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Old August 11, 2010, 07:02 PM   #1
.284
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The "Feel"

I don't know if this is basic stuff or it can be overlooked. I have had the benefit of learning to reload from my good friend who is also a die maker by trade. He's a darn good one too, by the way. Well, one the most important parts of reloading to my friend is repeatability and that takes feel. It takes technique too but, once you have technique you need to do the technique the exact same way every time. Using the same hand pressure when you chamfer, clean primer pockets, and deburr the flash hole are examples of using the proper feel. Using a RCBS single stage press we can change the seating depth of the bullet by .002-.003 just by changing the stroke pressure. That's not good, don't want to do that. When we use a hand priming tool, we mark cases that have a different "feel" when seating the primer in that particular case. That way when we shoot we can compare data against the unmarked majority. As we reload we will spot check finished cartridges to check for consistency. There are proper techniques to using calipers. One is using a consistent thumb pressure when closing the jaws. Again, this is an example of feel. Maybe we are just way too anal. I guess I have just bought in to the belief that we can eliminate as many variables as possible. What do you think?
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Old August 11, 2010, 07:13 PM   #2
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I'm not sure I agree completely with the concept.

I agree with repeatability, but I believe it should be achieved by mechanical stops and not by "feel" whenever possible.

Until I got some kind of idea how resizing worked, I got variable results due to differences in lubrication. Once I got the lubrication uniform, the resizing became uniform. However, I still run the ram all the way until it stops, rather than trying to estimate how much pressure I'm exerting.

I use a bullet comparator to set up my seating die and get consistent seating depths to the ogive, without worrying about stroke pressure variations.

I use a Sinclair pocket cutting tool with a flat shoulder, rather than a hand held tool. The flat shoulder limits the depth of cut.

My suggestion is, if you have anything in your reloading process that is dependent on feel, you should investigate alternatives if you want to increase uniformity.

Humans aren't good at repeating things without the aid of machines.
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Old August 11, 2010, 10:37 PM   #3
William T. Watts
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I agree with 284, I have found for each step in the loading process I know when there is something different because I either feel or sense a difference. I'm a retired mechanic and I've learned to trust that part of me when I know something isn't quite right, if I let it slip it usually comes back to bite me. I don't think all people have this ability and it may be a talent we are born with. my .02!! William
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Old August 11, 2010, 11:12 PM   #4
dmazur
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I agree completely that "feel" is a valuable skill to detect when something is wrong with the reloading process.

For example, if it takes a certain amount of force for resizing, it shouldn't require more all of a sudden.

I'm pretty sure I remember reading of someone who was crimping bullets based on "feel", rather than on trimming cases to a uniform length and running the case up to the limit of travel to a die set for the correct amount of crimp.

Needless to say, he was having trouble getting consistent crimps.
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Old August 11, 2010, 11:37 PM   #5
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I agree that feel is necessary for most steps in the reloading process, at least for me. Mechanical stops are critical but feeling the press operation and primer seating operations is a quality-safety technique for my reloading. Watch out for the tool and die makers! I worked in manufacturing for 37 years and they tend to be perfectionists and over complicate the process. Just joshing!
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Old August 12, 2010, 08:55 AM   #6
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After I read dmazur's first reply I wasn't sure I was explaining my meaning of feel the way I wanted. However, I think you guys get my meaning. Certainly, I would use a mechanical application over a hand process. I have a bullet comparator and run the press until the ram stops as well. But, one cannot deny the human element in reloading. For example, when I install my die body in to the press (again, I don't want this result) I can change the seating depth just by the amount of torque I put on the lock nut. So, I am aware that I must strive to use the same amount of torque each and every time I throw the die in the press. As others have said, If I notice a primer that seats not quite like the others I make a note to identify the particular cases. I guess what I'm saying is that I am aware that certain operations in reloading depend on my consistency.
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Old August 12, 2010, 09:10 AM   #7
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Quote:
Again, this is an example of feel. Maybe we are just way too anal.
No, if you were too anal you would know how many in-lb difference between the ones that feel right and the ones that feel wrong.
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Old August 12, 2010, 10:27 AM   #8
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I know what you mean by "the feel". I think it's important. For a couple revolver calibers, I have mixed cases (all the rest of them I stick with one brand of case that I bought new). I can definitely feel the difference between brands in the effort it takes to size or prime or expand cases. For instance, I have noticed that R-P cases for my .44 mag size and expand with almost no effort at all compared to WW cases. The brass seems thinner once I looked at it. If I notice a difference in case life or other performance then I definitely avoid that brand later. And with hand priming, you can instantly feel something different if a primer is started sideways or upside down and correct it immediately. These are some of the reasons that I am reluctant to go to a progressive press. Each stroke of the lever is acting on several cases at once doing different operations, so it would be harder (I'm guessing) to pinpoint one particular case that is "different" or having a problem.
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Old August 12, 2010, 10:18 PM   #9
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My feelings are half way between both sides of the issue. I agree with dmazur, that I like the mechanical process to be consistant. BUT, I will give a couple of examples of the other side.

I was loading 9mm and happily going along on my turret press and all of a sudden one case went into the resizer way too easily with almost no resistance. That little bulb in my head said "stop what is this", well it was a .380 case that snuck into my stash of 9mm cases. If it wasn't for the feel I would have loaded a .380 case with a almost max charge for 9mm.

On another occasion I was preping and resizing 270 cases and all of a sudden it was like twice the amount of force was needed, well that was a funny looking 270 case when I took it out. I'd be darn if the head stamp didn't say 30-06 springfield on it.

I also use a hand primer for rifle cases, It is easy to feel if the primer pocket has been streached and should be tossed. But that's by feel.

Consistant mechanical process is needed in reloading, but let's not forget the human instincts in the process it is our safety valve.

Thanks
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Old August 12, 2010, 10:56 PM   #10
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I'm not sure this means anything or is even related but:
I've deprimed and resized so many .45ACP cases on my old single stage Rock Chucker, I can tell the headstamp by the required pressure on the handle. CCI, R-P, Fed, Aguilla, Win, and Speer all feel different. I think the meaning of this is I need a progressive press.
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Old August 13, 2010, 06:39 AM   #11
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Feel is helpful for those who have it. For the mechanically inept, having mechanical stops is better. It seems a lot of reloaders don't have much "feel" so they need something with fixed limits that can be done without very much conscious thought.
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Old August 13, 2010, 10:25 AM   #12
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Quote:
Humans aren't good at repeating things without the aid of machines.
I have to disagree with this. The human body is capable of repeatability and precision greater than any machine could do. The feel of press stroke gets burned into muscle memory and slight variations are felt by the user. We have no guage to prove range but it's there. When I trimmed several thousand 223 cases in the course of a week, after awhile I did not need the case length guage. I could tell by eye if the case was long or within spec.

Like I said in another thread...I can (usually) tell by feel when my 1911 slide locks back empty. This is all done by feel. The more you pay attention the more you can do it. Those who say they can not do it do not try and fall out of the practice and so are correct, they can not do it. They have become codependant on machines.

How do you think they built the pyramids with no CNC equipment? People regularly discern differences in temp down to 1 or 2 degrees and changes in barometer readings and all sorts of things like that. The more technologically advanced we become, the further away we get from being able to do these things. (One poster can tell headstamp by feel? I'm going to try this! I totally believe him).

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Old August 13, 2010, 12:37 PM   #13
dmazur
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Quote:
The human body is capable of repeatability and precision greater than any machine could do.
I'm not sure there are two "sides" to this argument. I believe the OP was trying to convey the need for "feel" in reloading, and I do agree that if something doesn't feel right (muscle memory, whatever you want to call it), it is time to check and see what went wrong.

However, I'm not sure the machinists in our shop are going to check diameters by eye, or skip using the lead screw for threading because they can do that better "by hand".

And even the Egyptians had measuring tools. They didn't have laser levels, but they understood the basic principles of layout. Stones were cut to exact measurements so they would fit once placed.

The whole problem of QC in manufacturing is based on production consistent with an acceptable level of quality. Acceptable varies, depending on the end use. Statistical sampling is used quite often, and the result is a few "bad parts". Somewhere later in assembly, the bad parts are usually caught.

Back to guns as an example, there were finely fitted guns available long before the military desire for interchangeable parts entered the picture. I will agree that these built by people working at the highest level of their craft. But the parts they were making were hand fit as necessary for the final work. There was no such thing as repeatability and precision, not until interchangeable parts. Which were done with machines.
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