The Firing Line Forums

Go Back   The Firing Line Forums > The Skunkworks > Handloading, Reloading, and Bullet Casting

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old June 24, 2014, 06:10 PM   #1
FLChinook
Senior Member
 
Join Date: September 9, 2012
Location: Texas
Posts: 378
Why doesn't Berger designate "Most Accurate Loads"???

I just acquired a beautiful pre-Garcia Sako 7mm Rem Mag and want to test its accuracy with some Berger 168-gr VLDs. I have the Berger reloading manual that gives reloading data for 9 powders for this bullet. So lets's see, to determine the most accurate load for a given powder/bullet, you're supposed to start at the minimum load and work your way up in increments of 1-gr. For a 6-grain range between min and max, I would need to load 54x3 or 162 rounds to get a full set of data (3 shot groups), that, by the way, Berger probably already has.

It would be so simple for Berger to put an * by the powder they found to be most accurate (I know, I know, might be different for my gun but at least it would be a starting point) and then also to designate whether min or max loads performed best for a particular powder.

When I call them. they're very helpful but they would not give me this information. Why, oh why....??

Nosler only gives data on 3 powders for their 168 grain bullets (I have none of them) but more data on their 160 grain. This includes data for IMR 4350 and 4831 (max loads most accurate for these) and RL22 (min load best here).

I have those three powders so will start with each of their minimum loads.

Can anyone's experience guide me better than this?

Thanks
FLChinook is offline  
Old June 24, 2014, 06:27 PM   #2
pathdoc
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 12, 2013
Posts: 669
It depends on what you're loading for, and what powders you have access to.

When I started out target shooting, received wisdom was to start with the powder that most filled the case, which generally equates to the slowest listed for that case/bullet/primer combination.

This would be my advice for the Bergers. Start with the slowest powder you've got right now that they list, and work from there. Work out what you're trying to shoot at what distance, and stop when you get a group which is of an acceptable size to get the job done with some margin for error. Obviously if you're target shooting, there IS no acceptable minimum size, but hunting is different, and from the sound of the cartridge you're probably not looking for half-MOA to kill woodchucks.
pathdoc is offline  
Old June 24, 2014, 06:57 PM   #3
Mike / Tx
Senior Member
 
Join Date: April 8, 2000
Posts: 2,101
Well like you yourself mentioned what worked in their "test" barrel may or may not work in your new rifle. With loading you can change the seating depth and go from good to gawd awful, in a heart beat or the other way around all with the same powder.

It might be easier for us to help your out a bit if you listed what powders you DO have and that would be a start.

In my Sendero, RL19 and 22 has worked wonders with 165gr bullets, and so has Ramshot Big Game and Magnum. I usually use Federal 215's but have also used the standard Winchester WLR's and gotten great accuracy from both.

There was a common belief that the Berger bullets like or needed to be seated into the lands for best performance but this simply isn't so. My friend is shooting the 185's out of his RUM seated .105" back and getting totally awesome groups at 300yds.

So you might end up playing with them a bit till you find something that looks good then tweak the seating depth some and see what happens.
__________________
LAter,
Mike / TX
Mike / Tx is offline  
Old June 24, 2014, 08:32 PM   #4
Jimro
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 18, 2006
Posts: 7,097
Mike / Tx,

Not all Berger bullets are the same. The 185 Juggernauts are jump insensitive because all of Berger's "Tactical" line use tangent or hybrid ogives, essentially giving them the same "bullet to bore" interface as Sierra.

When you get to Berger's secant ogive VLD offerings, jump the lands becomes much more important.

So depending on what bullet you are working with jump to the lands can be very important, or not an issue at all.

Jimro
__________________
Machine guns are awesome until you have to carry one.
Jimro is offline  
Old June 24, 2014, 09:14 PM   #5
jmr40
Senior Member
 
Join Date: June 15, 2008
Location: Georgia
Posts: 10,792
You answered your own question.

Quote:
(I know, I know, might be different for my gun
I know some manufacturers provide that info but I find it useless. Just because it was the most accurate in their test barrel does not mean anything in my gun.
jmr40 is offline  
Old June 24, 2014, 11:09 PM   #6
FLChinook
Senior Member
 
Join Date: September 9, 2012
Location: Texas
Posts: 378
Thanks to all who replied. I should have said my Bergers were VLD Hunting. This will be my new elk rifle (assuming it shoots OK) but I shoot 200 rounds at the range for every round fired in the field (maybe more) so the search for accuracy and the search for nirvana are one in the same...

BTW, I used to use Federal 215s but have not been able to buy them in so long I've finally given up and switched to CCI 250s - which I've found to be a reasonable second-best and I can usually find them.

I had a Winchester primer fall out of a loaded cartridge onto the tailgate of our truck at last year's elk hunt. I notified Winchester and sent them the offending primer and cartridge (Norma brass) and the rest of the primers in that box. Winchester declared everything was within spec. I'm sure that's the case, but I can guarantee you, nothing gets your attention like seeing a primer on your truck's tailgate at 4 in the morning on one of your precious few days of elk hunting.
FLChinook is offline  
Old June 25, 2014, 08:50 AM   #7
Longshot4
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 22, 2014
Posts: 868
FLChnook I could be wrong. I've been wrong before. I know what it feels like. So You have a 7 mm Mag. One of those hyper velocity med. weight bullets and you want to go elk hunting and make a spectacular shot. Oh and you want to use your reloads. I think I can understand that. If I'm not wrong. I bet those cases are getting beat up. The extreme pressures of that cartridge can be causing the primer pockets to change shape. I have two suggestions. 1) Look up Barns Bullets on the internet and purchase a box of their 7mm Mag. ammo. Or Get your self a heavier Elk rifle like a 338Win.Mag. If you continue shooting animals with that 7mm you will continue wasting meet.
Use a 8Lb. sludge hammer to break large rocks not a 24 Oz. ballpeen hammer.
Don't shoot 600 Yds. just because the target is big. I hope I was able to help.
Good Luck with your Elk hunt.
Longshot4 is offline  
Old June 25, 2014, 08:58 AM   #8
old roper
Senior Member
 
Join Date: June 11, 2007
Posts: 2,155
FLChinook, I hate to say this but Berger does have powders that they rec if you care to read introduction for the 7mag on page 625. IMR-4831,H-4831,R-22 and R-25. You may want to look at page 628 also there is another 8 loads listed for 168gr bullets so you have total 17 loads.

Seating depth you may want to read page 99 thru 101 they go into detail on finding sweet spot and how to load for it and it could be from .010 to .130 off the land.

As far as test barrel all loads listed they either use 24" or 26" barrel. Myself I start .050 off the land.
__________________
Semper Fi
Vietnam 1965
VFW Life member
NRA Life Member
old roper is offline  
Old June 25, 2014, 09:02 AM   #9
Mike / Tx
Senior Member
 
Join Date: April 8, 2000
Posts: 2,101
Quote:
Not all Berger bullets are the same. The 185 Juggernauts are jump insensitive because all of Berger's "Tactical" line use tangent or hybrid ogives, essentially giving them the same "bullet to bore" interface as Sierra.

When you get to Berger's secant ogive VLD offerings, jump the lands becomes much more important.

So depending on what bullet you are working with jump to the lands can be very important, or not an issue at all.
Granted not all Bergers are made the same, but the same principles effect them all no mater what the style. Any or all of them can, and most will find do, have more than one sweet spot so to speak for a seating depth regardless of the style. I have proven it to myself as well as my friend who I mentioned above with his RUM shooting the 185gr VLD.

For target shooters it isn't important for the rounds to fit a magazine, for a hunting rifle it is entirely beneficial for most to fit and chamber reliably. You have to seat the bullet regardless of VLD or RNSP to fit the magazine, and in most cases this simply isn't going to allow the touching of the lands to happen. In a custom built rifle chambered for a specific bullet all day long, but not in a production stock rifle.

I stand by what I posted 100% no matter what your intended use is, whether target or hunting, adjusting the seating depth can and does in most cases shrink or spread groups. I will also back up my statement with the following, Optimizing Precision And Accuracy From VLD Bullets
By Eric Stecker


If you feel you know more about those bullets than the manufacturer, then feel free to contact and discuss it with Eric. He is a great fellow and well versed in the design and uses of them.
__________________
LAter,
Mike / TX
Mike / Tx is offline  
Old June 25, 2014, 10:04 AM   #10
FLChinook
Senior Member
 
Join Date: September 9, 2012
Location: Texas
Posts: 378
Quote:
Get your self a heavier Elk rifle like a 338Win.Mag.
This is OT but I had a 338WM that I could not shoot because of the recoil (I do not use brakes). Last year, I was using a 300 Win Mag (this cartridge had the dropped primer) but I'm finding this gun uncomfortable to shoot as well (although not nearly as uncomfortable as the 338!!). I've had 3 rotator cuff surgeries on my right shoulder and I'm getting more and more protective...

I'm dropping down to the 7mm Rem Mag to reduce recoil; this has nothing to do with wanting to make a spectacular long shot... although one would certainly be nice :-)

Quote:
I hate to say this but Berger does have powders that they rec if you care to read introduction for the 7mag on page 625. IMR-4831,H-4831,R-22 and R-25. You may want to look at page 628 also there is another 8 loads listed for 168gr bullets so you have total 17 loads.
Thanks. I saw the comments on page 625 but I missed the other 8 loads on page 628. Awk... Berger recommends slower powders (both 4831's, RE22 & 25) for hunting but "faster powders like the two 4350's... for best accuracy". One thing Berger does that's helpful is to list powders in decreasing speeds. So the loads on page 628 are the slowest 8 powders of the powders they list.

I just wonder, what do you get from the slower powders that makes a load better for hunting if it's less accurate?
FLChinook is offline  
Old June 25, 2014, 11:56 AM   #11
savagelover
Senior Member
 
Join Date: March 5, 2011
Location: Alpine,,NY
Posts: 254
If the recoil bothers you,why not go 7mm08 ? or something in that order..I have seen elk kilt with 223 and 2506 befor....I fail to see why a big,big gun is needed if you know how to shoot...
savagelover is offline  
Old June 25, 2014, 12:24 PM   #12
FLChinook
Senior Member
 
Join Date: September 9, 2012
Location: Texas
Posts: 378
Quote:
If the recoil bothers you,why not go 7mm08?
Hmmm. OT but a reasonable question. Once you choose a 7mm, the next issue is which one. There are many and many are good. I opted for the Rem Mag because it seemed to be the most versatile; I can hand load heavier loads when I need more power or I can hand load lighter loads for the majority to time when I'm just punching holes in paper. But there's probably as many opinions on the 7mm as there are readers of this forum...
FLChinook is offline  
Old June 25, 2014, 03:03 PM   #13
Jimro
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 18, 2006
Posts: 7,097
Mike / Tx,

You wrote:

Quote:
There was a common belief that the Berger bullets like or needed to be seated into the lands for best performance but this simply isn't so. My friend is shooting the 185's out of his RUM seated .105" back and getting totally awesome groups at 300yds.
I simply stated that some of Berger's offerings are not jump sensitive such as their Tangent and Hybrid ogive offerings, and that their secants VLD line was jump sensitive. The 185 OTMs you mentioned were designed to specifically be insensitive to jump, so I do not think that your friends experience shooting them should be used as any sort of proof that Berger bullets don't care about seating depth because he is loading a non VLD bullet that far off the lands.

I did not write anywhere that seating depth was unimportant to accuracy, or that I knew more about Berger's bullets than Berger employees, which you implied when you wrote:
Quote:
I stand by what I posted 100% no matter what your intended use is, whether target or hunting, adjusting the seating depth can and does in most cases shrink or spread groups. I will also back up my statement with the following, Optimizing Precision And Accuracy From VLD Bullets
By Eric Stecker
I appreciate you linking to Berger's Tips, but lets not forget the caveat at the beginning:
Quote:
Interestingly, while VLDs commonly work best seated into the rifling .010″ or more, Berger’s research indicates that, in some rifles, VLDs perform well jumped .040″ or more. This is a significant finding, one that’s backed-up by real-world testing by many shooters. http://bulletin.accurateshooter.com/...g-vld-bullets/
But I would like to point out that the "accuracy band" of 0.030 to 0.040" where the VLD "sweet spot" resides is pretty "narrow" which is why Berger started offering non Secant ogive bullets, to make a "broader" seating depth band where accuracy is still very good. If you want to contact Bryan Litz or Eric Strecker yourself, I'm sure you can have a long and fruitful conversation about the bullet to rifling interface and how to get the most accuracy from a given setup.

You can read more about Berger ogive profiles here: http://bulletin.accurateshooter.com/...-need-to-know/

But I'm sure that FLChinook can benefit from doing a load workup with Berger's seating depth test to find the most accurate load for his VLDs.

Jimro
__________________
Machine guns are awesome until you have to carry one.
Jimro is offline  
Old June 25, 2014, 03:26 PM   #14
FLChinook
Senior Member
 
Join Date: September 9, 2012
Location: Texas
Posts: 378
I've never been able to test the need for land seating with Berger bullets because the only rifles I used with them (until now) have been Weatherby Mark Vs... which have throats long enough to hide of covey of quail. I may have to invest in that nifty little tool that makes the throat measurement for my 7mm
FLChinook is offline  
Old June 25, 2014, 06:53 PM   #15
hooligan1
Senior Member
 
Join Date: July 18, 2010
Location: Independence Missouri
Posts: 4,582
168 VLDS

I'm currently working on those particular bullets in my 26" model 70, and I'm at .100 off lands and gettin tighter groups but still way out of form.
This rifle does nicely with 160 grain bullets,, just not got it figured out as of yet. I have a good selection of powders, but havent landed positive results...although I shot a three rnd group and two were in X ring in bull at 100 yds.
Im using IMR 7828. right now and I will try H1000 before givin up on this bullet....

I feel ya brutha!
__________________
Keep your Axe sharp and your powder dry.
hooligan1 is offline  
Old June 25, 2014, 07:22 PM   #16
Brian Pfleuger
Moderator Emeritus
 
Join Date: June 25, 2008
Location: Austin, CO
Posts: 19,578
Not Berger's but 105gr Hornady Match with secant ogive... recently decided to try them in my .243AI.... Figured I might as well start with them jammed in the rifling... worst groups I've ever gotten from a rifle.

Hm... These seems like a good candidate for testing my theory for finding best OAL.
__________________
Nobody plans to screw up their lives...
...they just don't plan not to.
-Andy Stanley
Brian Pfleuger is offline  
Old June 25, 2014, 08:40 PM   #17
Bart B.
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 15, 2009
Posts: 8,927
I'd load two recipies with IMR4831. One with 61 grains and another with 62 grains. 10 rounds each. Seat bullets out to almost touch the lands, or 1/16th inch shorter than magazine length. One of them will drive tacks. These were the loads popular with the 7 Rem Mag when it was popular in long range matches.

3-shot groups have about a 30% probability of representing what the real accuracy of the system is. Shoot three 3-shot groups with each load then the tenth one in the 3rd group. I doubt they're within 10% of the same size.
Bart B. is offline  
Old June 25, 2014, 11:18 PM   #18
FLChinook
Senior Member
 
Join Date: September 9, 2012
Location: Texas
Posts: 378
Quote:
I'd load two recipies with IMR4831. One with 61 grains and another with 62 grains.
You must mean the H4831. I have IMR but not Hodgdon and it has a max load of 59.4 grain. Would you expect there to be a significant difference between the performance of the two brands? Berger lists them both with the same burn rate.

Thanks
FLChinook is offline  
Old June 26, 2014, 04:07 AM   #19
hooligan1
Senior Member
 
Join Date: July 18, 2010
Location: Independence Missouri
Posts: 4,582
Bart I tried that with a few different powders. This bullet needs quite the jump to make decent accuracy. With any other bullet, your method seems like what I always try but in my rifle,,,,, no dice...
It does a fair job with Sierra Gamekings in 160 grn, andd 61 grains of IMR 4350, and 7828..
__________________
Keep your Axe sharp and your powder dry.
hooligan1 is offline  
Old June 26, 2014, 08:32 AM   #20
Rimfire5
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 2, 2009
Location: Northern Virginia
Posts: 919
FLChinook

Berger gives the following advice at the top of each of their bullet references. "Optimal performance may be achieved in your rifle at a different COAL. See page 148 for details."

The article on page 148 of their manual is a very good discussion of the effects of adjusting COAL to your particular rifle's chamber to get the best accuracy and includes the reasons why trying to seat bullets directly into the rifling increases barrel pressure severely while allowing a slight "jump" actually can reduce pressure because you are allowing more space in the cartridge as the bullet is seated further out from SAAMI COAL.

Most of the best load and best powder notes in other manuals seem to be listed at the SAAMI COAL. In the Berger philosophy of tuning COAL to your particular rifle's chamber depth that would be close to meaningless.
Rimfire5 is offline  
Old June 26, 2014, 09:12 AM   #21
Brian Pfleuger
Moderator Emeritus
 
Join Date: June 25, 2008
Location: Austin, CO
Posts: 19,578
Quote:
Most of the best load and best powder notes in other manuals seem to be listed at the SAAMI COAL.
That's because they only list loads that comply with SAAMI specifications. It is no indication of best practice, it is only to comply with the standard.

If they got 1" groups within SAAMI specs and 0.1" groups by being 0.010" longer than SAAMI max, they're most accurate listed load would be that 1" load.
__________________
Nobody plans to screw up their lives...
...they just don't plan not to.
-Andy Stanley
Brian Pfleuger is offline  
Old June 26, 2014, 04:01 PM   #22
old roper
Senior Member
 
Join Date: June 11, 2007
Posts: 2,155
FLChinook, I've been shooting Berger VLD hunting bullets 168gr/180gr in a 284 and 280AI and both are long throated. Berger 168gr VLD nose length is longer than base to ogive and if you look at Berger picture 7mag case length is 2.500" and COAL is 3.2902". Nose length for the 168gr is .7630" COAL would be 3.2630".

Page 239 to 243 gives you all the bullet lengths OAL,bearing surface,base to ogive,nose length,boattail length etc.
__________________
Semper Fi
Vietnam 1965
VFW Life member
NRA Life Member
old roper is offline  
Reply

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 08:33 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
This site and contents, including all posts, Copyright © 1998-2021 S.W.A.T. Magazine
Copyright Complaints: Please direct DMCA Takedown Notices to the registered agent: thefiringline.com
Page generated in 0.08851 seconds with 8 queries