Why you keep unknown people at a distance

[Doc Intrepid]

Originally Posted by TenRing

"3. If the victim had a gun, she would need to put it into play very quickly because the bad guy was on top of her within a few seconds."

I think there's at least two other lessons to be taken from this sad event:

A) Some days are just not going to be your day. Buy insurance for your valuables.

B) When things go bad they go bad incredibly rapidly. If you only have a few seconds in which to react, any reaction that takes longer than seconds isn't going to matter.

When I watch that video I'm struck by how frequently in my own life something that goes down that fast could make me a victim. (Not that I wear $90K bling - I generally look like I'm homeless... )

Maybe its the same for some of you guys?

How many times when you are grocery shopping are you routinely prepared to draw a handgun in seconds?

Most of the time I have a list from my wife in one hand, and a jar of pickles or something in the other.

I hope the guy gets caught trying to pawn the ring...

[nitetrane98]

Though it seems like a lot to the most of us, a 90K ring is slumming jewelry for a lot of folks in Richardson, Addison, Highland Park, etc. Known as North Dallas. High end Mercedes' and Cadillac Escalades are the grocery getters.

Though not particularly unique to Dallas, I remember reading that none of the LEO in these cities could afford to live in the town they worked. Pretty sure there are no rank and file cops living in Manhattan, NY either.

[nitetrane98]

I hope the guy gets caught trying to pawn the ring...

I'm wondering how many jewelry thefts these days will end up in a mailer to one of those "CASH FOR GOLD.COM" outfits. Instant global fencing, no questions asked.

[Double Naught Spy]

I hope the guy gets caught trying to pawn the ring...

They aren't going to try to pawn the ring. That just isn't going to happen. These guys were too well organized for that. To pawn the ring requires a state picture ID as has been required for years. So they aren't going to pawn it. Sure, they could have a fake state ID and if so, then they are well above the level of simply pawning items.

The ring was valued at $90K. There aren't too many pawn shops in Texas that would be able to provide the crooks 1/10th the value.

I'm wondering how many jewelry thefts these days will end up in a mailer to one of those "CASH FOR GOLD.COM" outfits. Instant global fencing, no questions asked.

A bunch probably does, but this ring won't be going there. Well, the ring might, but the diamond isn't.

[Win73]

How many times when you are grocery shopping are you routinely prepared to draw a handgun in seconds?

When I am in the store doing the shopping it would take me a few seconds to drop whatever I have in my hand into the cart or on the floor and draw my gun. However if anything is going to happen, it will most likely happen in the parking lot. And when I am in the parking lot, my right hand will be in my pocket with either my S & W Model 637 .38 snub or my Ruger LCP .380 in my hand. I will be carrying any groceries or pushing a cart with my left hand. I can deploy either within a second. And nobody will know that I even have it unless they make me use it.

[Balog]

I've gotta think loading your car with one hand permanently stuck in a pocket won't be as inconspicuous as you might hope...

[JohnKSa]

If someone is careful or smart about it they're likely going to be able to take you by surprise. That isn't what happened here.

The car stopped and someone got out then the car kept going. That should be enough to make a person take notice and observe more carefully. Maybe the person is being dropped off by their car?

But he didn't really approach a car like he was going to get into it. He walked around to the passenger side of the car parked next to her keeping it in between them. He could have just made straight for her without giving her much time to react but he chose to take a more circuitous route. Had she been paying attention she might have wondered why he got out of a car and then approached a parked car on the passenger side and then walked past it to the wall of the store. What he was doing wasn't making a lot of sense.

From the wall (out of camera view) he somehow got her attention and she walked over to him.

He let her walk away but then ran her down and tackled her from behind before she could get to the driver's side door.

She had a lot of chances to stay away from him and maybe a chance or two to get into her car but didn't take them because she wasn't paying enough attention to realize something was up.

That's pretty much normal behavior for people. They don't want to believe, don't believe that bad things can happen to them. That's how they can go out at night in Dallas wearing enough jewelry to pay for 4 or 5 nice cars and not worry about it.

And that's why the criminal didn't take a more "tactical" approach to the scenario. He knew she would give him enough chances that he wouldn't have to rush her immediately.

Assuming one goes along with the analysis that she was targeted inside the store, it's hard to make a reasonable case that she was targeted for anything other than her jewelry. They didn't take her purse/wallet--there's no indication that they even tried to--and I would think it's easier to get a purse or a wallet than it is to get a ring off someone's finger.

It's telling that she drove all the way home before calling the police. Like her other actions it suggests that she had no idea what to do. Possibly because she had never considered that something like this would ever happen to her. Just like all the people you see on TV being interviewed who say: "I never thought anything like this could happen to me."

[TenRing]

I think it is a fact that anyone, armed or not, can be taken by surprise by a determined criminal. Nobody is totally aware and alert 100% of the time. Some of us have better situational awareness than others but all it takes is one small slip-up to give a predator the opportunity he needs to take advantage.

YouTube has a lot of videos showing how criminals got away with crime and it also has videos that show how an armed citizen stopped a criminal with the judicious application of firepower.

We all have weaknesses and that's why I think it is so important that armed citizens look out for each other. It would have been beautiful if an armed citizen had been stepping out of a nearby car in time to turn the tables on the bad guy.

Sure, the woman should have known better than to wear a $90k ring out in public but I don't like to blame the victim. I would only suggest that if her husband can afford to buy her a ring of that caliber, he should also be able to buy her a pocket pistol and the training to use it effectively.

[Erik]

I humbly submit the addition of a firearm carried by this victim would have made no difference what so ever. A different victim? Perhaps.

[Tunaguy]

Its too easy to play Monday morning quarterback. There are so many cars going by the highway she probably didn't hear the bums pull up. We can all say it but no one is 100% on guard all the time. Hopefully now her jewelry will be made by S&W.

[Win73]

I've gotta think loading your car with one hand permanently stuck in a pocket won't be as inconspicuous as you might hope...

I didn't say that I load my car or do anything with one hand permanently stuck in my pocket. I try to keep alert and if there is obviously nothing nearby that could pose a threat I won't have the hand in my pocket. As I am walking across the parking lot I survey the situation. If there is nothing threatening or suspicious nearby I will load the car normally while continuing to be alert. If someone approaches, it will only take a second to put the hand back in the pocket. Or if more time, to get in the car. In my pocket will be a .38 or .380. In the car will be a .45.

And guys with their hands in their pocket is a common site, especially when they aren't doing anything in particular. However if I am walking across a parking lot at night, you can bet the hand will be in my pocket. Generally if anything happens then it will tend to closer and quicker.

[JohnKSa]

Sure, the woman should have known better than to wear a $90k ring out in public but I don't like to blame the victim.

I don't blame her for wearing the jewelry. I don't blame her for not being a little more alert. It's not her fault she was beaten and robbed.

But the fact that she's not to blame doesn't change the fact that there are lessons to be learned.

We can all say it but no one is 100% on guard all the time.

Correct.

However there are times when it pays to be a bit more alert than others. I've lived near Dallas for the last 3 decades or so and my personal opinion is that if you're wearing close to 6 figures worth of jewelry at night in Dallas, that is one of those times.

For example, my parents often leave their garage door open. I tell them it's a security risk, but if someone comes in and steals something while the door is up I'm not going to blame my parents for what happens. Criminals are responsible for the crimes they commit.

HOWEVER, that doesn't mean I think it's a good idea to leave your garage door open if you're not watching it.

Said another way, it's not the fault of the very young, old, sick and the weak buffalo that they get eaten by the lions, but there's a good reason the lions target them.

Predators rarely make their choices randomly and to the extent that it's reasonable it's wise to avoid looking like prey. If you have to, or choose to look like prey then it pays to be alert and to take reasonable precautions to help ensure your safety.

[Double Naught Spy]

But the fact that she's not to blame doesn't change the fact that there are lessons to be learned.

Right, it isn't her fault that she was attacked, but quite likely the attack might not have occurred if she wasn't alone in a dark parking lot with an obvious display of oppulence.

In short, her behaviors increase the risk to her. That doesn't mean she doesn't have a right to behave as she did, but she could have lowered her risk level if she would have chosen other behaviors.

[Pyzon]

Not meaning to hijack the thread, but the easiest thing to do (and I think it would not have made a difference in the case we are discussing, for a couple of obvious reasons) is to pass the classroom and range requirements to carry concealed.

What I struggle with daily is the other side of the equation, the need to be super vigilant, situationally aware, with ready access to my carry piece, emotionally ready to make that life changing decision, and hoping that the training I have gone through finishes the job in a positive manner.

As far as placing blame for this horrific crime, granted you have the right to wear this kind of jewelry to the grocery, the gas station, wherever, with the expectation it will not bring bad luck to you.

BUT, the criminal mutts are learning that the pickins are lots better in nice neighborhoods, the victims are far less wary, and maybe far less likely to be able to defend themselves.

Somebody was going to be victimized that night, in some parking lot in the general area. The victim in this case contributed in some fraction to the crime for all the already mentioned reasons.

Making it tough for the dirtballs by being on guard, armed and ready is the solution to this problem, along with closing garage doors at home and lighting up the exterior of the place. Send them to somebody else not so ready is all you can do.

[CRUE CAB]

I have always kept my distance from those I dont know. Not that Iam not polite, but kind of always looking for the wrong move or statement from them.
I always sit with my eyes toward a door in a resturant or bar and always watch people as they move around me.
I wouldnt call myself paranoid but I would rather be alittle "on guard" than a victim.
Most people now a days look like they are ready to be taken advantage of. They are always looking down, shuffling to and from thier cars.
I look up and around always, chest out, shoulders back like Iam aware of my surroundings. Not to look like a tuff guy, just to look like I have purpose and intent in life and not some shuffle bum to come begging around.

[Glenn E. Meyer]

Just world and blaming the victim are in play in some comments, along with puffing about our alertness.

If terrible things happen, we don't want to accept such and thus to avoid thinking they will happen to us, we move fault to the victim.

BTW, we were at Sun Harvest a gourment health store lot. Putting away the groceries. We see a shabby man looking at us and starting towards us. I look him in the eye and he starts to talk and I say: I'm sorry. I can't help you, Sir.

He turns away and later I see him hanging in the window of some pickup that is trying to drive away. Steely eyed-I am!

Ah - high alertness from the Dynamic Meyer Duo. Plus - Glock 26, two mags, OC, two Delicas, Surefire. No BUG - damn, I'm slipping. Alertness learned at Insights Advanced Vehicle and Tactics class and several runs through ATSA village at the NTI.

That woman should have been similarly in Condition Camberet!

[KingEdward]

not sure why time was spent approaching him. Can't judge her for it.

Probably clarification from her as to what he was asking/saying. He
was probably leaned against the wall looking pitiful and mumbling about
money for food for his little girl. Something to get her to sympathize
and relax.

those 5-6 seconds I kept thinking get to the other side of the car
get in and lock up. Whatever he does will have to be done as the
car is backing out / pulling away

leave the groceries in the buggy. they can be replaced.

[Deaf Smith]

not sure why time was spent approaching him. Can't judge her for it.

She told the police they were 'preppy'. So I suspect she simply smiled and said, "Hi, I'm fine' and turned her back to go get the groceries in.

Now how many times do we say that at stores? See it was not a 'can you spare a dime?' but a 'can I help you?' question he posed. She just thought he was going to help her.

Many months ago at the Bed-n-Bath place an very old lady was having trouble getting the ironing board out of her car to take it in for a return. I saw her struggling and I turned around and offered to help. She was happy for my help and I took the board in for her.

Yes I could have mugged her, but being clean cut and decent looking she didn't think a thing of it. Granted I didn't notice any $90K ring, but then, to tell you the truth, I didn't even look!

So I presume the lady in the video thought the guy looked ok and walked toward him because of that.

[JohnKSa]

Reality is somewhere between blaming the victim and pretending that all predatory behavior is purely random.

We can all take steps to reduce our chances of becoming victims. We can't eliminate the possibility of becoming a victim but we can reduce the chances that we will be victimized and we can also take steps that might ameliorate the outcome should we be preyed upon.

The fact that many choose not to take those steps isn't culpable, it doesn't mean they're contributing to crime, but it does leave them more vulnerable.

If I examine 2 houses, one with french doors, large windows, no deadbolts, lots of fancy electronic equipment visible through the windows and one with bars on the windows, heavy deadbolts, reinforced doors and nothing particularly valuable visible through the windows and state that the first house is less secure, I'm not blaming the owners of the first house, I'm just pointing out reality. A more secure house is less likely to be broken into, not because the owners are better or because the owners of the less secure house deserve blame or are contributing to burglary, but because thieves would rather break into houses that are easy to break into and they break into houses they believe have desirable items inside.

Let's say I see two persons. The first is a healthy, fit, above average sized, young male wearing a cheap digital watch, no jewelry, generic brand clothes who appears alert. The second is an older woman, wearing shoes that restrict her ability to move quickly, driving an expensive vehicle, wearing expensive jewelry and not paying much attention to what goes on around her. When I declare that the first person is a less attractive victim than the second, I'm not impugning the second nor commending the first person. I'm not saying that the second person deserves to be victimized or that her appearance and behavior is contributing to crime nor am I saying that the first person is crime-proof. I'm merely commenting on the fact that there's little point in robbing someone who doesn't appear to have anything of value and who looks like they might be able to fight back or get away while it's easier to rob someone who doesn't appear to be able to run or fight and it's more desirable to rob those who appear to have items of value on their person.

Blaming the victim is pointless and wrong-headed. Criminals are responsible for crime.

Pretending that all victims are selected randomly and can't do anything to prevent being victimized is just as pointless and just as wrong-headed. Just because we aren't responsible for criminals' actions when they victimize us doesn't mean that there was nothing that we could have done to make our victimization less likely.

[Balog]

JohnKSa has stated my position beautifully. I'll only add that in my personal moral outlook resistance to evil is mandatory. That obligation implies the idea of being prepared to do so. It's rather like having life insurance. If I get hit by a bus or discover I have virulent and incurable cancer tomorrow, that would not be my fault. But if my wife is left a single mother unable to care for our child because I did not prepare for the possibility I would die, that is my fault.

[TRX]

You know, after watching that video a couple of times, I don't think there was any reasonable action the woman could have taken.

I don't know about Texas, but here in Arkansas you can't spray or shoot someone just because they come up to you.

If the guy had a grocery bag and some jingling car keys, that basic tactic would take almost anyone, no matter how "alert" they are. You can only maintain so much of a defensive zone when strangers can walk around wherever they want, and a parking lot is one of those places.

[jontz]

You can't spray or shoot someone for walking up to you in Indiana either. But if you are aware of your surroundings, there are things you can do. If she had been more aware of her surroundings, she could have been facing this guy as he approached. She could have told him firmly that she didn't need his help while backing away to create space. If he didn't comply, she could have pulled her piece if she had one. All of these moves depend on one critical piece - situational awareness.

You are correct in saying that in this video there was nothing she could have done because she wasn't aware of what was going on around her. If it were me, I would be on high alert if a car cruised through a parking lot, let someone out, took off, and then the person who got out of the car didn't go directly into the store. I'm not saying she's at fault, she isn't...but you have to be aware of your surroundings so you can act.

[Cremon]

I agree with what was said here - she might not have realized it, but she did make herself a target with all that bling. That's a hard lesson, but I am glad she lived through it.

Two days ago we had this well dressed person soliciting in our neighborhood, going door to door and trying to sell magazines. My wife's friend was over and that woman's husband called, telling us the guy had just left their house and no actual magazine list (which made her husband very suspicious and had him send the guy on his way with nothing). When questioned about magazine availability, the guy ended his pitch by saying "Why not just make a donation - that's what everyone else seems to be doing". Well when he got to my house, I stepped out while he was coming up the sidewalk with my gun visible in my holster and I looked right at him, very steel eyed and said with my voice two octaves lower (I have a Darth Vader bass voice) "Sir, this neighborhood has a strict no soliciting policy. You're going to have to leave." And I pointed to the exit of the street firmly. "You have to go sir - there's NO soliciting here!" And he backed down slowly and nervously. He then turned around and left without going near any of the houses past mine on the street.

Sometimes (but certainly not always) having the right frame of mind and attitute projects itself to your adversaries and communicates volumes to them about what you are prepared to do with body language. Most of the time, that can be enough to avoid actual conflict.