ATF Project Gunrunner - Page 36

**Tom Servo** · August 16, 2011, 09:18 PM

We're now at 57 weapons traced to domestic crime scenes, in 11 separate incidents.

pnac · August 16, 2011, 10:17 PM

The article should read:

Quote:

The program was claimed to be intended to identify Mexican drug cartel leaders and smuggling routes across the border by allowing illegal purchases of firearms and then tracking the weapons. Instead, many of the guns simply vanished.

publius42 · August 17, 2011, 04:43 AM

Quote:

Weich added that Holder first spoke to Melson about the operation "in or about late April" of this year, after the attorney general learned of the program and during a regular briefing.

Holder seems to have a very hands-off management style. Months after the first letter from Grassley about this scandal was sent to his office, he got around to bringing it up with his subordinate in charge in a regular briefing. If true, that's a bit too hands-off IMO.

Al Norris · August 17, 2011, 08:23 AM

Once again, we get (very) close to conspiracy theory. sigh...

Obama blows whistle on his own law enforcement agents in Mexico

Quote:

Obama also said the American lawmen provided only “technical assistance” to help in the war on drug cartels....

The U.S. government was merely sharing intelligence information and consulting with the Mexican military through its agents in Mexico, Obama said....

U.S. officials were quick to say the agents and contractors are not permitted the use of firearms....

Obama also wished to emphasize that he had no plans to increase the number or the role of the U.S. agents in Mexico.

For those of you that are too young to remember, if you replace "Mexico" with "Viet Nam," you will get a better idea of what is happening.

The war on Communism vs. the war on Drugs... Too far fetched? Read George Santayana.

alan · August 17, 2011, 11:37 AM

Re "promotioms for management at ATF", this mentioned in a couple of earlier posts,(an article from the LA Times), does this surprise anyone?

CowTowner · August 17, 2011, 12:53 PM

Quote:

does this surprise anyone?

Gosh, I sure hope not.

Crosshair · August 17, 2011, 12:56 PM

Quote:

does this surprise anyone?

At least in a private, non "to big to fail", company one could have the satisfaction of watching that companies decline and bankruptcy. Sadly not the case in government where failure is rewarded.

BGutzman · August 17, 2011, 03:40 PM

It would be funny to see someone sue the government for not providing equal protection under the law as if some obvious felons can have firearms provided at tax payer expense then cant all of them have firearms? Or is it some criminals are more fair than others?

Im no lawyer but maybe someone needs to do this....

pnac · August 17, 2011, 03:50 PM

Quote:

Sadly not the case in government where failure is rewarded.

It looks more like in government evil is rewarded.

alan · August 17, 2011, 07:33 PM

Al Norris wrote:

Once again, we get (very) close to conspiracy theory. sigh...

----------------------------

Al:

In this case, (Operation F & F), I would say that we have long since passed the "theories" stage respecting "conspiracy", but that's just my view of the thing.

jimpeel · August 17, 2011, 10:40 PM

It is not a theory if they actually did conspire to do this. That is as it appears; and one does not need a tinfoil hat to see it.

This is not HAARP, or barbed wire fenced areas in Southwest Indiana, or giant tunnels under the United States, or (my favorite) the government projecting holographic images of Jesus Christ returning to Earth in the Second Coming to explain the disappearance of all of the Christian patriots.

It is more like "Its not paranoia if they are really out to get you."

**Aguila Blanca** · August 17, 2011, 11:51 PM

jimpeel -- I suggest you fire up Google and check on tunnels under the US/Mexico border. There was another one in the news just a couple of days ago. There are hundreds of them, some (like the one just discovered) fairly sophisticated (electric lights and forced ventilation).

C0untZer0 · August 18, 2011, 04:26 PM

Like clamping down on the black market for cigarettes:

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/s...ryId=129934561

http://www.foxbusiness.com/markets/2...-york-m-month/

Hardcase · August 18, 2011, 06:56 PM

C0untZer0, they do devote resources to that, and also to busting booze smugglers. Those things don't grab the public's attention like guns do, though. Last month, for example, they executed a boatload of search and seizure warrants in Washington state against a cigarette smuggling ring.

Sort of like the Secret Service. They protect the president, et al, but they have other important stuff to do as well.

C0untZer0 · August 18, 2011, 08:03 PM

The Secret Service is another department that has a weird niche of law enforcement carved out for it. It's my understanding that they are the primary agency for combating counterfeiting.

But again... I'm sure it's a job that could fall under the purview of the FBI.

KyJim · August 18, 2011, 09:17 PM

Pardon the thread drift -- I've had some limited professional contact with FBI, Secret Service, Postal Inspector, and IRS Criminal Investigations (money laundering). Secret Service impressed me as being the most professional. In addition to protecting the president and investigating counterfeiting crimes, they share authority with the FBI relating to credit card fraud and national bank frauds as they effect the monetary system.

**Tom Servo** · August 18, 2011, 10:47 PM

Quote:

The Secret Service is another department that has a weird niche of law enforcement carved out for it. It's my understanding that they are the primary agency for combating counterfeiting.

Yep. They're under the Department of the Treasury. Ironically, the legislation forming the Secret Service was on Abraham Lincoln's desk the night he was killed.

alloy · August 19, 2011, 05:46 AM

Slight thread drift. Heard about this arrest yesterday, which mentions the Sinaloa cartel, smuggling, and guns once again. Good to know who our government lies down with when guns, IEDs, and hand grenades are involved and going to Detroit.

http://www.sacbee.com/2011/08/18/384...i-mexican.html

http://www.mercurynews.com/breaking-...404?source=rss

Twinsig · August 20, 2011, 07:31 AM

Special Hannity Show last night on F&F cover-up. Quite interesting.

Crosshair · August 20, 2011, 09:40 AM

Quote:

Special Hannity Show last night on F&F cover-up. Quite interesting.

Here is the playlist of the show on YouTube. I haven't watched it myself yet.

Sean Hannity: Operation Fast & Furious

ltc444 · August 20, 2011, 10:44 AM

Watched Hannaty twice. Excellent program.

Unfortunately, it like the Congressional investigations are focused on th ATF and the Justice department.

They need to expand to State department and Homeland security. Both of these organizations had to sign off on the program.

This has the potential to be as explosive as Watergate.

HarrySchell · August 22, 2011, 04:03 PM

Nice essay from Pajamas Media:

http://pajamasmedia.com/blog/gunwalk...ion-of-liberty

Quote:

It all comes down to this: Is there an inalienable right to self-defense? If there is, each man has indisputable, inestimable value, value that he may rightly preserve even if the life of another man is forfeit. A man may kill another in lawful self-defense even if the policy preferences of the state would prefer his death. If a right to self-defense actually exists, it is in a very real sense the highest law of the land and all lesser laws must pay it deference. It fundamentally defines the social contract, the nature of the relationship between man and the state.

But if there is no such inalienable right, the entire nature of the social contract is changed. Each man’s worth is measured solely by his utility to the state, and as such the value of his life rides a roller coaster not unlike the stock market: dependent not only upon the preferences of the party in power but upon the whims of its political leaders and the permanent bureaucratic class.

FrontSight · August 23, 2011, 03:37 PM

Quote:

Nice essay from Pajamas Media:

http://pajamasmedia.com/blog/gunwalk...ion-of-liberty

Quote:
It all comes down to this: Is there an inalienable right to self-defense? If there is, each man has indisputable, inestimable value, value that he may rightly preserve even if the life of another man is forfeit. A man may kill another in lawful self-defense even if the policy preferences of the state would prefer his death. If a right to self-defense actually exists, it is in a very real sense the highest law of the land and all lesser laws must pay it deference. It fundamentally defines the social contract, the nature of the relationship between man and the state.

But if there is no such inalienable right, the entire nature of the social contract is changed. Each man’s worth is measured solely by his utility to the state, and as such the value of his life rides a roller coaster not unlike the stock market: dependent not only upon the preferences of the party in power but upon the whims of its political leaders and the permanent bureaucratic class.

__________________

He writes as eloquently as the Founding Fathers, and SO hits the nail on the head

Gary L. Griffiths · August 23, 2011, 03:40 PM

Quote:

Nice essay from Pajamas Media:

Excellent read. Thanx, Harry.

alan · August 24, 2011, 07:13 PM

ltc444 wrote:

Watched Hannaty twice. Excellent program.

Unfortunately, it like the Congressional investigations are focused on th ATF and the Justice department.

They need to expand to State department and Homeland security. Both of these organizations had to sign off on the program.

This has the potential to be as explosive as Watergate.
-------------------------------

Strikes me that the gentleman just might have a point re his observations, concerning following lines of responsibility and the placing of blame where it ultimately belongs. A "once over, lightly", will not do, for it's likely, as the writer suggests, that responsibility goes far beyond DOJ and BATFE, which of and in themselves are certainly culpable, though they likely had quite a bit of "help" in their foolishness.

August 16, 2011, 09:18 PM	#876
Tom Servo Staff Join Date: September 27, 2008 Location: Foothills of the Appalachians Posts: 13,059	We're now at 57 weapons traced to domestic crime scenes, in 11 separate incidents. __________________ Sometimes it’s nice not to destroy the world for a change. --Randall Munroe

August 17, 2011, 03:40 PM	#883
BGutzman Senior Member Join Date: December 4, 2009 Location: Frozen Tundra Posts: 2,414	It would be funny to see someone sue the government for not providing equal protection under the law as if some obvious felons can have firearms provided at tax payer expense then cant all of them have firearms? Or is it some criminals are more fair than others? Im no lawyer but maybe someone needs to do this.... __________________ Molon Labe Last edited by BGutzman; August 17, 2011 at 05:52 PM.

August 17, 2011, 10:40 PM	#886
jimpeel Senior Member Join Date: October 11, 1999 Location: Longmont, CO, USA Posts: 4,530	It is not a theory if they actually did conspire to do this. That is as it appears; and one does not need a tinfoil hat to see it. This is not HAARP, or barbed wire fenced areas in Southwest Indiana, or giant tunnels under the United States, or (my favorite) the government projecting holographic images of Jesus Christ returning to Earth in the Second Coming to explain the disappearance of all of the Christian patriots. It is more like "Its not paranoia if they are really out to get you." __________________ Gun Control: The premise that a woman found in an alley, raped and strangled with her own pantyhose, is morally superior to allowing that same woman to defend her life with a firearm. "Science is built up with facts, as a house is with stones. But a collection of facts is no more a science than a heap of stones is a house." - Jules Henri Poincare "Three thousand people died on Sept. 11 because eight pilots were killed" -- former Northwest Airlines pilot Stephen Luckey

August 18, 2011, 04:26 PM	#888
C0untZer0 Junior member Join Date: April 21, 2011 Location: Illinois Posts: 4,555	I would think BATFE has other things they could have been doing with their time Like clamping down on the black market for cigarettes: http://www.npr.org/templates/story/s...ryId=129934561 http://www.foxbusiness.com/markets/2...-york-m-month/

August 18, 2011, 06:56 PM	#889
Hardcase Senior Member Join Date: April 14, 2009 Location: Sunny Southern Idaho Posts: 1,909	C0untZer0, they do devote resources to that, and also to busting booze smugglers. Those things don't grab the public's attention like guns do, though. Last month, for example, they executed a boatload of search and seizure warrants in Washington state against a cigarette smuggling ring. Sort of like the Secret Service. They protect the president, et al, but they have other important stuff to do as well. __________________ Well we don't rent pigs and I figure it's better to say it right out front because a man that does like to rent pigs is... he's hard to stop - Gus McCrae

August 17, 2011, 11:37 AM	#880
alan Senior Member Join Date: June 7, 1999 Posts: 3,847	Re "promotioms for management at ATF", this mentioned in a couple of earlier posts,(an article from the LA Times), does this surprise anyone?

August 17, 2011, 07:33 PM	#885
alan Senior Member Join Date: June 7, 1999 Posts: 3,847	Al Norris wrote: Once again, we get (very) close to conspiracy theory. sigh... ---------------------------- Al: In this case, (Operation F & F), I would say that we have long since passed the "theories" stage respecting "conspiracy", but that's just my view of the thing.

August 17, 2011, 11:51 PM	#887
Aguila Blanca Staff Join Date: September 25, 2008 Location: CONUS Posts: 18,468	jimpeel -- I suggest you fire up Google and check on tunnels under the US/Mexico border. There was another one in the news just a couple of days ago. There are hundreds of them, some (like the one just discovered) fairly sophisticated (electric lights and forced ventilation).

August 18, 2011, 08:03 PM	#890
C0untZer0 Junior member Join Date: April 21, 2011 Location: Illinois Posts: 4,555	The Secret Service is another department that has a weird niche of law enforcement carved out for it. It's my understanding that they are the primary agency for combating counterfeiting. But again... I'm sure it's a job that could fall under the purview of the FBI.

August 18, 2011, 09:17 PM	#891
KyJim Senior Member Join Date: July 26, 2005 Location: The Bluegrass Posts: 9,142	Pardon the thread drift -- I've had some limited professional contact with FBI, Secret Service, Postal Inspector, and IRS Criminal Investigations (money laundering). Secret Service impressed me as being the most professional. In addition to protecting the president and investigating counterfeiting crimes, they share authority with the FBI relating to credit card fraud and national bank frauds as they effect the monetary system.

August 20, 2011, 07:31 AM	#894
Twinsig Senior Member Join Date: January 30, 2009 Location: East Alabama Posts: 235	Special Hannity Show last night on F&F cover-up. Quite interesting. __________________ I also have Fire Extinguishers, hope I never need those either.

August 20, 2011, 10:44 AM	#896
ltc444 Senior Member Join Date: March 3, 2011 Location: Vernon AZ Posts: 1,195	Watched Hannaty twice. Excellent program. Unfortunately, it like the Congressional investigations are focused on th ATF and the Justice department. They need to expand to State department and Homeland security. Both of these organizations had to sign off on the program. This has the potential to be as explosive as Watergate.

August 24, 2011, 07:13 PM	#900
alan Senior Member Join Date: June 7, 1999 Posts: 3,847	ltc444 wrote: Watched Hannaty twice. Excellent program. Unfortunately, it like the Congressional investigations are focused on th ATF and the Justice department. They need to expand to State department and Homeland security. Both of these organizations had to sign off on the program. This has the potential to be as explosive as Watergate. ------------------------------- Strikes me that the gentleman just might have a point re his observations, concerning following lines of responsibility and the placing of blame where it ultimately belongs. A "once over, lightly", will not do, for it's likely, as the writer suggests, that responsibility goes far beyond DOJ and BATFE, which of and in themselves are certainly culpable, though they likely had quite a bit of "help" in their foolishness.