time-only in a piece count. The number that will be consumed by a person over time makes a lot more sense. Thanks.

UtopiaTexasG19 · February 24, 2013, 08:07 AM

Hoarding is when the other guy has more than I do. If I have more than him, well that's ok.

wpsdlrg · February 24, 2013, 08:18 AM

"Buying more than you reasonably need/will need."

Bingo. If you will NEED 100,000 rounds, in a reasonable length of time....then perhaps you should HAVE 100,000 rounds on hand. If you shoot 1000 rounds a YEAR, then buying up all of the 9mm ammo you can find, for example, just to keep it away from others, is hoarding. Suddenly deciding that you have to have a 20 year supply, when you know supplies are tight for everyone....is hoarding.

Obviously, the definition is a subjective thing. However, everyone understands intrinsically what their own needs happen to be....we all know our own threshold for hoarding. Getting some to be honest about it - that is another matter.

In this area, excuses abound.

Ted D · February 24, 2013, 08:47 AM

When someone goes into debt for it.I went to Gander Mountain last week the sales guy told me a guy bought all of the primers they had.He couldn't tell me how much but he said the guy used 2 creidt cards to pay for it.

jnichols2 · February 24, 2013, 09:04 AM

Some people actually think they need a lifetime supply of 50,000 rounds for SHTF -- Wrong !!!

If SHTF, there isn't going to be any ammo shortage. You only need enough for 2-3 battles. If you win, you get HIS ammo. If you lose, he gets YOUR ammo.

Keep winning, and you will have plenty of ammo. Lose, and you won't need it.

TheNatureBoy · February 24, 2013, 09:09 AM

I agree with those who define hoarding as buying and stock piling more than you need (who determines need?) or will ever use. I consider myself to be a border line "hoarder" in that I've purchased powder and primers that will take me years to use. It started out of fear, and during the last drought. I couldn't find components any where. I would visit gun shops as I traveled between West Virginia and North Carolina and if they had anything I could use (regardless of the brand) I would purchase it. Before I knew it, I had around 15 pounds of powder and over six thousand primers. That may not fit the definition of "hoarding" to some of you, but for me its excessive because I don't get to go to the range that often, and it will take me years to use 1/3 of what I have. Do I intend to stop? No! The first drought taught me to never get caught with my pants down again. The recent drought reinforced it.

overhead · February 24, 2013, 09:14 AM

What is hoarding? Frankly, I don't care. I don't care what others may think about my ammo and reloading supply buying habit and I don't really care how other people choose to spend their money.

All this "that guy is hoarding" or "that business is gouging" talk is just silly. We have a free market (well, sort of, kind of, free....it still resembles a free market...maybe) and this is how they work. I can find better things to worry or think about beyond how other people are spending their money.

ScottRiqui · February 24, 2013, 09:40 AM

Quote:

I consider myself to be a border line "hoarder" in that I've purchased powder and primers that will take me years to use.

As long as you're buying when the prices are "good", and not trying to stock up at the height of the supply/pricing craze, then I don't think that's "hoarding" at all, because you still haven't bought more than you will ever use.

Properly stored, most components will outlast the owner, and historically, the prices appear to increasing faster than inflation, so buying what you can when the prices are good makes sense as long as you're pretty sure you'll use it eventually.

RobertInIowa · February 24, 2013, 09:45 AM

I like the way Overhead put it. In time the panic will end, people with lots of ammo will quit buying and supplies will return to normal. We live in a free market people, that's the way it is.

JWT · February 24, 2013, 09:54 AM

It's in the eye of the beholder and the envious. Buying and storing ammo that you will use is not hoarding IMO. Nor is buying more when you find some at a good price.

SgtLumpy · February 24, 2013, 10:04 AM

Quote:

Pax:

I don't believe there's any such thing, and I think it's fundamentally unAmerican to complain about other people buying stuff.

^^^ This ^^^

The idea that "He's hoarding and I'm not" hinges on the idea that "My need to hoard is _better_ than his need to hoard". That's silly.

Some people own guns and never shoot them. Same with cars, guitars, surfboards, tools.

Sgt Lumpy - n0eq

g.willikers · February 24, 2013, 10:14 AM

Hoarding is when ya' buy ammo you don't particularly need and for guns you don't even have.
Or is that investing?

tobnpr · February 24, 2013, 11:25 AM

Quote:

In time the panic will end, people with lots of ammo will quit buying and supplies will return to normal. We live in a free market people, that's the way it is.

This is true...
HOWEVER... the "normal" balance of supply and demand- which seeks it's own level over long periods of time- has been SEVERELY disrupted.

Demand has increased by who knows what percentage...the manufacturers have ramped up prodution to the maximum levels they feel are prudent for their business.

I see no other scenario in that, after the hoarders get their cupboards full, they will drop out of the demand chain for quite a while- and the manufacturing/supply end of the equation will need to adjust again, just as they're doing now.

Daggitt · February 24, 2013, 11:47 AM

It reminds me of the Twilight Zone episode where the guy had a fallout shelter. When the neighbors thought the Big One was coming they all wanted in. They were deriding him for not sharing , and not being a good neighbor , etc. That's what hoarding is. When the other guy's got something you want and he won't share. Hoarding !

flybuddy · February 24, 2013, 11:48 AM

If not for hoarding we'd all be able to buy ammo, BUT, if we could all buy ammo then there wouldn't be any hoarding.
An interesting thought on the same subject, the other wild card here is the government buying up so much. With the Sequester a real possibility, this may slow down and be good news for all of us. I came across the following quote in a news article:

Quote:

Now, Napolitano presumably could cut other parts of her agency, ammunition orders, for instance.

lamarw · February 24, 2013, 11:59 AM

I have not bought any new ammunition (exept for rimfire) in several years. I reload every center fire handgun, rifle and shotgun round I own a gun for to include .410.

When the mess hit the fan, I did stock up on reloading supplies to where I have at least six months of powder and primers. Now folks are complaining about others hording reloading supplies since it is very difficult to buy primers and powder. There is even a shortage of reloading equipment.

Reloading may become the new deal or ordeal especially if the idea of special taxes on ammunition catches on with our various governments (Fed, State & Local)

Strafer Gott · February 24, 2013, 12:13 PM

Hoarding is one thing and flipping is another. I suppose flipping is rapidly becoming a felony in a few states. Unless of course you do a 4473 in the parking lot.

22-rimfire · February 24, 2013, 12:13 PM

My opinion is that if you have significantly more than you will need, then you may be "hoarding". But "need" for how long? That is the deciding factor for me. What you have is based on your finances, your interest in shooting, and I guess availability. I buy when it low priced and high priced. Dollar cost averaging = good ammunition supply.

The person who likes to shoot 22LR with their kids and has none would look at someone having a case (5,000 rounds) as hoarding because that might well be a several year supply for them. This person would likely buy one or two bulk packs at a time. They do not buy target grade ammo.

Talking about 22 rimfire ammo.... this is ammo that tends to be cached and accumulated to volumes well beyond what a normal shooter might consume shooting centerfire ammo. It's relatively cheap, normally available, and stores easily and safely. I consider it prudent sense to buy a supply ahead of the actual need.

So what is enough? When does your cache become a hoard?

The discussion may be pointless as what I think is enough and if I have the fore sight to buy it ahead of time, makes little difference to someone who absolutely has no ammunition and has limited ability to buy any.

I shoot 41 magnum and I have not been reloading. I am always thinking about buying 41 magnum ammunition and trying to find ammo that is good but not extremely costly. Hence, you build up a cache of the stuff because it is harder to replace quickly than say the more popular calibers. I have more than I would shoot in a year, maybe two years... is that hoarding? I think not.

I have enough of the promotional 22 rimfire ammunition to do me for a number of years. But I am lacking in good quality target ammunition. Is that hoarding? No, I buy it when I find it and I routinely purchased some almost on a weekly basis when availabilty was good. So, I have some.

Is my handgun centerfire cache hoarding? I think not. I try to keep at least 10 50-ct boxes available for my use. I could run through that in a month of my normal shooting.

Centerfire rifle? Depends on how much you shoot as always. I don't shoot a lot of it so a few hundred rounds is generally more than adequate as a resource. I do shoot more 223 however and that supply needs to be in the thousands of rounds or I feel like I could shoot it up in a couple outings.

Onward Allusion · February 24, 2013, 12:19 PM

Quote:

PatientWolf
How do you define "Hoarding ammo"?
<SNIP>
I would start with part of my definition would be purchasing more than 100 rounds of pistol or 20 rounds of rifle ammunition that you have no weapons chambered for.

100 rounds of pistol is 2 boxes! 20 rounds of rifle is a single box! There's no way I would call anyone picking up a box or two of ammo a hoarder even if they don't have a gun for it. I currently have 500+ rounds of 45ACP but no gun for 'em 'cause I got rid of my 1911's. Is that hoarding? If someone has a dozen Ruger 10/22's and go through a couple of bricks of 22LR in a single outing, is buying 30,000 rounds hoarding?

As far as I'm concerned, if you got the money to buy enough ammo to last a few years at the current rates, God Bless ya. I'm just glad I took up archery & edge weapons a while back.

Mike40-11 · February 24, 2013, 01:04 PM

I'm with the 'it depends' crowd. A few years back I was at the range one day with my kids and in conversation with another guy there he said something to the effect of "I'm not one of those crazy hoarders that keeps 1000 rounds of every caliber they shoot on hand". At the time, I was reloading for 4 of us shooting action pistol once a week. We just looked at each other and shrugged, 1000 rounds doesn't last long under those conditions.

But now there's only 2 of us and we don't hit it every week. I keep significantly less on hand. But I still pick up components in significant numbers. 5000 pistol primers sounds like a lot and might last me 2 or 3 years. But I got them for just over a hundred bucks and they won't get any cheaper. Now, if I kept 50,000 on hand, I'd might admit to hoarding. But if I was shooting heavy duty competition, that might only be a year or so worth.

What I like most about stocking components and ammo is the fact that, when I head to the range or out hunting, I don't have to stop and pick up ammo, at whatever it's going for now, assuming they have it. Or worse, base my shooting on what I can get. Just walk over to the cabinet and pick out some of the stuff I loaded with the components I got on sale last year. I can still do that NOW with the current shortages.

February 23, 2013, 11:52 PM	#1
PatientWolf Senior Member Join Date: October 20, 2012 Location: NC Posts: 946	How do you define "Hoarding ammo"? Based on all the discussion about people haring ammo, I am wondering how people define that. I assume it is somewhat dependent on the weapons that typically use the cartridge. For instance a specific number of rounds of 30-06 might be considered to be hoarding, but the same number of rounds of .22LR or 5.56 might not because of the weapons that use them. The same could be said of .45LC vs .45ACP. So if we consider a cartridges: Typically fired from a center fire bolt rifle. Typically fired from a semi-automatic rifle. Typically fired from a rim fire rifle or pistol (I group these because often people have both). Typically fired from a center fire pistol. What do you consider hoarding? I would start with part of my definition would be purchasing more than 100 rounds of pistol or 20 rounds of rifle ammunition that you have no weapons chambered for and never intend to purchase weapons for. Last edited by PatientWolf; February 24, 2013 at 09:56 PM.

February 24, 2013, 12:18 AM	#2
Joe_Pike Senior Member Join Date: December 30, 2010 Posts: 1,581	For me it has nothing to do with the amount of ammo someone keeps. For me it is someone buying and storing ammo that they have no intentions of ever using. I have a fair amount of ammo, but I continue to buy when I can at reasonable prices because I don't think ammo is ever going to go down in price. I don't get to shoot very often, so, it is starting to accumulate. __________________ Stay Groovy

February 24, 2013, 12:19 AM	#3
JohnKSa Staff Join Date: February 12, 2001 Location: DFW Area Posts: 24,975	Buying more than you reasonably need/will need. For a competitor/high-volume shooter, 100,000 rounds (or even more) may not be hoarding given that shortages occur and during those shortages it may not be possible to purchase ammo. For the person who fired 20 rounds last year and plans to shoot 20 rounds this year and the same next year, and so on, then 100 rounds could be hoarding. __________________ Do you know about the TEXAS State Rifle Association?

February 24, 2013, 12:36 AM	#4
pax Senior Member Join Date: May 16, 2000 Location: In a state of flux Posts: 7,520	I don't believe there's any such thing, and I think it's fundamentally unAmerican to complain about other people buying stuff. pax __________________ Kathy Jackson My personal website: Cornered Cat

February 24, 2013, 01:08 AM	#5
SHE3PDOG Senior Member Join Date: January 27, 2013 Posts: 988	I have to agree with Pax, but at the same time, I'd have to point out that if you don't plan on using what you buy, then why buy it? I have quite a bit of ammo, but I will likely use it all this year. I certainly am not just going to let it sit around and collect dust. __________________ Semper Fi Marine, NRA member, SAF Defender's Club member, and constitutionally protected keeper and bearer of firearms

February 24, 2013, 06:11 AM	#6
PatientWolf Senior Member Join Date: October 20, 2012 Location: NC Posts: 946	I had never considered a definition based on how much you will use over a given time-only in a piece count. The number that will be consumed by a person over time makes a lot more sense. Thanks.

February 24, 2013, 08:07 AM	#7
UtopiaTexasG19 Senior Member Join Date: July 3, 2011 Location: S.E. Texas Gulf Coast Posts: 743	Hoarding is when the other guy has more than I do. If I have more than him, well that's ok.

February 24, 2013, 08:18 AM	#8
wpsdlrg Senior Member Join Date: August 18, 2009 Posts: 826	"Buying more than you reasonably need/will need." Bingo. If you will NEED 100,000 rounds, in a reasonable length of time....then perhaps you should HAVE 100,000 rounds on hand. If you shoot 1000 rounds a YEAR, then buying up all of the 9mm ammo you can find, for example, just to keep it away from others, is hoarding. Suddenly deciding that you have to have a 20 year supply, when you know supplies are tight for everyone....is hoarding. Obviously, the definition is a subjective thing. However, everyone understands intrinsically what their own needs happen to be....we all know our own threshold for hoarding. Getting some to be honest about it - that is another matter. In this area, excuses abound.

February 24, 2013, 08:47 AM	#9
Ted D Member Join Date: January 27, 2013 Location: Dayton.Ohio Posts: 76	When someone goes into debt for it.I went to Gander Mountain last week the sales guy told me a guy bought all of the primers they had.He couldn't tell me how much but he said the guy used 2 creidt cards to pay for it. __________________ LIFE MEMBER OF THE NRA.GREENHORN RELOADER

February 24, 2013, 09:04 AM	#10
jnichols2 Senior Member Join Date: April 26, 2012 Posts: 191	Some people actually think they need a lifetime supply of 50,000 rounds for SHTF -- Wrong !!! If SHTF, there isn't going to be any ammo shortage. You only need enough for 2-3 battles. If you win, you get HIS ammo. If you lose, he gets YOUR ammo. Keep winning, and you will have plenty of ammo. Lose, and you won't need it.

February 24, 2013, 09:09 AM	#11
TheNatureBoy Senior Member Join Date: September 6, 2007 Posts: 1,204	I agree with those who define hoarding as buying and stock piling more than you need (who determines need?) or will ever use. I consider myself to be a border line "hoarder" in that I've purchased powder and primers that will take me years to use. It started out of fear, and during the last drought. I couldn't find components any where. I would visit gun shops as I traveled between West Virginia and North Carolina and if they had anything I could use (regardless of the brand) I would purchase it. Before I knew it, I had around 15 pounds of powder and over six thousand primers. That may not fit the definition of "hoarding" to some of you, but for me its excessive because I don't get to go to the range that often, and it will take me years to use 1/3 of what I have. Do I intend to stop? No! The first drought taught me to never get caught with my pants down again. The recent drought reinforced it.

February 24, 2013, 09:14 AM	#12
overhead Senior Member Join Date: January 28, 2013 Location: Norfolk, VA Posts: 182	What is hoarding? Frankly, I don't care. I don't care what others may think about my ammo and reloading supply buying habit and I don't really care how other people choose to spend their money. All this "that guy is hoarding" or "that business is gouging" talk is just silly. We have a free market (well, sort of, kind of, free....it still resembles a free market...maybe) and this is how they work. I can find better things to worry or think about beyond how other people are spending their money.

February 24, 2013, 09:45 AM	#14
RobertInIowa Senior Member Join Date: March 4, 2012 Location: Iowa Posts: 149	I like the way Overhead put it. In time the panic will end, people with lots of ammo will quit buying and supplies will return to normal. We live in a free market people, that's the way it is. __________________ Guns don't kill people, fathers with pretty daughters do. Two wrongs don't make a right, but three comes pretty close. Proud NRA member

February 24, 2013, 09:54 AM	#15
JWT Senior Member Join Date: March 16, 2007 Location: Southern Arizona Posts: 3,888	It's in the eye of the beholder and the envious. Buying and storing ammo that you will use is not hoarding IMO. Nor is buying more when you find some at a good price.

February 24, 2013, 10:14 AM	#17
g.willikers Senior Member Join Date: September 28, 2008 Posts: 10,442	Hoarding is when ya' buy ammo you don't particularly need and for guns you don't even have. Or is that investing? __________________ Walt Kelly, alias Pogo, sez: “Don't take life so serious, son, it ain't nohow permanent.”

February 24, 2013, 11:47 AM	#19
Daggitt Senior Member Join Date: March 11, 2011 Posts: 321	It reminds me of the Twilight Zone episode where the guy had a fallout shelter. When the neighbors thought the Big One was coming they all wanted in. They were deriding him for not sharing , and not being a good neighbor , etc. That's what hoarding is. When the other guy's got something you want and he won't share. Hoarding !

February 24, 2013, 11:59 AM	#21
lamarw Senior Member Join Date: April 12, 2010 Location: Lake Martin, AL Posts: 3,311	I have not bought any new ammunition (exept for rimfire) in several years. I reload every center fire handgun, rifle and shotgun round I own a gun for to include .410. When the mess hit the fan, I did stock up on reloading supplies to where I have at least six months of powder and primers. Now folks are complaining about others hording reloading supplies since it is very difficult to buy primers and powder. There is even a shortage of reloading equipment. Reloading may become the new deal or ordeal especially if the idea of special taxes on ammunition catches on with our various governments (Fed, State & Local)

February 24, 2013, 12:13 PM	#22
Strafer Gott Senior Member Join Date: May 12, 2011 Location: New Mexico Posts: 1,315	Hoarding is one thing and flipping is another. I suppose flipping is rapidly becoming a felony in a few states. Unless of course you do a 4473 in the parking lot.

February 24, 2013, 12:13 PM	#23
22-rimfire Senior Member Join Date: February 19, 2005 Location: Tennessee Posts: 5,323	Hoarding? My opinion is that if you have significantly more than you will need, then you may be "hoarding". But "need" for how long? That is the deciding factor for me. What you have is based on your finances, your interest in shooting, and I guess availability. I buy when it low priced and high priced. Dollar cost averaging = good ammunition supply. The person who likes to shoot 22LR with their kids and has none would look at someone having a case (5,000 rounds) as hoarding because that might well be a several year supply for them. This person would likely buy one or two bulk packs at a time. They do not buy target grade ammo. Talking about 22 rimfire ammo.... this is ammo that tends to be cached and accumulated to volumes well beyond what a normal shooter might consume shooting centerfire ammo. It's relatively cheap, normally available, and stores easily and safely. I consider it prudent sense to buy a supply ahead of the actual need. So what is enough? When does your cache become a hoard? The discussion may be pointless as what I think is enough and if I have the fore sight to buy it ahead of time, makes little difference to someone who absolutely has no ammunition and has limited ability to buy any. I shoot 41 magnum and I have not been reloading. I am always thinking about buying 41 magnum ammunition and trying to find ammo that is good but not extremely costly. Hence, you build up a cache of the stuff because it is harder to replace quickly than say the more popular calibers. I have more than I would shoot in a year, maybe two years... is that hoarding? I think not. I have enough of the promotional 22 rimfire ammunition to do me for a number of years. But I am lacking in good quality target ammunition. Is that hoarding? No, I buy it when I find it and I routinely purchased some almost on a weekly basis when availabilty was good. So, I have some. Is my handgun centerfire cache hoarding? I think not. I try to keep at least 10 50-ct boxes available for my use. I could run through that in a month of my normal shooting. Centerfire rifle? Depends on how much you shoot as always. I don't shoot a lot of it so a few hundred rounds is generally more than adequate as a resource. I do shoot more 223 however and that supply needs to be in the thousands of rounds or I feel like I could shoot it up in a couple outings. Last edited by 22-rimfire; February 24, 2013 at 12:25 PM.

February 24, 2013, 01:04 PM	#25
Mike40-11 Senior Member Join Date: January 8, 2005 Location: Missouri Posts: 842	I'm with the 'it depends' crowd. A few years back I was at the range one day with my kids and in conversation with another guy there he said something to the effect of "I'm not one of those crazy hoarders that keeps 1000 rounds of every caliber they shoot on hand". At the time, I was reloading for 4 of us shooting action pistol once a week. We just looked at each other and shrugged, 1000 rounds doesn't last long under those conditions. But now there's only 2 of us and we don't hit it every week. I keep significantly less on hand. But I still pick up components in significant numbers. 5000 pistol primers sounds like a lot and might last me 2 or 3 years. But I got them for just over a hundred bucks and they won't get any cheaper. Now, if I kept 50,000 on hand, I'd might admit to hoarding. But if I was shooting heavy duty competition, that might only be a year or so worth. What I like most about stocking components and ammo is the fact that, when I head to the range or out hunting, I don't have to stop and pick up ammo, at whatever it's going for now, assuming they have it. Or worse, base my shooting on what I can get. Just walk over to the cabinet and pick out some of the stuff I loaded with the components I got on sale last year. I can still do that NOW with the current shortages.