10mm compared to .45 Auto

[juliet charley]

First off, the statement was made in context of LE/defence not hunting--LE has already spoken very eloquently when it comes to the 10mm. BTW, in states that have "approved" lists for hunting calibres, the 10mm doesn't necessarily make the list.

Secondly, while the 10mm is controllable even with the "original strength" loading, the 9x19 (in particular) and .45 ACP are far more controllable. In other words, you can get off the second and subsequent shot with greater speed/accuracy with a 9x19 or .45 ACP--a trait that's not particularly important in hunting (if you are a responsible hunter).

The bottom line is the current generation service calibres do all the things you need done when with it comes to LE/defence (accuracy, controllability, reliabilty, good penetration and expansion) as well as the 10mm (and in some cases better).

Mike, the Federal 10mm Hydra-Shok is basicall a "FBI Lite" load (MV of 1030 fps--only 40 fps faster than their .40 S&W load). I was referring primarily to ammo loaded by a couple or three speciality shops to "orginal strength" velocities (1300 fps or so for 180-grain bullets) using .40 S&W bullets that are designed for optimum performance at less than 1000 fps. FWIW, I prefer the old Federal 190-grain load (XM1003A) over the Hydra-Shok (or anything out of the various "boutique shops") for carry.

[Dagny]

Double the capacity of a .45 auto
AND
up to double the terminal impact!

'Nuff said.

BTW

Those "boutique" loads are the FBI lite loads.

[juliet charley]

Double the capacity--not unless your math is very, very bad (a common failing among many "true believers").

G21 (.45 ACP) 13 rounds
G20 (10mm) 15 rounds (NOT 26 rounds)

G30 (.45 ACP) 10 rounds
G29 (10mm) 10 rounds (NOT 20 rounds)

You are even further off "terminal impact."

Actually I used the term "boutique" to describe a couple of small speciality shops that load .40 S&W bullets 30% over their design velocities. Federal loaded the "FBI lite" ammuntion--Federal hardly qualifies as small speciality shop. FWIW, "boutique" means "a small company that offers highly specialized services" (for those among you who are language challenged as well as math challenged).

Hey, the 10mm round is a good round. I like it and shoot a whole lot of it. I still have (and shoot) two 10mm handguns (a 1076 and a G29). I really like the round-- it is the hype than tends to surround it (both positive AND negative) that I can do without. I don't particularly care for some of the ammo produced by the various "boutique shops" for the reasons stated--it is pushing bullets beyond their design limits and is largely unproven/untested.

[Ultima-Ratio]

Thanks for your contributions here and a question if ya please?
Which bullets are you refering to when you say "pushing beyond their design"?
IME both the Gold Dots and XTPs appear to work as designed in a wide velocity range. As I recall David DeFabio commented on the strength of the thin jacketed Gold Dots not failing/breaking up at Double Tap velocities in the 10mm. There was also some mention of Davids gelatin test box breaking (!?) while testing DT ammo!
Thanks again!

[juliet charley]

David DiFabio has not tested Double Tap's 10mm Gold Dot loads, but he has said pushing Gold Dots faster does not necessarily make them perform better but can actually cause their performance to deteriorate (reducing both the temporary and permanent cavities). The 180-grain Gold Dot are engineered for optimum performance at around 1000 fps range not 1300 fps.

[hatchet]

I am a .45acp guy, but I like the 10mm alot. I had a 1006 in the late 1980's
when the 10mm loads were full power. Did not like the gun, too narrow grip
from what I was/am used too in my Government models. I am looking to get
another 10mm now, either a Kimber or Dan Wesson. I wish Sig would produce
one based off a 220, with a 10 round mag and 5" barrel.

[juliet charley]

Don't think it will ever happen, but I'd like to see Ruger P90 in 10mm. According to some of the late 80s sources, it was originally intended to be a 10mm, but when the 10mm LE market went tango uniform, they introduced it as a .45 ACP.

[Dagny]

I am a .45acp guy, but I like the 10mm alot. I had a 1006 in the late 1980's when the 10mm loads were full power. Did not like the gun, too narrow grip from what I was/am used too in my Government models. I am looking to get another 10mm now, either a Kimber or Dan Wesson. I wish Sig would produce one based off a 220, with a 10 round mag and 5" barrel.

I wish Sig would produce a 10mm with the magazine capacity of the Glock 20 which is double that of the 1911 .45's (that's what I was comparing to when I earlier wrote that the 10mm has double the capacity)

What I would really like is an MP5/10 -- that's the 10mm version of the MP5. Now that's hi-cap! But it is a little hard to carry concealed.

[Mike Irwin]

"Secondly, while the 10mm is controllable even with the "original strength" loading, the 9x19 (in particular) and .45 ACP are far more controllable. In other words, you can get off the second and subsequent shot with greater speed/accuracy with a 9x19 or .45 ACP--a trait that's not particularly important in hunting (if you are a responsible hunter)."


Using that logic, then, the .32, even in the hopped up loadings that you can get, is more controllable than 9mm or .45, and the .22 is more controlable still.

But, is your statement REALLY true? Is a Keltec or Kahr micro 9mm really more controllable than a full-sized, full-weight Witness or Colt? I kind of doubt it. As with all things, conditions apply.

"Mike, the Federal 10mm Hydra-Shok is basicall a "FBI Lite" load (MV of 1030 fps--only 40 fps faster than their .40 S&W load). I was referring primarily to ammo loaded by a couple or three speciality shops to "orginal strength" velocities (1300 fps or so for 180-grain bullets) using .40 S&W bullets that are designed for optimum performance at less than 1000 fps. FWIW, I prefer the old Federal 190-grain load (XM1003A) over the Hydra-Shok (or anything out of the various "boutique shops") for carry."

An another critical point your're missing... With today's new generation of bullets, which are often as not designed to perform in a narrow range of velocities, raw speed no longer is as important as it once was to cartridge performance.

[Desert Dog]

I like 10mm as well. My friend has a S&W 610 that is just a hoot.

BUT,
I am a .45 Super shooter. It is what .45 ACP should be... It will go toe-to-toe with 10mm at any comparable loading, IMHO.

As I said, 10mm is fun, but it is just .051" too small for my taste...

To each his own.

[juliet charley]

Using that logic, then, the .32, even in the hopped up loadings that you can get, is more controllable than 9mm or .45, and the .22 is more controlable still.

Actually, Mike I expected (evidently mistakenly) the readers to apply a modicum of common sense. While the .32 or .22 can be used for defence, they are certainly not service calibres (which was the gist of the post). Frankly, once you hit the service calibres, there's just not a whole lot of difference in performance of any of them. The sub-calibres are a different matter.

But, is your statement REALLY true? Is a Keltec or Kahr micro 9mm really more controllable than a full-sized, full-weight Witness or Colt? I kind of doubt it. As with all things, conditions apply.

Again, Mike, I would expect most people (certainly most experienced, knowledgable people) to understand that weapon size does impact controllability and have enough common sense to realize we weren't comparing Glock 20s or Delta Elites to Ketecs or Kahrs which are whole different class or weapon. Basically, I had hoped the knowledge level was such that every nuance would not have to be clarified, and every point explained in the most basic terms. Evidently, I was mistaken.

An another critical point your're missing... With today's new generation of bullets, which are often as not designed to perform in a narrow range of velocities, raw speed no longer is as important as it once was to cartridge performance.

No, Mike, it's not a point I'm missing. The points I was making are (1) the boutique loads have not been been tested by any major independent professional tester/lab; (2) the boutique loads have absolutely no performance record in LE/defence use. And yes, Mike, while today's new generation bullets offer wider velocity window than older designs, they still have a window where they will perform optimally. Exceeding that window in either direction (faster or slower) will result in less than optimum performance. A point you might want to consider, Mike, is that there is approximately 150 fps difference between the Speer 124-grain +P Gold Dot load and the Speer 125-grain 357 SIG load and Speer has designed/engineered two different bullets for them in order to optimize the performance of each. The boutique loads are pushing Speer's 180-grain .40 S&W bullet approximately 300 fps than Speer does--that is a big difference.

BTW, I'm not saying the boutique loads are bad, or that they won't work. I am saying they are untested and unproven, and that they may very well be exceeding the optimum performance window of the .40 S&W bullet they use. There are numerous loads available (for both the .45 ACP and 10mm) that we know work and work well.

[S.E.R.T.SGT]

Desert Dog:

As I am not familiar with the .45 Super, how does it compare to .45 ACP & 10MM as it relates to this post? (Keeping in mind I am using this for Self Defense and "potential" law enforcement purposes.) Can you get this caliber in semi-autos, is it revolver only? Don't know anything about it...Thanks.

[Mike Irwin]

"Frankly, once you hit the service calibres"

There's the next rub now...

Just what defines a "service" caliber? Both the .32 ACP and even the .25 ACP have done their duty as "service" calibers, even front line issue.

"Basically, I had hoped the knowledge level was such that every nuance would not have to be clarified"

Gee, you're right, I'm just a slapass know nothing, just like everyone else on this board.

Oh, wait, there ARE people who frequent this board who don't know this stuff, who aren't 35th level members of the secret decoder ring knocker society. Ah, who the hell cares about them anyway when speaking in wide generalities will suffice, right? knock knock nudge nudge fluttery handshake joe sent me the secret password is Ishtar...

[juliet charley]

Mike, the current autoloading service calibres, as defined by NIJ Standard-0112.03, are 9x19, 357 SIG, .40 S&W and .45 ACP.

No, Mike, I know you're not a "I'm just a slapass know nothing," but you are playing the part well (and you definitely seem to have a burr under your saddle for some reason). Would it make it you happy if every time the issue of controllability came up everyone, without fail, added the caveat "given similar sized weapons?" That way, if the discussion is about the .454 versus the .480 in the Super Redhawk, those without a "secret decoder ring" will know we're not talking about Davis Derringers.

[Iron bottom]

Well, JC, the 10mm was here first, so the 10mm does not shoot .40 S&W bullets. The .40 S&W shoots 10mm bullets so the .40 S&W may well be lacking. I think the 10mm bullets worked well, maybe a little to well.

Now I'd like to ask you a question, please Sir. If and WHEN 10mm rounds are tested and proven to your satisfaction, and If you possess sufficient upper body and hand strength to control a 10mm pistol, will you change your view of the 10mm?

[juliet charley]

Iron bottom, your post is one of those where it is hard to know where to begin.

First, the 10mm Norma does indeed pre-date the .40 S&W, but that has absolutely nothing with the discussion. The bullets in question are designed for optimum performance for the .40 S&W, hence, they the .40 S&W bullets (even though they can be and are used for 10mm loads). The problem is not that they are being used for 10mm loads, but are the boutique loads utilizing bullets loaded to other than optimum performance levels? BTW, in case you really don't know (which is reasonable to assume based on your post) they both shoot 10mm bullets, and they both shoot .40 calibre bullets--it just depends on whether you're feeling metric or not

I own and shoot two 10mm handguns (a 1076 and G29). I like the the 10mm and shoot it (admittedly, I'm not too fond of the price). I even occassionally hunt with it. You might try reading the thread before you jump in and cast serious doubts about your intellectual ability and reading comprehension skills. That does not change the fact that many of the boutique rounds are built around bullets designed for optimum performance at common .40 S&W velocity levels, and that these boutique rounds may be pushed at the upper end (or beyond) of their optimum performance levels. It does not change the fact that faster is not always better. Nor does it change the fact that these boutique loads are (and very likely will remain) untested and unproven.

[Iron bottom]

Ok, JC, I'm as stupid and uninformed as everyone else that dares to question your giant intellect. If this discussion was about eating cat do sandwiches, I'm sure you would know more about it than anyone else. And those stupid bullet manufactures don't have a clue about making a 10mm bullet or testing them.

[juliet charley]

I think you have demonstrated manifested your intellect, Iron bottom! Of course, that reflects in the tenor of my replies to you.

Actually, both Federal and Winchester do manufacture good 10mm ammunition (and bullets)--and both know how to design and test bullets. In fact, the old (unfortunately discontinued) Federal 190-grain JHP is one of my favourite 10mm loads. It is a very well proven and tested round (as is the Winchester Silvertip) Again, the point is not the 10mm (which I like and shoot), but the untested/unproven boutique loads pushing bullets designed for the .40 S&W to velocities at or beyond their optimum performance windows.

[hatchet]

I think I just solved the problem. Cast your own bullets, using 20-1, in a Keith
style in 220 grains and push it to 1400 fps. Then you will have slight expansion and will pass through a car door and through the perp leaving
massive tissue damage and two holes to bleed out of.

[S.E.R.T.SGT]

Just got the call from the dealer, he received the FFL from my dealer today, package is paid, and should be arriving down to my dealer within 3-5 business days. The anticipation is killing me here...hehe.

[RWK]

JC,

You raise an interesting issues re the velocity design limits of .40 S&W projectiles used in 10mm loads. As a many-decades-experienced engineer (aero and mechanical), I can agree – or at least not disagree – with your thesis in theory, but concurring with the actual fact would require both: (1) specific design and metallurgical data and (2) testing.

Do you have the same concerns re 9x19 bullets (.355) that are “uploaded” into .357 Sig ammunition and, if not why?

[Redondo]

www.ammoman.com normally carries the Federal 190 grain JHP for between $14.50 and $14.95 per box(no shipping costs), if you buy in bulk. It's not the real hot stuff, but it is pretty decent practice ammo. I do not believe it has been discontinued as a previous poster stated. At least www.ammoman.com states "More coming soon"!

[juliet charley]

RWK -

but concurring with the actual fact would require both: (1) specific design and metallurgical data and (2) testing.

That's been my point all along. Without testing and some actual data, we have absolutely no idea how those loads will perform. People just see they go faster and assume they're "better" which is not necessarily true (and very likely untrue). Faster is not always better (and can be much worse)--we know Gold Dot performance deteriorates when pushed too fast.

Do you have the same concerns re 9x19 bullets (.355) that are “uploaded” into .357 Sig ammunition and, if not why?

Actually, most manufacturers design/engineer bullets specifically for the 357 SIG. They do not use bullets designed for the 9x19 (which tends to support my concerns about pushing bullets designed for the .40 S&W too fast). I do have the similar concerns that some of speciality shops push their 9x19 loads too fast the bullets. The assumption that many people have that faster is better is just plain wrong.

[MCNETT]

What JC, Juliet Charlie, jimco is saying is just plain wrong. He can have his opinion about his perceived effectiveness of a cartridge or a company. The problems are:
He guesses as what velocity envelopes are for a particular bullet. He guesses at what the procedures are for ballistic gelatin testing. He guesses at what companies like DoubleTap do and don't do. He makes statements that are demeaning to others because they are opposed to his viewpoint. He chimes in on just about every thread about the 10mm's effectiveness on many of the major forums. He tirelessly hangs on the cross for his .357Magnum. He tirelessly quotes ballistic figures from Buffalo Bore for his beloved .357Magnum, then challenges Buffalo Bore's validity by calling companies that are its size "boutiques".
Here is the customer service number for Speer: 1-800-627-3640. Call it up and ask for technical assistance. They will tell you the recommended velocity envelopes for a specific bullet. You will find that the recommended impact velocity for the 10mm bullets are:
180gr - 900-1300fps
165gr - 1000-1400fps
155gr - 1100-1500fps

This is the whole reason that that spent lots of $$$$$ developing the SB (short barrel) Gold Dots. The current bullets are geared toward a faster bullet. Through my personal experience testing hundreds of blocks of properly calibrated 10% ordinance gelatin, these numbers are spot on.
At DoubleTap we pride ourselves on our perfect record of customer service and QC that is among the best in the business. These are both made possible by brand new equipment with state of the art QC and consistency and real people that answer the telephone and listen to your needs. Sometimes being bigger and older is not better. I am quite certain that you have never purchased from DoubleTap and would appreciate it if you would withhold your comments until you have had a chance to try some out for yourself. If you never do, that is fine, but please don't impose yourself on the rest of us as an expert on DoubleTap Ammunition
-Mike McNett
President
DoubleTap Ammunition

[juliet charley]

Mike McNett
President
DoubleTap Ammunition

AND, of course, you DON'T have a vested (commercial) interest in the subject?

The facts are:

1. The boutique loads are at the extreme upper end (or beyond the end) of the optimum performance window (supported by the figures you quoted, BTW).

2. The boutique loads largely have not been tested by the major independent and/or government, professional testers/labs.

3. The boutique loads are largely (totally?) unproven in actual LE use.

4. Developing loads does not automatically qualify someone to be a ballistic tester--at least one professional ballistic tester has expressed reservations about some of the testing procedures/results.

5. Faster is not always better.

I have never said the boutique ammo was bad. It may be the best thing since sliced bread, but the fact remains, we just don't know one way or the other. The bottom line is there are good tested and proven 10mm loads available. While the boutique offerings may (or equally well, may not) be good, they are certainly NOT proven and tested. THAT is what I said on the subject.

If the boutiques are really interested in putting at least some of these questions to rest, they could contract with one of the professional, independent ballistic testers/lab (e.g., Ammo Lab, Gary Roberts, etc.) to run the full FBI series of tests on their ammunition (with the understanding that the results will be released into the public domain). That would certainly take the fact the boutique loads are largely untested by professional independent testers/labs off the table. Unfortunately, they probably will not be able to address the issue that their loads remain largely unproven in LE use since LE has for the most part rejected the 10mm (FWIW, it's not even classified as a LE calibre).

Your last paragraph sounds a lot like spamming/advertising (though it did deteriorate into personal--and inaccurate--remarks toward end). The first two paragraphs seem to be mostly of a personal (and inaccurate) nature--I would hope when I officially represent the position of my company/organization, I would maintain a higher professional standard than that. BTW, as a very infrequent user, you might want to check the TFL rules.