Sticking cases

Hawkman · November 18, 2000, 09:38 PM

I took two different .44 mag loads to the range today to shoot in my S&W 629. Gun was clean when I started, and midway through the session I cleaned it again. The loads:

1. 300gr speer, 22gr w296, winchester large pistol primer
2. 200gr speer jhp, 11.5gr w231, winchester large pistol primer.

Brass was once fired winchester.

The 300gr load worked fine; when I fired the 200gr load the cases would stick in the chambers and I would have to punch them out. Since this ain't exactly a screaming hot load, I was puzzled. Any body know what was going on?

Hawk

WESHOOT2 · November 19, 2000, 11:27 AM

Hawk, maybe it's too hot in your gun.

And I'd suggest that maybe that 300g load should be closer to 21.3g W296 (but that's just a suggestion. There's plenty of 'smiths that can retune your 629.)

Recommend W296 for heavy 44/41/45LC loads, Universal Clays for medium loads, TiteGroup for Cowboy and light loads.

Of course, I've been wrong plenty...

Kenneth L. Walters · November 19, 2000, 01:05 PM

The only time in my life that I ever got REALLY high pressures was in a 44 Magnum revolver with loads taken directly from a handbook. Shouldn't have gotten them but I certainly did. Did you look at the spent primers to see if they showed signs of high pressure?

Paul B. · November 19, 2000, 01:43 PM

Hawkman. Your 200 gr. load is maximum in the newest Speer reloading manual. I believe I'd cut back a bit on that one, if it was me. Guns can be replaced, but hand, fingers and other body parts cannot. Maximum is maximum, and not what "is, is". I believe that the load is too hot for your revolver.
Paul B.

Hawkman · November 19, 2000, 02:04 PM

Thanks for the replys. I assumed that since the W231 loads were shooting 200gr bullets at the same speeds as the 300 grain 296s that the W231 load was lower pressure. Is that not true?

There were no signs of overpressure on the primers or brass.

I'm gonna pull the bullets on all that I have left and reload them with 296 or 110 and see how that works.

Thanks again!

Hawk

Big Bunny · November 19, 2000, 06:23 PM

Hawkman - I don't use the Winchester powders you mention, but it would appear that you maybe need to "slug" your barrel before checking your all your load data and all your measurements and equipment...also the chamber dimentions of your ?&$ pistol for imperfections/trueness and also the quality and maker of the brass.
EG...Was this from a different batch/manufacturer than the first one that was OK? What type of bullet was the 300gn? Do you heavily crimp...each the same?

I use 25gn of 2005 ADI/Mulwex(they make some for Hogden in Aus for export to US) or the same quantity Du Pont IMR 4227 for 180gn pills in my hunting Ruger 44 rifle.So I do feel you are a bit "high" - as previously and wisely said above.This load is a real "case-full" of powder for a far lighter projectile at approx 1,950 FPS and out of a locked-bolt carbine!!!

Do you have Lyman's 47th Reloading Manual or Hornady?

Start low for safety and then build up with 10% increments until the accuracy/effect you crave is satisfied.

No-one will call you a whimp on FL...I can promise you that !

Hawkman · November 20, 2000, 09:02 AM

Bunny:

What does it mean to "slug" a barrel?

Brass was same manufacturer, once-fired. Crimp is just enough to keep the bullets from moving out of the case during recoil. Should I be doing more than that?

I have the Hornady and Speer manuals, as well as a 1970 edition Lyman.

But somebody please tell me if my logic about the pressure/bullet weight/muzzle velocity intuition is right or wrong. If a 200 grain bullet and a 300 grain bullet come out of the same barrel at the same velocity, is not the 300 grain load higher pressure?

Thanks again for the continuing education,

Hawk

Chris McDermott · November 20, 2000, 01:04 PM

Hawkman your intuition is only correct if you are using the same powder in both loads. W231 burns MUCH faster then W296, so you could easily be getting higher pressures. It's called a pressure curve when you graph it on a sheet of paper. What's happening is that the W231 burns fast, producing high pressure quickly, but as the bullet moves the pressure drops fast as there is really only half as much powder, so only half as much hot gases driving the bullet. The W296 burns slower so the pressure doesn't peak nearly as fast, but you are using about twice as much so the pressure stays high much longer than the W231. This drives the heavier bullet to the same speed as the lighter bullet, with less Peak pressure.

Crimping (really "bullet pull", how hard is it to get the bullet out of the case - combination of crimp and case tension on the bullet) can definitely affect how a powder burns. This is more important on small charges of fast powders than heavy charges of slow powders, but it will affect both. I try to make sure that the bullets can't be twisted or pulled from the case by hand after I seat them, BEFORE I crimp. Then I use a Redding Profile crimp die and put a good hard crimp on the case (just short of getting brass shavings off of the case). Smokeless powders burn best at a certain pressure, with some powders being very sensitive to pressure level (like your W296, Winchester recommends not dropping more than 3% from the max load). A heavy bullet pull lets the pressure build higher before the bullet moves out of the case, so the powder charge burns better.

Slugging a barrel is driving a ball of soft lead through the barrel with a brass rod and then measuring it to find out the real smallest diameter in the barrel bore. This helps determine what diameter to size cast bullets to, they should be at least the bore size to .001" or .002" larger. With revolvers the chamber mouths also need to be measured, as the bullets will expand to fit, or be swaged down depending on the relative size. Chamber mouths that run smaller than the barrel bore usually case leading, and sometimes inaccuracy. One trick is to use the egg-shaped lead fishing weights instead of a muzzle-loader style round ball as they are easier to start in the barrel/chamber. Take a pair of diagonal cutters or lineman's pliers and remove the eyelet that you tie the fishing line to before you use the fishing weight to slug a barrel.

Hawkman · November 20, 2000, 02:03 PM

Chris,

Thanks for the reply. That is the kind of info that I needed. Better start pulling those 200 grain bullets!

Hawk

Big Bunny · November 20, 2000, 03:19 PM

I can't add to that excellent reply.

Chris...'good dope- man'!!

Keep us informed how you go Hawkman.

(carefully we hope!)

BB

Southla1 · November 20, 2000, 05:03 PM

I think that that is the problem (burning rate). The best article that I have seen on that is in the OLD Speer #7 Reloading manual. They have some great time/pressure charts in it. They show the "pressure peaks" as the bullet goes down the barrel. Velocity is not necessarily totally dependant on pressure. Burning rate has lots to do with it.

Tom Matiska · November 20, 2000, 06:17 PM

Re> 200gr speer jhp, 11.5gr w231, winchester large pistol primer....

FWIW

Winchester's own ball powder manual list the following maxes for 231: 11.2 gr 240 gr Hollow Soft Point; 11.0 gr for the 240gr Lead SWC; and 11.7gr for the 210gr Jacketed Hollow Point. All are listed as producing 38,000 C.U.P.

All of their published 44 Mag loads specify Magnum Primers.

The cautions not to use the load exactly as published (not reduce) and to use heavy crimp apply only to the 296 loads.

Their criteria for publishing loads is probably the most conservative you'll find. They test muzzle up, muzzle down, +140 F, -40 F, not to exceed 95% of SAAMI at 70 F, not to exceed 110% of SAAMI at elevated or supressed temps,....yada yada yada.... It is hard to get into trouble using their numbers.

I'd go with magnum primers and work up from 10% below their max.

Hawkman · November 20, 2000, 06:56 PM

I pulled them and am going to reload the cases with a fairly soft load (haven't decided exactly what yet, and shoot them - then I'm going to stick to heavier bullets (240 and 300 etc). The 200s were an experiment anyway.

Hawk

Southla1 · November 20, 2000, 09:34 PM

Hawkman, do not give up yet on the 200 grain bullets. I have used them extensivly in my Ruger Super Blackhawk with a load of 23 grains of 2400 and a magnum primer. The cases fall out of the cylinder after being fired and believe me that Hornady .429 XTP is DEVASTING on full grown whitetails! I have had several drop right in their tracks. The worst one hit only went 12 yerds. All shots were under 75 yards.

Hawkman · November 21, 2000, 08:50 AM

Carlyle,

I have some 2400 sitting around - I'll give it a try. Thanks for the recipe.

Hawk

Clark · November 24, 2000, 11:05 PM

I have had a similar experience with 357 mag.
I shot 22 gr H110 with 110 gr bullet. It kicked real hard and no sticky brass. Then I shot 9 gr Bullseye with 110 gr bullet, and that wimpy load made the brass stick. I backed off the load to 8.7 gr Bullseye and the brass stopped sticking.

johnwill · November 25, 2000, 04:34 PM

Clark,

Don't you usually increase your loads to see the effect on the gun? What do you think 15gr Bullseye under those 110gr bullets would be like?

November 19, 2000, 11:27 AM	#2
WESHOOT2 Senior Member Join Date: February 20, 1999 Location: home on the range; Vermont (Caspian country) Posts: 14,324	Hawk, maybe it's too hot in your gun. And I'd suggest that maybe that 300g load should be closer to 21.3g W296 (but that's just a suggestion. There's plenty of 'smiths that can retune your 629.) Recommend W296 for heavy 44/41/45LC loads, Universal Clays for medium loads, TiteGroup for Cowboy and light loads. Of course, I've been wrong plenty... __________________ . "all my ammo is mostly retired factory ammo"

November 19, 2000, 01:05 PM	#3
Kenneth L. Walters Senior Member Join Date: September 2, 1999 Location: flagstaff, arizona Posts: 477	High Pressure The only time in my life that I ever got REALLY high pressures was in a 44 Magnum revolver with loads taken directly from a handbook. Shouldn't have gotten them but I certainly did. Did you look at the spent primers to see if they showed signs of high pressure?

November 20, 2000, 03:19 PM	#10
Big Bunny Senior Member Join Date: August 9, 1999 Location: New South Wales - Australia Posts: 605	I can't add to that excellent reply. Chris...'good dope- man'!! Keep us informed how you go Hawkman. (carefully we hope!) BB __________________ Bad boys, bad boys...watcha goin' to do - watcha goin' to do when they come for YOU ?!

November 18, 2000, 09:38 PM	#1
Hawkman Senior Member Join Date: April 19, 2000 Location: Atlanta, GA Posts: 445	I took two different .44 mag loads to the range today to shoot in my S&W 629. Gun was clean when I started, and midway through the session I cleaned it again. The loads: 1. 300gr speer, 22gr w296, winchester large pistol primer 2. 200gr speer jhp, 11.5gr w231, winchester large pistol primer. Brass was once fired winchester. The 300gr load worked fine; when I fired the 200gr load the cases would stick in the chambers and I would have to punch them out. Since this ain't exactly a screaming hot load, I was puzzled. Any body know what was going on? Hawk

November 19, 2000, 01:43 PM	#4
Paul B. Senior Member Join Date: March 28, 1999 Location: Tucson, AZ Posts: 3,802	Hawkman. Your 200 gr. load is maximum in the newest Speer reloading manual. I believe I'd cut back a bit on that one, if it was me. Guns can be replaced, but hand, fingers and other body parts cannot. Maximum is maximum, and not what "is, is". I believe that the load is too hot for your revolver. Paul B.

November 19, 2000, 02:04 PM	#5
Hawkman Senior Member Join Date: April 19, 2000 Location: Atlanta, GA Posts: 445	Thanks for the replys. I assumed that since the W231 loads were shooting 200gr bullets at the same speeds as the 300 grain 296s that the W231 load was lower pressure. Is that not true? There were no signs of overpressure on the primers or brass. I'm gonna pull the bullets on all that I have left and reload them with 296 or 110 and see how that works. Thanks again! Hawk

November 19, 2000, 06:23 PM	#6
Big Bunny Senior Member Join Date: August 9, 1999 Location: New South Wales - Australia Posts: 605	Hawkman - I don't use the Winchester powders you mention, but it would appear that you maybe need to "slug" your barrel before checking your all your load data and all your measurements and equipment...also the chamber dimentions of your ?&$ pistol for imperfections/trueness and also the quality and maker of the brass. EG...Was this from a different batch/manufacturer than the first one that was OK? What type of bullet was the 300gn? Do you heavily crimp...each the same? I use 25gn of 2005 ADI/Mulwex(they make some for Hogden in Aus for export to US) or the same quantity Du Pont IMR 4227 for 180gn pills in my hunting Ruger 44 rifle.So I do feel you are a bit "high" - as previously and wisely said above.This load is a real "case-full" of powder for a far lighter projectile at approx 1,950 FPS and out of a locked-bolt carbine!!! Do you have Lyman's 47th Reloading Manual or Hornady? Start low for safety and then build up with 10% increments until the accuracy/effect you crave is satisfied. No-one will call you a whimp on FL...I can promise you that !

November 20, 2000, 09:02 AM	#7
Hawkman Senior Member Join Date: April 19, 2000 Location: Atlanta, GA Posts: 445	Bunny: What does it mean to "slug" a barrel? Brass was same manufacturer, once-fired. Crimp is just enough to keep the bullets from moving out of the case during recoil. Should I be doing more than that? I have the Hornady and Speer manuals, as well as a 1970 edition Lyman. But somebody please tell me if my logic about the pressure/bullet weight/muzzle velocity intuition is right or wrong. If a 200 grain bullet and a 300 grain bullet come out of the same barrel at the same velocity, is not the 300 grain load higher pressure? Thanks again for the continuing education, Hawk

November 20, 2000, 01:04 PM	#8
Chris McDermott Senior Member Join Date: March 30, 2000 Posts: 245	Hawkman your intuition is only correct if you are using the same powder in both loads. W231 burns MUCH faster then W296, so you could easily be getting higher pressures. It's called a pressure curve when you graph it on a sheet of paper. What's happening is that the W231 burns fast, producing high pressure quickly, but as the bullet moves the pressure drops fast as there is really only half as much powder, so only half as much hot gases driving the bullet. The W296 burns slower so the pressure doesn't peak nearly as fast, but you are using about twice as much so the pressure stays high much longer than the W231. This drives the heavier bullet to the same speed as the lighter bullet, with less Peak pressure. Crimping (really "bullet pull", how hard is it to get the bullet out of the case - combination of crimp and case tension on the bullet) can definitely affect how a powder burns. This is more important on small charges of fast powders than heavy charges of slow powders, but it will affect both. I try to make sure that the bullets can't be twisted or pulled from the case by hand after I seat them, BEFORE I crimp. Then I use a Redding Profile crimp die and put a good hard crimp on the case (just short of getting brass shavings off of the case). Smokeless powders burn best at a certain pressure, with some powders being very sensitive to pressure level (like your W296, Winchester recommends not dropping more than 3% from the max load). A heavy bullet pull lets the pressure build higher before the bullet moves out of the case, so the powder charge burns better. Slugging a barrel is driving a ball of soft lead through the barrel with a brass rod and then measuring it to find out the real smallest diameter in the barrel bore. This helps determine what diameter to size cast bullets to, they should be at least the bore size to .001" or .002" larger. With revolvers the chamber mouths also need to be measured, as the bullets will expand to fit, or be swaged down depending on the relative size. Chamber mouths that run smaller than the barrel bore usually case leading, and sometimes inaccuracy. One trick is to use the egg-shaped lead fishing weights instead of a muzzle-loader style round ball as they are easier to start in the barrel/chamber. Take a pair of diagonal cutters or lineman's pliers and remove the eyelet that you tie the fishing line to before you use the fishing weight to slug a barrel.

November 20, 2000, 02:03 PM	#9
Hawkman Senior Member Join Date: April 19, 2000 Location: Atlanta, GA Posts: 445	Chris, Thanks for the reply. That is the kind of info that I needed. Better start pulling those 200 grain bullets! Hawk

November 20, 2000, 05:03 PM	#11
Southla1 Member In Memoriam Join Date: March 19, 2000 Location: Jeanerette, La. Near the Posts: 1,999	I think that that is the problem (burning rate). The best article that I have seen on that is in the OLD Speer #7 Reloading manual. They have some great time/pressure charts in it. They show the "pressure peaks" as the bullet goes down the barrel. Velocity is not necessarily totally dependant on pressure. Burning rate has lots to do with it.

November 20, 2000, 06:17 PM	#12
Tom Matiska Senior Member Join Date: April 12, 2000 Location: Wilkes-Barre, Pa Posts: 1,029	Re> 200gr speer jhp, 11.5gr w231, winchester large pistol primer.... FWIW Winchester's own ball powder manual list the following maxes for 231: 11.2 gr 240 gr Hollow Soft Point; 11.0 gr for the 240gr Lead SWC; and 11.7gr for the 210gr Jacketed Hollow Point. All are listed as producing 38,000 C.U.P. All of their published 44 Mag loads specify Magnum Primers. The cautions not to use the load exactly as published (not reduce) and to use heavy crimp apply only to the 296 loads. Their criteria for publishing loads is probably the most conservative you'll find. They test muzzle up, muzzle down, +140 F, -40 F, not to exceed 95% of SAAMI at 70 F, not to exceed 110% of SAAMI at elevated or supressed temps,....yada yada yada.... It is hard to get into trouble using their numbers. I'd go with magnum primers and work up from 10% below their max.

November 20, 2000, 06:56 PM	#13
Hawkman Senior Member Join Date: April 19, 2000 Location: Atlanta, GA Posts: 445	I pulled them and am going to reload the cases with a fairly soft load (haven't decided exactly what yet, and shoot them - then I'm going to stick to heavier bullets (240 and 300 etc). The 200s were an experiment anyway. Hawk

November 20, 2000, 09:34 PM	#14
Southla1 Member In Memoriam Join Date: March 19, 2000 Location: Jeanerette, La. Near the Posts: 1,999	Hawkman, do not give up yet on the 200 grain bullets. I have used them extensivly in my Ruger Super Blackhawk with a load of 23 grains of 2400 and a magnum primer. The cases fall out of the cylinder after being fired and believe me that Hornady .429 XTP is DEVASTING on full grown whitetails! I have had several drop right in their tracks. The worst one hit only went 12 yerds. All shots were under 75 yards.

November 21, 2000, 08:50 AM	#15
Hawkman Senior Member Join Date: April 19, 2000 Location: Atlanta, GA Posts: 445	Carlyle, I have some 2400 sitting around - I'll give it a try. Thanks for the recipe. Hawk

November 24, 2000, 11:05 PM	#16
Clark Senior Member Join Date: December 4, 1999 Location: WA, the ever blue state Posts: 4,678	I have had a similar experience with 357 mag. I shot 22 gr H110 with 110 gr bullet. It kicked real hard and no sticky brass. Then I shot 9 gr Bullseye with 110 gr bullet, and that wimpy load made the brass stick. I backed off the load to 8.7 gr Bullseye and the brass stopped sticking.

November 25, 2000, 04:34 PM	#17
johnwill Senior Member Join Date: April 6, 2000 Location: PA Posts: 3,451	Clark, Don't you usually increase your loads to see the effect on the gun? What do you think 15gr Bullseye under those 110gr bullets would be like?