Side-by-Side or Over/Under? - Page 3

NoSecondBest · January 30, 2015, 07:24 PM

Excellent advice BigJim. I'll add that I shot a parallel comb Beretta semi auto for several years and used to change the recoil pad from summer to winter to keep the LOP the same for the clothing I was wearing.

FITASC · January 30, 2015, 08:25 PM

As has been beat to death, FIT is what it is all about - whether you prefer the trap-style parallel comb that BigJim likes, or a regular stock with a DAH, DAC, etc. that works for you. Since my namesake sport mandates using a low gun, the ability to transition from low mount to a proper mount to hit your target is crucial. For some, that is the stock Jim mentioned while for me, it is not. Pre-mounting is one aspect, low gun totally different, and I will switch guns at times if there is a choice.
I see a lot of trap/skeet/sporting guys not try FITASC because they are afraid of the low mount and they think every shot is a million yards away. It IS challenging, and it is best shot with a gas gun or O/U versus a pump or SxS (like the way I brought it back on topic?

); but if you really like a hunting oriented challenge or to get ready for some serious hunting, give it a try.

Blue Duck · January 30, 2015, 08:53 PM

Disclaimer: I am a dyed in the wool side by side guy.

But I have owned and shot about everything. I have tried several over and unders, and I have always ended up selling them. Yeah, they are probably the way to go for the really serious clay shooter, but if you are a live bird hunter, then frankly, they can't hold a candle to a fine side by side, IMHO. The problem is there is a whole lot of over and unders that are available for $1600 to 2000 dollars but practically no new fine side by sides in that price range, so the budget mined shooter who wants a fine side by side must search the used markets for older guns, with usually fixed chokes and quite often poorly sized stocks with too much drop to fit the shooter used to shooting more modern guns. But then again I can't shoot most over and unders that well because the stocks are too straight for me and they are balanced like a fence post, but that's just me.

Also, if everyone (so called experts) of the never see-um barrel crowd, never see or aim their shotgun then why in the heck does it make any difference if the sight plane is different on a side by side? Now for me, yes it makes a difference, but I go the other direction. My master eye is on the wrong side, and I do aim my shotguns, but I much prefer the concave checkered rib of a fine side by side, and I guess I have been shooting shotguns with too much drop by modern standards for so long that I like them and shoot them best. But I don't much care for a raised rib on a side by side, although some of mine do have mild, slightly raised ribs.

At any rate, there is still only one sight plane on a side by side, not two.

I can shoot the narrow rib of a single barrel gun, pretty good, when clays are the target, but I loose the narrow rib on a fast moving quail or pheasant, and will not shoot a single barrel as good under hunting conditions, because I want to see that mass of those double barrels out there, either that maybe an old Cutts Compensator on a Browning A5 or something.

Sorry, I am rambling on, anyway, buy a gun and pattern it, see if it shoots where you are looking. If it don't, trade it for another, until you find a gun that you really like and shoots where it looks for you. Then learn how to hit moving targets with it. Sounds simple don't it. Or buy one and modify the stock until it shoots where you look, and then you can practice until you can hit moving targets with it, but if you have patterned your gun and know exactly where it hits for you, then you will have the confidence you need to move forward with you shooting.

Last word, if you want to try a side by side, then by all means do, but be wary of the cheap ones, get a nice one, who knows you might get hooked on them, and frankly I hardly shoot anything else, anymore, but that's just me.

ClayBlaster · January 30, 2015, 09:55 PM

You guys are great! Thanks for all the advise especial BigJim. I'm not planning on Competition shooting just monthly gatherings with co-workers and friends. I think an O/U is the way to go for higher scores but with that said I love the look of a SxS. Will be at Moore n Moore Sunday morning trying my luck with my Rem-1100. Never shot an entire round (100 targets) with it.

FITASC · January 30, 2015, 09:56 PM

Quote:

Now for me, yes it makes a difference, but I go the other direction. My master eye is on the wrong side, and I do aim my shotguns,

Perhaps you should try shooting from your dominant side.......

darkgael · January 31, 2015, 06:28 AM

Sighting plane?? Ye olde Parker:

BigJimP · January 31, 2015, 12:16 PM

Focus on having fun on Sunday...and being with your buddies / and stay with the 1100 --- ( and work on your fundamentals ).../ and keep a little notebook in your vest ( make notes on what you're missing on each station / and why )...

and over the next 10 rounds...over 2 or 3 months maybe - see what the trend is / but don't be in a hurry to change guns right now. Shoot some Skeet in between / and some Trap too...and make notes on those rounds as well..

An experienced shooter like our friend FITASC ...can change from gun to gun / and change his gun mount ...and get away with it. But for new shooters / or shooters struggling with consistency - that's not a great idea.

FITASC · January 31, 2015, 08:24 PM

Believe me Jim, it isn't easy, but my namesake game MANDATES a low gun. IF the gun fits, all is well; but if - like me - you gain a few pounds, suddenly you find you favorite gun doesn't work like it should a few years ago.

RobinTN · February 2, 2015, 09:10 AM

darkgael: that pic confirms it for me...too much metal for the clay target to hide behind for too long.

That's a really great photo, though!

Virginian · February 2, 2015, 02:22 PM

I shoot with both eyes open so no place for anything to hide. I have shot several rounds of skeet - 25/25 - with an occluded optical sight; left eye sees normal and right eye only sees red dot - the brain does the rest. I saw Tom Knapp shoot behind his back. He said all your brain has to do is learn the correct sight picture and it was hard to argue in the face of the evidence.

eastbank · February 2, 2015, 02:33 PM

i have shot many 25-25,s and 50-50,s since 67-68 with many types of shotguns,but only one 25-25 with a double barrel and believe it or not it was two years ago with a remington 12ga model 1900 made in 1906 with 32" steel full choke barrels. it did not come over night and the amount of drop did not help along with the beating my face took because i had to shoot high face due to the drop in the stock. i do have a browning BSS sporter 20ga thats my favorite bird shotgun(the best at trap 23-25) and a fox sterlingworth 16ga along with a just picked up a older charles daley 12ga made by mokuro,the same maker of the brownings now. eastbank.

RobinTN · February 2, 2015, 03:07 PM

Virginian-in LA: You can't beat perfect, but I am curious if you ever shoot a SXS as well at SC's or trap.

ClayBlaster · February 3, 2015, 12:15 AM

So the debate continues, I think most of you agree an O/U is the way to go for Sporting Clays but this high gun low gun is just more to think about and foreign to me. When I see guns with real high ribs I think that would be just as hard to shoot being you have the compensate for the distance between your site and barrel height. That said I would think if your shooting right to left or left to right you could adjust by switching barrels. Some of the trick would be to get out in front of the target, right? I've learned a few things, pattern, fit and technique. Was going to shoot my 1100 this past weekend but the crud said I would have no part of it. Hopefully later this week.

Virginian · February 3, 2015, 09:16 AM

I do not shoot as much as I used to, and I VERY rarely ever shoot trap. To me trap is a sustained concentration game. I can shoot a 24 or 25 not having shot it in years, but I don't think I would ever get 100 straight in 1,000 tries.
I have shot many 25/25s at Skeet with a SxS, but the last was a while ago. I have sold off all my SxSs but a Browning BSS Sporter choked M & F. It's a good dove gun, but I need to get tubes installed, and every time I go to Houston I forget to take the darned barrels with me. I definitely shoot Sporting better with an LT-20 these days.

BigJimP · February 3, 2015, 10:27 AM

Discussion continues, yes.....and if nothing else comes across - you should shoot whatever type of gun you want to shoot / and none of us on a gun forum are going to tell you not to buy another gun ...( I've weaned my shotgun collection down to about 20 guns or so ...)...1 semi-auto, 2 pump guns, a bolt action gun - and the rest are all Browning O/U's in 12, 20, 28 and .410...so I'm sure not telling you not to buy another gun....

But "Fit" is the issue here...

To tell you a story...I started shooting Trap competitively about 40 yrs ago...borrowed guns, etc...bought a Browning BPS pump 12ga( Hunter model, and I still have it )..and I shot that as my primary gun for several years / and I probably shot a few dozen 100's straight with the pump gun...( it Fit, but I didn't understand Fit )....

After about 10 seasons, I Bought a Browning Citori 12ga, 28" barrels, O/U...and I ran a lot of 25's...a few 50's ...only 1 or 2 75's...and maybe 1 or 2 100's....but I did not shoot that gun better than my BPS for Trap singles.

A few years later I stated shooting Skeet.../ talking to Skeet shooters is when I learned about Fit / and how to use a pattern board. The Citori I had ...had an angled comb ...and it didn't fit me very well / and it varied by season when I was shooting in a T shirt ...vs heavy coat and vest in winter. That was when I discovered parallel comb guns..and learned how to adust them for Fit.

After that I started winning some club skeet shoots, did a lot better in sporting clays, won - in class, not overall some sporting clays shoots, won a few state shoots in the 28ga..../ and "Fit" and a good coach were a really big part of my improvement. I kept at it for about 15 yrs...had a lot of fun...

Its now 5 or 6 yrs later..my competition days are over ...but even now that I have some vision issues / some cataracts developing, some eye muscle issues that cause some blurry vision to come and go ....with my primary guns, I can still run 25 on a Skeet field (some days, not every day out like I used to)...because the guns fit / my eyes lose a target here and there...my averages are down to low 90's / but an occasional 25 still makes me feel good / and while there is an occasional 50 still...I doubt there will be any more 75's or 100's...except as a fluke.( every blind squirrel finds a nut once in a while )....my primary O/U's are not what is holding me back.../ because they "Fit" me...and as we've discussed, 99.9% of the SXS's don't fit me without me spending a lot of money to restock them...but it doesn't mean a SXS isn't cool...its just not for me / if I want to hit what I'm shooting at ( whether its Quail, Doves or Clays...it doesn't matter )...

Figure out "Fit" ....figure out if your gun Fits / see if a SXS Fits...and shoot what fits...

Creek Henry · February 3, 2015, 07:39 PM

Th ere is a dimension beyond fit though. I got a nice sxs that fit me well but was far too light up front and therefore whippy. It didn't work well for me. The ou I replaced it with is better balanced and swing much better. Fit is important but not the entire story. My $0.02

BigJimP · February 3, 2015, 07:50 PM

I agree - weight and balance, and overall length, are factors as well....which is why I prefer an 8.5 lb gun for general shooting ( upland birds, Skeet, Sporting Clays and 5 Stand ) and usually in a 30" barreled over under

....and a 10 lb gun for Trap in a 32" barreled over under.

A gun that is too light ...will be "whippy" in my view as well...and while to some extent, you can counteract the whippiness with a little more length in the barrel ...the best combination is what feels best to you.

But if the gun doesn't fit ...and its whippy....wow, that will be a problem...

B.L.E. · February 3, 2015, 07:53 PM

Weight, in addition to making a gun "not whippy" also does wonders in taming recoil.

ClayBlaster · February 4, 2015, 12:15 AM

Great advice Big Jim and everyone for that matter! I like SxS a lot especially the CZ Sharp Tail. I think it's just a nice looking gun. Like I mention before all I've ever shot is sporting clays 12 stations 100 targets and average in the 30's. Yes I stink! But it's still fun and my hope is someday get my 11yr old daughter out there. That said I wish I knew someone who had one that I could shoot before I made the decision.

FITASC · February 4, 2015, 05:43 PM

Have you seen the Sporting SxS from CSMC?

A little expensive, but well-made:

Quote:

RBL Sporting Edition

Side by Side Competition S Series

Standard options:
• 30” or 32” barrels
• Raised ventilated rib
• Non-Automatic safety
• Adjustable comb
• Quick interchangeable recoil pad system
• Beavertail forend
• Gold single selective trigger
• Pistol grip stock
• Weight balancing system
• Bone and charcoal case hardened receiver with gold inlaid pigeons
• Exhibition American black walnut stock

Weight approximately 9 pounds.

Price- $6,995.00

BigJimP · February 4, 2015, 07:05 PM

$7,000 is not out of line for that kind of craftsmanship...but you can spend a lot more for the Krieghoff Essencia model ...or any number of fine European mfg guns / like FITASC mentioned earlier in the thread....

FITASC · February 4, 2015, 08:50 PM

The Kreighoff Essencia is a $23,000 gun

Virginian · February 5, 2015, 01:18 AM

One of my buddies has a Kreighoff Royal Crown 4 gauge set. I think he said something North of a hundred thousand. And a whole slew of other O/Us, Perazzis, a 32, a 3200, et al. He shoots everything in competitive games, even Live Pigeon.
After fighting it for a while, he switched to an 11-87 with the one I sold him in the duck blind in 1987 for waterfowl.
I sure would like a CSMC Model 21 Heavy Duck in Bo Whoop configuration (I know Bo was a Fox). But, I cannot justify the expense knowing I won't kill anymore ducks than with my Wingmaster or 1100. For a couple of grand I could justify being able to sit and stare at it during the lulls, but not that much.

RobinTN · February 5, 2015, 07:53 AM

To hit rising targets consistently, this is what SXS's need...a model railroad trestle.

Just messin' with y'all. I like all well made shotguns...period. All are works of craftsmanship and artistry. This one is bound to be HEAVY!

Dreaming100Straight · February 5, 2015, 11:15 AM

Clearly another cheap gun. The rib isn't even adjustable! (That gun probably cost what I made by best year.)

January 30, 2015, 09:55 PM	#54
ClayBlaster Member Join Date: January 25, 2015 Posts: 23	Side-by-Side or Over/Under You guys are great! Thanks for all the advise especial BigJim. I'm not planning on Competition shooting just monthly gatherings with co-workers and friends. I think an O/U is the way to go for higher scores but with that said I love the look of a SxS. Will be at Moore n Moore Sunday morning trying my luck with my Rem-1100. Never shot an entire round (100 targets) with it.

January 31, 2015, 06:28 AM	#56
darkgael Senior Member Join Date: February 9, 2006 Location: Homes in Brooklyn, NY and in Pennsylvania. Posts: 5,473	Sighting plane Sighting plane?? Ye olde Parker: __________________ “Auto racing, bull fighting, and mountain climbing are the only real sports ... all others are games.” Ernest Hemingway ... NRA Life Member

February 2, 2015, 09:10 AM	#59
RobinTN Member Join Date: January 30, 2015 Location: East, TN Posts: 17	darkgael: that pic confirms it for me...too much metal for the clay target to hide behind for too long. That's a really great photo, though! __________________ Happiness is wanting what you get. Last edited by RobinTN; February 2, 2015 at 09:27 AM.

February 2, 2015, 02:22 PM	#60
Virginian Senior Member Join Date: February 11, 2012 Location: Williamsburg, Va. Posts: 1,528	I shoot with both eyes open so no place for anything to hide. I have shot several rounds of skeet - 25/25 - with an occluded optical sight; left eye sees normal and right eye only sees red dot - the brain does the rest. I saw Tom Knapp shoot behind his back. He said all your brain has to do is learn the correct sight picture and it was hard to argue in the face of the evidence. __________________ What could have happened... did.

February 2, 2015, 03:07 PM	#62
RobinTN Member Join Date: January 30, 2015 Location: East, TN Posts: 17	Virginian-in LA: You can't beat perfect, but I am curious if you ever shoot a SXS as well at SC's or trap. __________________ Happiness is wanting what you get.

January 30, 2015, 07:24 PM	#51
NoSecondBest Senior Member Join Date: December 7, 2009 Location: Western New York Posts: 2,736	Excellent advice BigJim. I'll add that I shot a parallel comb Beretta semi auto for several years and used to change the recoil pad from summer to winter to keep the LOP the same for the clothing I was wearing.

January 30, 2015, 08:25 PM	#52
FITASC Senior Member Join Date: December 6, 2014 Posts: 6,446	As has been beat to death, FIT is what it is all about - whether you prefer the trap-style parallel comb that BigJim likes, or a regular stock with a DAH, DAC, etc. that works for you. Since my namesake sport mandates using a low gun, the ability to transition from low mount to a proper mount to hit your target is crucial. For some, that is the stock Jim mentioned while for me, it is not. Pre-mounting is one aspect, low gun totally different, and I will switch guns at times if there is a choice. I see a lot of trap/skeet/sporting guys not try FITASC because they are afraid of the low mount and they think every shot is a million yards away. It IS challenging, and it is best shot with a gas gun or O/U versus a pump or SxS (like the way I brought it back on topic? ); but if you really like a hunting oriented challenge or to get ready for some serious hunting, give it a try.

January 30, 2015, 08:53 PM	#53
Blue Duck Senior Member Join Date: October 15, 2006 Posts: 402	Disclaimer: I am a dyed in the wool side by side guy. But I have owned and shot about everything. I have tried several over and unders, and I have always ended up selling them. Yeah, they are probably the way to go for the really serious clay shooter, but if you are a live bird hunter, then frankly, they can't hold a candle to a fine side by side, IMHO. The problem is there is a whole lot of over and unders that are available for $1600 to 2000 dollars but practically no new fine side by sides in that price range, so the budget mined shooter who wants a fine side by side must search the used markets for older guns, with usually fixed chokes and quite often poorly sized stocks with too much drop to fit the shooter used to shooting more modern guns. But then again I can't shoot most over and unders that well because the stocks are too straight for me and they are balanced like a fence post, but that's just me. Also, if everyone (so called experts) of the never see-um barrel crowd, never see or aim their shotgun then why in the heck does it make any difference if the sight plane is different on a side by side? Now for me, yes it makes a difference, but I go the other direction. My master eye is on the wrong side, and I do aim my shotguns, but I much prefer the concave checkered rib of a fine side by side, and I guess I have been shooting shotguns with too much drop by modern standards for so long that I like them and shoot them best. But I don't much care for a raised rib on a side by side, although some of mine do have mild, slightly raised ribs. At any rate, there is still only one sight plane on a side by side, not two. I can shoot the narrow rib of a single barrel gun, pretty good, when clays are the target, but I loose the narrow rib on a fast moving quail or pheasant, and will not shoot a single barrel as good under hunting conditions, because I want to see that mass of those double barrels out there, either that maybe an old Cutts Compensator on a Browning A5 or something. Sorry, I am rambling on, anyway, buy a gun and pattern it, see if it shoots where you are looking. If it don't, trade it for another, until you find a gun that you really like and shoots where it looks for you. Then learn how to hit moving targets with it. Sounds simple don't it. Or buy one and modify the stock until it shoots where you look, and then you can practice until you can hit moving targets with it, but if you have patterned your gun and know exactly where it hits for you, then you will have the confidence you need to move forward with you shooting. Last word, if you want to try a side by side, then by all means do, but be wary of the cheap ones, get a nice one, who knows you might get hooked on them, and frankly I hardly shoot anything else, anymore, but that's just me.

January 31, 2015, 12:16 PM	#57
BigJimP Senior Member Join Date: February 23, 2005 Posts: 13,195	Focus on having fun on Sunday...and being with your buddies / and stay with the 1100 --- ( and work on your fundamentals ).../ and keep a little notebook in your vest ( make notes on what you're missing on each station / and why )... and over the next 10 rounds...over 2 or 3 months maybe - see what the trend is / but don't be in a hurry to change guns right now. Shoot some Skeet in between / and some Trap too...and make notes on those rounds as well.. An experienced shooter like our friend FITASC ...can change from gun to gun / and change his gun mount ...and get away with it. But for new shooters / or shooters struggling with consistency - that's not a great idea.

January 31, 2015, 08:24 PM	#58
FITASC Senior Member Join Date: December 6, 2014 Posts: 6,446	Believe me Jim, it isn't easy, but my namesake game MANDATES a low gun. IF the gun fits, all is well; but if - like me - you gain a few pounds, suddenly you find you favorite gun doesn't work like it should a few years ago.

February 2, 2015, 02:33 PM	#61
eastbank Senior Member Join Date: February 7, 2008 Location: pa. Posts: 2,450	i have shot many 25-25,s and 50-50,s since 67-68 with many types of shotguns,but only one 25-25 with a double barrel and believe it or not it was two years ago with a remington 12ga model 1900 made in 1906 with 32" steel full choke barrels. it did not come over night and the amount of drop did not help along with the beating my face took because i had to shoot high face due to the drop in the stock. i do have a browning BSS sporter 20ga thats my favorite bird shotgun(the best at trap 23-25) and a fox sterlingworth 16ga along with a just picked up a older charles daley 12ga made by mokuro,the same maker of the brownings now. eastbank.

February 3, 2015, 12:15 AM	#63
ClayBlaster Member Join Date: January 25, 2015 Posts: 23	Side-by-Side or Over/Under? So the debate continues, I think most of you agree an O/U is the way to go for Sporting Clays but this high gun low gun is just more to think about and foreign to me. When I see guns with real high ribs I think that would be just as hard to shoot being you have the compensate for the distance between your site and barrel height. That said I would think if your shooting right to left or left to right you could adjust by switching barrels. Some of the trick would be to get out in front of the target, right? I've learned a few things, pattern, fit and technique. Was going to shoot my 1100 this past weekend but the crud said I would have no part of it. Hopefully later this week.

February 3, 2015, 09:16 AM	#64
Virginian Senior Member Join Date: February 11, 2012 Location: Williamsburg, Va. Posts: 1,528	I do not shoot as much as I used to, and I VERY rarely ever shoot trap. To me trap is a sustained concentration game. I can shoot a 24 or 25 not having shot it in years, but I don't think I would ever get 100 straight in 1,000 tries. I have shot many 25/25s at Skeet with a SxS, but the last was a while ago. I have sold off all my SxSs but a Browning BSS Sporter choked M & F. It's a good dove gun, but I need to get tubes installed, and every time I go to Houston I forget to take the darned barrels with me. I definitely shoot Sporting better with an LT-20 these days. __________________ What could have happened... did.

February 3, 2015, 10:27 AM	#65
BigJimP Senior Member Join Date: February 23, 2005 Posts: 13,195	Discussion continues, yes.....and if nothing else comes across - you should shoot whatever type of gun you want to shoot / and none of us on a gun forum are going to tell you not to buy another gun ...( I've weaned my shotgun collection down to about 20 guns or so ...)...1 semi-auto, 2 pump guns, a bolt action gun - and the rest are all Browning O/U's in 12, 20, 28 and .410...so I'm sure not telling you not to buy another gun.... But "Fit" is the issue here... To tell you a story...I started shooting Trap competitively about 40 yrs ago...borrowed guns, etc...bought a Browning BPS pump 12ga( Hunter model, and I still have it )..and I shot that as my primary gun for several years / and I probably shot a few dozen 100's straight with the pump gun...( it Fit, but I didn't understand Fit ).... After about 10 seasons, I Bought a Browning Citori 12ga, 28" barrels, O/U...and I ran a lot of 25's...a few 50's ...only 1 or 2 75's...and maybe 1 or 2 100's....but I did not shoot that gun better than my BPS for Trap singles. A few years later I stated shooting Skeet.../ talking to Skeet shooters is when I learned about Fit / and how to use a pattern board. The Citori I had ...had an angled comb ...and it didn't fit me very well / and it varied by season when I was shooting in a T shirt ...vs heavy coat and vest in winter. That was when I discovered parallel comb guns..and learned how to adust them for Fit. After that I started winning some club skeet shoots, did a lot better in sporting clays, won - in class, not overall some sporting clays shoots, won a few state shoots in the 28ga..../ and "Fit" and a good coach were a really big part of my improvement. I kept at it for about 15 yrs...had a lot of fun... Its now 5 or 6 yrs later..my competition days are over ...but even now that I have some vision issues / some cataracts developing, some eye muscle issues that cause some blurry vision to come and go ....with my primary guns, I can still run 25 on a Skeet field (some days, not every day out like I used to)...because the guns fit / my eyes lose a target here and there...my averages are down to low 90's / but an occasional 25 still makes me feel good / and while there is an occasional 50 still...I doubt there will be any more 75's or 100's...except as a fluke.( every blind squirrel finds a nut once in a while )....my primary O/U's are not what is holding me back.../ because they "Fit" me...and as we've discussed, 99.9% of the SXS's don't fit me without me spending a lot of money to restock them...but it doesn't mean a SXS isn't cool...its just not for me / if I want to hit what I'm shooting at ( whether its Quail, Doves or Clays...it doesn't matter )... Figure out "Fit" ....figure out if your gun Fits / see if a SXS Fits...and shoot what fits... Last edited by BigJimP; February 3, 2015 at 01:14 PM.

February 3, 2015, 07:39 PM	#66
Creek Henry Senior Member Join Date: October 23, 2009 Location: Dallas Posts: 514	Th ere is a dimension beyond fit though. I got a nice sxs that fit me well but was far too light up front and therefore whippy. It didn't work well for me. The ou I replaced it with is better balanced and swing much better. Fit is important but not the entire story. My $0.02

February 3, 2015, 07:50 PM	#67
BigJimP Senior Member Join Date: February 23, 2005 Posts: 13,195	I agree - weight and balance, and overall length, are factors as well....which is why I prefer an 8.5 lb gun for general shooting ( upland birds, Skeet, Sporting Clays and 5 Stand ) and usually in a 30" barreled over under ....and a 10 lb gun for Trap in a 32" barreled over under. A gun that is too light ...will be "whippy" in my view as well...and while to some extent, you can counteract the whippiness with a little more length in the barrel ...the best combination is what feels best to you. But if the gun doesn't fit ...and its whippy....wow, that will be a problem...

February 3, 2015, 07:53 PM	#68
B.L.E. Senior Member Join Date: December 20, 2008 Location: Somewhere on the Southern shore of Lake Travis, TX Posts: 2,603	Weight, in addition to making a gun "not whippy" also does wonders in taming recoil. __________________ Hanlon's Razor "Do not invoke conspiracy as explanation when ignorance and incompetence will suffice, as conspiracy implies intelligence and organization."

February 4, 2015, 12:15 AM	#69
ClayBlaster Member Join Date: January 25, 2015 Posts: 23	Side-by-Side or Over/Under? Great advice Big Jim and everyone for that matter! I like SxS a lot especially the CZ Sharp Tail. I think it's just a nice looking gun. Like I mention before all I've ever shot is sporting clays 12 stations 100 targets and average in the 30's. Yes I stink! But it's still fun and my hope is someday get my 11yr old daughter out there. That said I wish I knew someone who had one that I could shoot before I made the decision.

February 4, 2015, 07:05 PM	#71
BigJimP Senior Member Join Date: February 23, 2005 Posts: 13,195	$7,000 is not out of line for that kind of craftsmanship...but you can spend a lot more for the Krieghoff Essencia model ...or any number of fine European mfg guns / like FITASC mentioned earlier in the thread....

February 4, 2015, 08:50 PM	#72
FITASC Senior Member Join Date: December 6, 2014 Posts: 6,446	The Kreighoff Essencia is a $23,000 gun

February 5, 2015, 01:18 AM	#73
Virginian Senior Member Join Date: February 11, 2012 Location: Williamsburg, Va. Posts: 1,528	One of my buddies has a Kreighoff Royal Crown 4 gauge set. I think he said something North of a hundred thousand. And a whole slew of other O/Us, Perazzis, a 32, a 3200, et al. He shoots everything in competitive games, even Live Pigeon. After fighting it for a while, he switched to an 11-87 with the one I sold him in the duck blind in 1987 for waterfowl. I sure would like a CSMC Model 21 Heavy Duck in Bo Whoop configuration (I know Bo was a Fox). But, I cannot justify the expense knowing I won't kill anymore ducks than with my Wingmaster or 1100. For a couple of grand I could justify being able to sit and stare at it during the lulls, but not that much. __________________ What could have happened... did.

February 5, 2015, 07:53 AM	#74
RobinTN Member Join Date: January 30, 2015 Location: East, TN Posts: 17	To hit rising targets consistently, this is what SXS's need...a model railroad trestle. Just messin' with y'all. I like all well made shotguns...period. All are works of craftsmanship and artistry. This one is bound to be HEAVY! __________________ Happiness is wanting what you get. Last edited by RobinTN; February 5, 2015 at 08:22 AM.

February 5, 2015, 11:15 AM	#75
Dreaming100Straight Senior Member Join Date: February 3, 2013 Posts: 1,235	Clearly another cheap gun. The rib isn't even adjustable! (That gun probably cost what I made by best year.)