Going above published max loads

[F. Guffey]

there are those that talk about above maximum loads, then there are those of us that have shot over maximum loads, never know how the ones that talk about 'IT' became the experts, could be 'self appointed. I will tell you there is this .7854 thing about PSI and yield will show up in case head compression as enlarged primer pockets, enlarged flash holes, case head compression between the head of the case and top of the the web (cup), for those that do not measure before and after claim at one time case head compression or case head expansion is no longer the 'in thing' with those that are 'the in thing'. And I have said if there was something in the chamber when the trigger was pulled, beside the CUP test gage, or the STRAIN THANG or the....Wait! there is always something in the chamber when the trigger is pulled...THE CASE, but, for most that is just not good enough.

Then there are the grease your case-slide and glide shooters, I want my case to lock onto the chamber, I do not want anything between my case and chamber but air, again I am a fan of 'time is a factor'.

I have shot loads with .000 head space and came close to catastrophic failure or at least case head separation, I would not attempt that load with a military/surplus 30/06 case.

Heavy loads are not like the PARSONS MASTERPIECE, you know, nothing before, then, all of a sudden there it lay, in a heap, suddenly. It took the Parsons ride 100 years and a day to get there.

F. Guffey

[F. Guffey]

http://www.ibiblio.org/eldritch/owh/shay.html

F. Guffey

[Ridgerunner665]

For the record...since I am neck deep in this thread.

The rounds that I have pushed beyond SAAMI specs are.....45-70, 40,000 psi in a Marlin 1895. The only pressure sign you get with a Marlin is a blown up gun...the pressure isn't high enough to flatten primers or cause case head expansion (Hodgden tested Winchester 45-70 brass to 70,000 psi), I've never even had any sticky extraction...due to the generous chamber specs in Marlin rifles...PRE is considered normal, a full house load in my Marlin will leave the case swelled .006" just a little above the web.

45 Colt...behaves quite similar to the 45-70, with the exception of PRE if you have a tight chambered gun...tight chamber, very little PRE.

308 Winchester...Trying to turn it into a 30-06, same as a lot of other folks have done. I finally broke down and bought a 30-06 (brass was getting expensive)

Another thing...I once tried to blow up a Remington 700 (old beat up 308), with a 165 grain bullet and a case full (and I mean FULL) of AA2230...it didn't blow up...it locked up tight, but it did not blow up. It was a job getting the bolt open....the primer pocket was big enough to stick a 209 shotgun primer in.

[HiBC]

OP,if you are using the die instructions and bumping the shelholder,take some sample cases you have loaded a few times and hacksaw them lengthwise..Take a very careful look at the thinning of the casewall about 5/16 in ahead of the bolt face.It is probably significant after only 2 or 3 loadings.Go ahead,do it.

Let me ask,do you buy one lb cans of powder? or 8 lb jugs?Or,how about if you buy 2 8 lb jugs,do you request the same lot?

Powder gets made in batches,and there is a range of tolerance that is acceptable.Each one lb can from a different lot will perform differently.Sometimes its hot and the charge needs reduced.The powder is still to data.

Now,OP,with all due respect,if you did not already know,and practice the idea of measuring the length of your fired brass and setting the shoulder back a known amount,such as .002...

Or if you do not buy your powder in quantity,to use the same lot,

and some other factors of Murphy's Laws of Reloading,the margin of safety built into the data is there especially for YOU!!

Do you ever let a friend or brother or sister shoot your rifle?

Suppose your stretched brass fails and some hot gas scraps the eyeball of a loved one.

"No sense practicing what you can only screw up once"

Tell you what.Instead of hotrodding,drop the $120 for a ProChrono,and get a ballistic software.I use Sierra,a real old copy.

With that,you can learn how your bullet flies.Then you can amaze your friends with skill rather than "excitement"

Your barrels will last longer,too.

I really like RE-15 in the 223 Wylde chamber but I shoot 77 gr bullets.I'm thinking you could get your velocity with a little quicker powder like,oh,I don't load 55's,but H-335 might be close to the burn rate for you.RE-15 is a bit slow for a 55 gr.

Really,keep a little margin of safety.It stops being fun if someone gets hurt.

[wncchester]

"...considering breaking what I understand to be one of the number one rules in handloading - following instructions and never exceed max loads"

Not saying what I do but you'll get no encouragement from me. But if you plan to use 'flat' primers as a gage of pressure you aren't yet ready to exceed any book max loads.

[oneoldsap]

I have an over book max load that I use in my 7mm-08 . I arrived at it through normal load development . The groups kept shrinking with no pressure signs so I kept adding powder .2 Grs. at a time . When I got to a grain over max I still had no pressure signs , the bolt lifted easily , the primers hadn't moved or deformed in any way and the cases weren't showing any signs of stress . I stopped at 1 Gr. over the max in the Speer # 13 manual . I've taken several deer with this load and it's a stellar performer . I only shoot them in cool weather as that's when I use them . I try to develop hunting loads in the temps they will be used in , target loads too for that matter .

[farmerboy]

Oneoldsap I've done same thing with great results, rare but sometimes it works. Also shoot them I'n same temp also. I also shoot slot of Varget which is not suppose to be very temp sensitive. Alot of my rifles shoot good with Varget

[ipscchef]

If you handload, spend a 100 bucks and get a chrono, you cannot know what you are doing properly without one.

Willy H.

[oneoldsap]

The Particular load I was refering to is loaded with W-760 . It's the only over max load I have ever used in 47 Years of reloading ! I bought some Varget and have some test loads all loaded for the 7mm-08 and .358 Win. but haven't gotten out to shoot them yet . (arm surgery in Oct.) . I hear positive things about Varget , what's one more powder when you have 19 different ones already ?

[old roper]

I've collected reloading manuals since I started reloading 47yrs ago and they sure haven't changed on warning about loading over their max published loading data.

Best reloading tool I ever got was the chronograph.

[Brian Pfleuger]

Originally Posted by old roper

I've collected reloading manuals since I started reloading 47yrs ago and they sure haven't changed on warning about loading over their max published loading data.

True enough, but what is the real world application of that warning when we have load data from one source that maxes out below starting loads in another, or in the middle of another source's data?

----------------------

Less significant now, but given that there was a time not too long ago when a person didn't have official load data published on the internet and maybe they had 2 printed manuals. How is this person to know if they are violating some other manuals max load if they don't have the manual? They might say to some friend "Hey, I'm getting great accuracy with 41.8gr of XYZ!" (which is .5gr under the max in their manual) but their friends check the manual they use and says "OMG! That's a full grain over max!!"

Even with all the internet data, is a person supposed to check EVERY official published source just make really, really sure that they're not exceeding SOMEBODY'S data?

Assuming the load was worked up from a safe starting point, what does it mean? Not a friggin thing.

Obviously, as load levels increase, caution is always warranted. However, it makes no sense that we're always warning people to "start low and work up" because "all guns are different", "they didn't develop the load with your gun, your primers, your bullet, your cases, with your atmospheric conditions..." but then when there's a max published load it's "NEVER go over published loads!, Danger! Danger!"

There has to be some element of common sense application of principles.

[black mamba]

Peetza, as usual, I agree with what you say. But, the problem I have is when people take things to an extreme. I think we have to think in percentages when talking about going beyond book max.

I load for the 35 Whelen AI. The difference in case capacity between my rifle and a standardized 35 Whelen is about a 3% increase. That equates to about 2 more grains of powder. The difference between large and small chambers in a standard Whelen has got to be far less than that. Less than 1 grain difference in case/chamber capacity.

Now, as you approach the maximum pressure threshold, 1 extra grain of powder, even slow powder, can raise pressures 5,000 psi. That is why you see max loads listed at something like 59.7 grains--because going up just to 60 even would have been too much.

So when I see guys loading 3-4 FULL GRAINS over listed, pressure tested loads at 62,000 psi, and even chronographing them at over 100 fps ABOVE listed max, then I know that load has to be approaching, if not well over, 70,000 psi. And no differences in chamber or barrel of ANY factory rifle could ever make up for that kind of overloading. Yet I have seen such listed, and person doing so thought it was perfectly ok, because he "worked it up" in his rifle, and had no hard bolt lift. 7% over pressure tested max has GOT to be way too hot.

[Brian Pfleuger]

You are correct. There's always the problem of dealing with the "lowest common denominator", as it were.

The "Lowest Common Denominator" is the real , root purpose of the warning to "NEVER exceed max load".

Simply put, some people are dumber than a box of rocks and other people are dumb enough to listen to their advice.

These are the same people who start at max loads, or simply use loads listed by an anonymous somebody on the internet, because they figure it wouldn't be there if it wasn't good.


It's hard to compensate for those people and still have conversations of this nature "in public". There's always the chance that one of these numb-skulls will say "See, Peetza says I can exceed max loads, so it must be OK." when, in truth, that's not what I said at all. Maybe they're the type that thinks, well heck, I went over by 3.0gr in my 270WSM so I can go 3.0gr over in my 7mm-08... Except they're not smart enough to realize the difference the case capacity makes.

I've finally gotten to the point where I don't worry much about people who are too.... whatever.... to take care of themselves. If they can't comprehend written word and understand the dangers of handloading ammo, whether exceeding "max" loads or not, it's not my job to take care of them.

The warnings and proper methods are out there for the whole world to see and understand. Whether or not they do, it's not "our" problem, so long as we take proper care to post "warnings" when appropriate.

[old roper]

peetzakilla, I agree with you that each manual may have different data but each manual data is based on certain components at a given velocity at a safe pressure level from the test firearm.

All my standard calibers I never go over published data in a manual that I load from and I don't go manual shopping. I have some Ackley calibers and one special LR rifle has a non spec SAAMI chamber. some of my standard caliber rifles I could write the reloading manual with but that's a line that shouldn't be crossed.

[Brian Pfleuger]

That's another good point...

Most of us, most of the time, are not loading with the same components as the companies used to write their manuals. Different powder lots, different primer lots, or even brands, different brass and bullets...

Often, the only things that ARE the same are bullet WEIGHT and powder NAME, we don't even use the same OAL most of the time. Yet, the max loads are somehow "inviolable".

I agree with most, that it's not typically necessary to exceed a given max load. I'd even say that most of the time the most accurate load will be somewhat below max loads.

All I'm saying is that if you get there, you've got no pressure signs, you're smart about it and you're not getting the accuracy you expect... The world won't end if you step it up a tenth or two.

[HiBC]

Peetz,good points;sensible.

There are a lot of variables coming together.

A paarallel,I do not tell stories to my daughter or other younger folks about the reckless actions of my youth that I survived,and some others did not.

Most of the rifles I have built have been some kind of wildcat cartridge and I developed my own data.

I do not load so hot any more,but I used to run my 257 AI at chrono'd velocities that exceeded 26-06 and equalled 257 Wby.OK,so it did not blow up.Lucky me!!

You never know how much is enough until you figure out what is too much.

Thing is,"torque it till it strips and back up a quarter turn" does not work out with blowing something up next to your face.

There is a point where something is going to blow.The loading manuals provide us with a guideline,that is "figured out" by folks with labs,and an understanding of variables,such as lot to lot variation and a Savage vs a Rem vs a Mauser.

The loading manuals give us a guideline that helps keep us in SAAMI specs ,will give us good results,and there is a fairly broad margin of error/safety.

When we exceed max loads,we narrow that margin of safety.Maybe it was 15%,well,OK,maybe,loading hot,I used up 12%.I still had 3%,maybe,most of the time.

And,driving,we may be able to take a 40 mph corner at 65mph...most of the time.Till we find that little patch of black ice,or a deer,or a slow leak dropped the tire pressure....When we find the edge,there is a price.

So,in a rifle,hot day,our loader has a good stretch ring in his brass,and he is pretty confident this loading manual hooey is BS and just a bunch of lawyers trying to ruin his fun.3 grains over max and the groups shrank in half!!

Might try that load with these here Barnes solid copper bullets...

William Blake wrote something about like:"All attempts at foolproofing are folly,for the genius of the fool is infinite"

It is fun to pursue improvement.In shooting,I suggest there are better paths to pursue than increasing velocity over published loads.

Like,learning to shoot sitting.I tell you,something that is worth the price of a grapefruit;Putting one out at 300 yds,getting into a sitting position with your hunting rifle,squeezing one off,and seeing the grapfruit explode.

Or knowing 630 yds would be 11.2 MOA up,dialing it and getting a hit.You can do that with 2700 fps .

Or finding out burring flash holes,squaring and chamfering case mouths,and brushing out the necks really does make pretty good ammo.

[wncchester]

Dave: "..in reference to my die setting and hence shoulders being pushed back - I've just followed Lee's instructions. It says to screw in the die until it 'kisses the shellholder' and then 1/3 to 1/2 a turn more' or something like that which ive followed. Are you guys doing it differenty for those with lee dies?"

I had expected someone would address this but not so.

No die "instructions", Lee nor anyone elses, are precise guides to best adjustment; the best that can do is get ammo that will chamber and go BANG but it sure won't be the best adjusment we can do. There is too much difference in the manufactoring tolerances and strength of the dies, shell holders, press linkages and case spring back for any rote "1/3 to 1/2 turn more" to be very good.

Bottle neck cases tyically have a headspace tolerance range of about 6 thou. A full turn of a die is almost 72 thou so a 1/3 turn is about 24 thou, a half turn is 31 thou, giving us a full range difference of 7 thou right there. And that's before any of the other factors come into play.

Basically we need to adjust our FL sizers so the sized case shoulder location matches the fired location but I'm not going to do a write up on how to best adjust a FL die. I prefer to use a precision case gage such as the RCBS Precision Case Mic or a Hornady Case Headspace tool mounted on my dial calipers so I know EXACTLY what I'm doing with my sizing.

[old roper]

peetzakilla, I guess we just have different ways of loading.

Like I say "All my standard calibers I never go over published data in a manual that I load from and I don't go manual shopping". I would assume that published data is the start to max load plus velocity.

What percentage of the start to max loads could be alter with different primer/case/bullet/OAL is something the reloader can find making changes and comparing. If I made any changes I still won't load over max powder or velocity in the manual I use.

As to my Ackley chamber rifles I use start a for the parent case most time by the time I get up to a max load I've seen a gain and I may go up little or leave it.

In my rifles I've never found primer/cases important factor in accuracy vs some other things or having to be at a max powder load.

[HiBC]

Good call Wnnchester,check post 33.I strongly agree with you.

[hounddawg]

just out of curiosity what do you fellas do when your bullet is a tweener? Good example was me today with my 243 and a 87 gr Vmax.

Hogdon has data for a 85 gr bullet using 4350 powder at 37.3 to 40.5 grains and a for a 90 grain 42 grains to 44.5 grains. I started way down there at 38.5 gr and worked my way up to 42.3 before I started getting sub MOA groups and ran out of time. I figure next session I will start at 42.0 and work my way up in .2 gr increments till I hit the magic load. Watching primers for pressure signs cause that is the only tool I have to go by.

Also I was just starting to get around 3000 FPS at that load and on the website Hogdon has the max for both the bullets they list at above 3000

[mehavey]

Hornady lists their 243Win/87gr V-Max with a range of 39.8 - 43.4gr H4350.
OAL: 2.640"/Hornady-Frontier case/Fed-210 primer.

(I assume you were looking at a Hodgdon powder at the Hodgdon site?)

As to velocity, don't chase it. Go with what gives you the best accuracy in the approx 3,000 fps arena w/ tha bullet. (I've gone up to 3,500fps using that 87V-Max and a different powder, but I very deliberately dropped back to 3,050-ish as a practical/best accuracy load that didn't copper up the barrel.)

Do not rely on the primer as a pressure sign. I've hit brass/extractor-groove flow/70,000psi without any primer flattening at all.

[hounddawg]

yeah I don't have a Hornady book was going by the Hogdon Data. Velocity is secondary to group size for me also. That is why next session I am dropping back and playing with the 42.x loads in .1 and .2 increments. Gut feeling is that I find the sweet spot around 42.5 + or - .1. Thanks for the info

[arch308]

I have to agree with Old Roper. The writers go to great lengths with very good test equipment to get their load data and I won't push my guns past their design limits. I mean, if you want more velocity get more gun. Don't wear out the one you have prematurely.

[ljnowell]

Depends on the caliber and gun in question I guess. For examply because I own multiple 45acp and I dont want too hot of a load in a gun that cant handle it, I load them all below max, or just at max and tested in all of them. In the case of my 45colt, I only own one 45 colt and its a blackhawk. I load all kinds of firebreathing, earthstomping, hot loads.

[davery25]

Excellent posts on pretty much everyones behalf here. I'm going to avoid loading over the published max at least for a while.

With regards to the chronograph and velocity - Are you guys suggesting using a chrono to match velocity in the reloading manuals? I.e. if 26.5 grains of RL-15 (which is the max in the manual) gives 3350 fps where im only getting 3200, then i can work up the load to reach the 3350 - obviously checking for pressure signs along the way?

That's a good side point to note if im understanding you guys correctly - but that doesnt give me any information about the TRUE maximum loads that are still within SAAMI, i just get the impression that the manuals load data isn't close to SAAMI max pressures in order to account for component problems and the aforementioned thoughtless people out there.

P.S I like looking at load data on forums, but would never trust a load on the net no matter how knowledgable you all might be