Fights and CW

[skifast]

Real Life Situation:

It doesn't get more senseless than this: Christopher Kernich, a 23-year-old business management student, was walking home with two friends during the wee hours at Kent State University in Ohio. Three dopes in a car pulled out of a parking lot and nearly ran them over, so one yelled at them to "watch what you're doing."

These, moronically enough, were apparently fighting words to University of Akron students Ronald Kelly, 20, and Adrian Barker, 21. They jumped from the car and began savagely beating the three pedestrians, kicking and stomping them as the lay on the street.

Members of the Delta Tau Delta frat saw the incident and ran to help. But by the time they arrived, Kernich was unconscious. "It didn't look like he was breathing whatsoever and his body was like limp so we had to physically pick up out of the street," frat brother Shawn Mullins told Fox8...

But the frat boys were able to detain Kelly and Barker until police arrived.

After spending a week in the hospital, Kernich died over the weekend. (See his Facebook page here.) The two Akron students were originally charged with felonious assault. Those charges will likely be upgraded to murde

[Cremon]

skifast - if the guy jumps out of his car and I am alone (i.e. no crowd to retreat into) my gun is coming out - same as yours in the same situation.

[Hardcase]

Originally Posted by Peru

This guy was talking on his phone and turning on a red light as i rightfully was crossing the crosswalk and he came close to hitting me and then proceeded to scream out the window as if it was my fault. I glanced to see what he was doing and then smiled and turned away to ignore him. he got upset and decided to take it up a notch and he got out of the car asking me what i thought was so funny and moved quickly in my direction. No chest pumping on my side what so ever.

Honestly, this is a pretty easy situation to resolve. You keep walking. Trot. Run, whatever. The guy has left his car in the middle of the road. If the situation unfolded the way you describe, there was no threat to your life. Your ego, maybe, but that's about it.

Please don't take this the wrong way because I'm not being mean or trying to belittle you, but if your description of the incident is accurate and you have to question whether or not you would have drawn your weapon, you probably should not be carrying one.

[sonick808]

If you're not willing to turn the other cheek, bite your tongue, talk your way out of something or just completely run away, you shouldn't be carrying, and you will eventually end up in prison.

If you take ANY part in the escalation of a situation that ends in your handgun being drawn or shot, you will go to prison.

Run away as fast as you can!!!!!!

Your handgun should repel your ego like same poles on a magnet. They are NOT compatible. If you can't take a slight against your ego or manhood, don't carry.

[skifast]

For all of you that recommend running away, make sure you are faster and have more endurance than the guy confronting you. If he ends up tackling you and taking you gun, bad things can happen. Being fat and old, I will walk away. If he pursues, I am not going to get into a foot race.

[Peru]

cremon -- this was a relatively crowded place but everyone was in their car.

This guy was simply having a bad day and realized it as he approached me it was not going to a situation that was going to be productive for him. Still it begs the question and since i am reevaluating my need to carry i figure id pose the question.

Its impossible for someone to relate a situation and have you explain what you would do because so many details and different ways a situation can evolve.

Yes fists can be deadly force and brass knuckles wont make themselves know until you feel them on your face so there is a lot that could come of a situation that is not immediately apparent.

The reason why I ask is that over the past 41 years I have only run into one situation where a gun would have been useful and still even in that case it was solved with no one seriously hurt except one drunken machete wielding bad guy who took a beating from 3 guys. Everyone on the beach that night including myself were very stressed out to say the least. On the other hand I have seen many situations where pulling a gun could have been a disaster. That is why it concerns me to pack a weapon. I just dont think its worth it. However, having said that reading everything here makes me reevaluate that thought process. Again I am in search of an answer for my needs -- for the woods its a easy choice but I am not sure its always a good choice out in everyday life. I am still thinking it over but I have to admit not carrying in everyday situations is a good choice for me. If I go on a road trip Ill pack.

[Cremon]

I have to agree with skifast. If I can get away, I will. I will run as fast as I can and hope I am faster. If I can't outrun my assailant, I'll pull out my smoke stick. I am not betting my life on the restraint of a complete stranger that is enraged.

Peru - I understand all your arguments not to carry and I respect your opinion. I don't disagree with your decision because everyone's sitiuation is different.

For me personally, the decision to carry is easy. I carry because there are bad people in the world and I only need to be wrong ONCE about what a BG will do and my kids have no father. So I carry and pray often that if I ever get into a situation where I am in danger, that I will make the right decision, because like you say - a lot rides on that. But if I am in immenent danger, I am going to draw my pistol and at that point raw adrenaline takes over and the BG will either not attack me, or else it doesn't matter that I am armed and he will anyway and things will progress from there. I know the legal and moral risks associated with carrying and I have chosen to carry even after weighing them.

Just my $.02

[Peru]

One key factor that has precipitated this whole search for an answer is "kids".

I have two young ones 1 and 3 and living with out a father and or worse getting hurt or dead is why I am reevaluating. I think Its a matter of numbers. Ive lived in many different places which are way more dangerous than Redmond WA. For me my decision is pointing in the "no-carry" direction is based on statistics. Here its very unlikely there will be a problem serious enough to be in a situation where its best to have a weapon. In other places like Miami where I have lived that is a totally different story. Id pack in Miami with out thinking of it at all and I get regular training on skills and get up to speed on legal ramifications of my actions so I can hopefully choose the least complicated path.

[sonick808]

true, true.

you can only flee as fast as you are physically able.

If you haven't done anything to escalate the situation, and you have made every reasonable attempt based on your physical capabilities, you're in the clear (hopefully)

it's the ego, provocation, escalation etc. that will get you thrown in the clink for a few decades.

[The Tourist]

Originally Posted by Peru

So please, before you opine get your facts.

I believe you are getting the facts, and some great advice. This can be easily verified by reading any article Massad Ayoob wrote in his column, "Win On The Street, Win In Court."

Events do not happen in a vacuum. And certainly not in restaurants, bars and many public streets where security cameras exist. You are going to be held accountable for every action (and boast) you make.

And even if the perp decides to chase me as I'm backing up with my wife towards an exit, he has now clearly defined himself as the aggressor.

I'm not even sure that those who recommend you pull a piece or throw a punch ever really did so in their lives. You can lose your CCW license for brandishing. The court costs, the lawsuits, the lost wages (and in many cases being fired), and jail time are never worth taking a few steps back.

[Peru]

in this state you go to jail if you brandish with out a good reason.

no know can realistically say what they will do when in the actual situation -- adrenalin will speak for itself no matter what you say and if you insist otherwise you are an arm chair expert end of story.

Ask any LE. They train for different scenarios but still they get killed and or involved in situations that got way out of control. its only due to their training that the situation did not get worse than it did. I dont know any civilian who gets that level initial and continuos training.

[The Tourist]

Originally Posted by Peru

in this state you go to jail if you brandish with out a good reason.

Under the right circumstances, I agree. But clearly, more important issues must be considered.

Several weeks ago some professional athletes pulled out loaded pistols in a locker-room, supposedly horsing around. Consider this abject foolishness if this had been done outside their sphere of influence and recognition.

I don't follow basketball, and I never heard of any of these guys. But I do know what it means to pull a pistol...

[Peru]

bottom line -- CCW is a huge responsibility. No matter how responsible you are things can go bad.

I have one other scenario which concerns me but I will leave that for another day.

[NRAhab]

A worthwhile piece of advice I've been told by other, smarter guys: If you are a carrying a gun, any fight you get into is a gunfight regardless of whether or not you want it to be. It would then behoove you to avoid fights at all cost unless deadly force is justified.

[sonick808]

^^ exactly! ^^

[pax]

I have two young ones 1 and 3 and living with out a father and or worse getting hurt or dead is why I am reevaluating. I think Its a matter of numbers. Ive lived in many different places which are way more dangerous than Redmond WA. For me my decision is pointing in the "no-carry" direction is based on statistics. Here its very unlikely there will be a problem serious enough to be in a situation where its best to have a weapon.

peru,

It's not the odds you need to consider. It's what's at stake.

How would you live with yourself if one of your children were hurt, abducted, or killed in a situation where you had deliberately chosen to go unarmed because it seemed "unlikely" that your family would encounter criminal danger? How would you feel afterward? Would you be able to accept that stuff sometimes just happens, or would you spend time seriously considering ways that you could have protected them?

pax

[CWPinSC]

So please, before you opine get your facts.

If you had provided ALL the facts and the exact situation at first, some of our replies might nave been different. It reminds me of Paul Harvey - "the rest of the story".

You asked for opinions and you don't like the answers. Given your mindset, carrying a gun will only do one thing - get you killed.

[porkskin]

Carrying a gun has made me more of a wuss than I ever thought I would be. So has having a wife and kids. You let things go so that you don't put them in harm's way the same way you let things go so you do not HAVE to shoot somebody. My ego recovered quickly and I have taken well to wussdom as well as having a loving family

[Dwight55]

I had a situation ...........so he is coming into it very confident. Keep in mind his actions are totally unprovoked and he is moving towards me very aggressively.

You could tell by his demeanor and the look on his face he wanted to get into it with me in a real bad way.

Although edited for length, the above content IF CONCERNING ME will get a question from me that will be something to the effect "What's the problem there?"

He then has no choice but to reveal his intention, . . . if it is a case of mistaken identity, . . . or something that can be talked out, . . . I'm willing to try to do that as long as he stays 12 to 15 feet away from me.

Any answer that indicates he is going to harm this 65 year old retiree who has had open heart surgery, has a bad knee, and is long past fisticuffs, . . . will get him staring down the wrong end of a 1911, . . . and where it goes from there will be perfectly determined by his next action.

Anyone willing to take a butt whoopin', possibly get permanently maimed or killed in the process, is not sufficiently intelligent to own a handgun, much less carry one on their person on a day to day basis.

Fists, feet, elbows and teeth killed the one who was lesser able to use them for centuries if not melleniums before Sam Colt came along, . . . there is absolutely no reason to allow that to happen today.

Self defense is just that, . . . self defense, . . . and whatever is needed to defend one's self, . . . as far as I am concerned, . . . is what it takes.

Of course, . . . that presupposes that we don't live in England.

May God bless,
Dwight

[Deaf Smith]

Fists are deadly force, and I would respond with pulling my gun and using it if he did not back down.

Over the past two months in two separate incidents, there have been two guys beaten up in Kent Ohio. Chris Kernich died. The other guy was in intensive care. I have not heard if he has recovered.

Anyone that thinks a street fight does not represent a deadly situation is naive.

This is true. Especially if the other guy is lots bigger and stronger.

I'm training at Krav Maga now (as well as my TKD I've done for 30 years) and we have some very big guys there. I've had to go to the mat with men who have over 40 lbs on me, not to mention 20 years younger, and it's tough to fight them. And when you have had bigger guys pound you while you hold the pads you know they have more raw power than you could ever generate.

So yes a fist fight can turn deadly in a hurry.

Those that pack guns I strongly suggest you get skills to handle situations that do not require deadly force. And skills to keep an aggressor away till you can get your weapon in play.

Oh, and Peru, have you considered also carrying pepper spray along with your gun? That way instead of a fist fight you can use a non-lethal way first to deal with the guy trying to fight you.

[Tennessee Gentleman]

Originally Posted by NRAhab

It would then behoove you to avoid fights at all cost unless deadly force is justified.

Quite true. Or as another TFL member put it; "You can have a gun and you can have a temper but you can't have both!"

As far as some of this "backing down" stuff I have seen posted. If you are armed I think in my mind and I bet in the minds of non-gun owning jurors that "backing down" is a forgone conclusion when you are armed.

We are taught in TN in our CCW classes that a punch to the nose does not warrant a shooting.

I think as a general rule of thumb (and those are bad I know) one should try heroically to avoid shooting an unarmed person. Yes, fists can kill you and if you are "jumped" by a gang then that is different as also a female being sexuallt assaulted. But a bar fight?

Be careful? Prison really sux.:barf:

[GUNSITE]

Going to court to justify why i had to shoot an unarmed person would really suck, especially if the target survives and testifies. In court, the truth doesn't matters, its only what you can prove that matters. Your decision Your Responsible. Good Luck.

[Pittbull]

Maybe this is a good reason to carry a little bottle of mace if you carry a firearm?

[kilimanjaro]

The state, in granting you a license to carry a lethal weapon on your person, also granted you the power of life and death over others, and the state requires you to refuse to exercise that power in any and all circumstances except the threat to human life or serious felonies.

You say, 'Sorry, mister, I'm not going to fight you.', and retreat, immediately. Only if he pursues you and begins to beat you to death, or threatens you with his own weapon, then you can use your weapon.

If you find yourself in situations in bars where agression is common, you need to find new friends and new places to go. You are half of the situation whether you agree with it or not, just by being there, that is a conscious choice and not an appropriate choice to a pistol licensee.

[Cremon]

Having a gun in a tough bar could be considered trolling for a fight. Most states forbid guns in either bars or restaurants that serve alcohol. Georgia lets you carry in a restaurant even if they serve alcohol (though you'd better not be drinking if you have to draw your gun).

The people here that say "know your own state laws" are giving the best advice there is on this forum (taking nothing away from the "practice with your gun" people). If you carry a gun in your state, even with a permit - you owe it to yourself and the ones you love to INTIMATELY know the laws that apply to concealed carry and the use of deadly force where you will be carrying. There's no excuse for not having done that research before that first time you walk outside with that permit in your wallet and that gun hidden on your person somewhere.