Lube , No lube, test results

Remington kid · February 17, 2006, 07:50 PM

After shooting well over 200 rounds from my 1851 Navy without any lube over ball or lubed wads or lube pills of any kind there was no chain fires at all.
This test was with a .380 ball and 22g of Pyrodex "P" .
The accuracy was no different than when I used lube over the ball or wads and lube. I cleaned the barrel and cylinder chambers after each cylinder was shot and never found leading to be any worse. From a bench rest this 51 is about the tightest shooter I have. Many times it has shot several balls in the same hole(excluding my flers) or very close at 20 yards with a bench rest.
I do still lube the gun itself as usal and lube it well on the arbor and the slot where the hand works up and down on the cylinder stars.
I know that some people feel it's asking for trouble not to use the lube in the cylinder one way or another but I can't agree with that any longer. It's back to basics as Colt had planed from the start and I now think that the Colt people knew what they were talking about. Mike

mec · February 17, 2006, 08:48 PM

Camel Tooth Epistemology:

When you want to know how many teeth a camel has, nothing beats opening up its mouth and counting them. I forget the source of that parable, but it's supposed to illustrate the difference between relying on authoritave opinion or argument on metaphysical precepts from scientific method.

Remington kid · February 17, 2006, 09:58 PM

Wow Mec! All that fancy talk of your's with all the big words and I still got it!

Maybe I'm getting a little smarter in my old age.

Are you sticking with the Pyrodex "P" for most of your shooting? I know you liked the Swiss too and from what I read in your book it worked really well for you. I'm thinking of trying some just to bring up the ballistics a little in my .36.
Thanks for all your help and info in the past, Mike

fastforty · February 18, 2006, 12:30 AM

I've always found it hard to believe that chain firing originates at the front of the cylinder (actually, virtually impossible). It takes quite a bit of force to cram those balls down onto the powder, even after the ring of lead is cut off as it enters the chamber. I've recovered lots of fired balls & they all exhibit at least a 1/8" flat where it was "sized" during initial insertion. Nope, chain fires have GOT to originate at the nipple end of the cylinder. Most likely, a cap or few falls off or is blasted off of the nipples allowing mass detonation to occur.

That said, I *always* slather the lube on after the chambers are loaded

Remington kid · February 18, 2006, 08:53 AM

fastforty, If you ask 10 people what they think causes a chain fire you wont find 10 people that agree on how it occurs.
Mec is the one who got me started on this test by reading his book and chatting with him a bit on this controversial subject. There really isn't enough info from the history files to prove when the grease over the ball started or what caused the first chain fires. It is said that what is believed to have started it was solders loading ill fitting conicals back wards and just undersized bullets or balls. Along the way someone came up with the idea of grease over the projectile to keep the flame out of the chamber and the gun from blowing up. Then along came wads, greased wads and now people are on the lube pill kick.
With todays proper method of making really round balls and conicals that fit very tight or even shave off a ring of lead while loading in the cylinder it would be just about impossible for a spark or flame to get to the powder.
We have come a long way in reducing chain fires by the using slightly over sized balls/bullets. Instead of using a .375 ball in my .36 Colt I use a .380 and in my Rem .44 I use a .454 instead of a .451 .
The one place that "I" feel we are still lacking in for protection against chain firers in the some peoples habit of loading these revolvers with a cap that's to large for the nipple. Some people seem to have picked up the idea that if the cap isn't so large that you have to pinch it to get to stay on the nipple you have the wrong size cap. To me that is what causes more chain fires today than any other one factor. Even at that, chain fires are far and few today from our modern C&B Revolvers and if it does happen it's likely by shooter error rather than fire or spark in the chamber.
All of this by no means makes the use of grease over the ball or wads a bad thing. It's just up to the individual and the shooting situation. If I was shooting in a cowboy match or contest where I was going to shoot many rounds before cleaning the revolver then i would use all the grease I can get to help keep the fouling down and keeping it soft, When shooting around the range where or house where you can clean it after every few cylinders have been fired or for carrying in hot days ....no grease will be used by me.
Back to Colt basics is great!

Old Dragoon · February 18, 2006, 11:35 AM

I think the grease over the ball came about for safety reasons when lots of folks are standing on the same fireing line. A "just in case" scenario.

**4V50 Gary** · February 18, 2006, 11:47 AM

We've a member at The Muzzle Loading Forum who held a torch across the cylinder. No chain fire or even a single ignition. Elmer Keith believed it was loose fitting percussion caps that moved during discharge that caused the other cylinders to go. I'm convinced that with a well fitted ball that leaves a perfectly shave ring, no spark from the discharge will set off the other cylinders. Still, I'll use a filler because rancid farina is free.

Remington kid · February 18, 2006, 01:33 PM

"Still, I'll use a filler because rancid farina is free"
4V50 Gary, Hard to beat "free" no matter what it is now a day's

I have heard about the torch over the ball before with no ill effects. It seems to me that a lost cap would make more sense as a cause of chain fires as long as the ball is tight as you stated above. Mike

mec · February 18, 2006, 02:02 PM

Pyrodex P is the single substitute I've found that is predictable across a number of variables. Good loads can be had with the others but not as consistently with all loads.. I like Goex and Swiss and find it generally a bit more consistent in extreme spread than Pyrodex P- It's just that Pyrodex is a lot easier to get around here and It groups as well as the real thing.

I've also used pyrodex RS in the Dragoons and .44 Colt and REmingto types. The extreme spread are quite good and the velocities come out pretty close to what I get with Goex 3f

Swiss and Pyrodex seem to provide the highest velocities with low extreme spreads. Sometimes Swiss 3f winds the velocity race and other times, its Pyrodex P. I believe fouling builds up faster with black powder (know it does with rifles) but I tend to at least run a patch with spit or solven on it through teh barrel after every cylinder full so, I don't have a clear picture about what happens with a lot of shooting. I do know that either of these will turn the bore black and render the rifling obscure in short order and have seen the same with wonder wads under the balls.

I've also seen something on line about static electricity. Some guy was arcing sparks into a small pile of black powder and not getting any ignition from it. Another thing that I wouldn't endorse without trying it, A guy was setting off charges in the cylinder only- barrel removed and the balls came out with very little force. It would seem to make the old practice of carrying around capped and loaded cylinders less dangerous than generally thought though I would be reluctant to trust that without a lot of data.

Remington kid · February 18, 2006, 06:43 PM

Thanks for the info Mec. If my suppler starts carrying the swiss as he said he will I'll have to give it a try. I know that Goex 3f is really great for my .44 Remington and my 32 land 45 long pole's. The ballistics are not as great but it sure is a consistent powder.
The Pyrodex "P" does give more speed but I do notice a little or slight inconsistency in my my 51 Navy. I don't have a chrono so there is no proof of this but it seems that every now and then one cylinder will seem to be louder and give a little more kick than another even though I'm very careful about cleaning, drying and loading each chamber exactly the same.
Thanks again for the info and your expertise, Mike

sundance44s · February 19, 2006, 09:58 AM

Your right all the substitutes like pyrodex , app always do the ocassional puney shot ..and i`m useing a loading press makeing sure i load all holes with the same measured charge and same pressure on the loading rod . i`ve never used tripple 7 in my pistols but i`ve tried it in my rifles it seems to be more consistent ... real black is almost impossible to find here , dixiegun works being the closest place for me to get it and thats 100 miles north of me .. so i don`t make that trip very often . I load my 45 colt shells for my lever rifle with app 2f and the shots go off a lot more consistent , i can`t remember the last time i had a puney one . will we ever get through testing powders .

Remington kid · February 19, 2006, 10:12 AM

sundance44s, Thanks for your input on the powder subject and what you have observed.
The one thing I can say about the Pyrodex "P" is that it's better than most of the subs from what I have been reading from others. To me it's really close to Goex3F out of my revolvers and the smoke is just about as good and it stinks too!

I also feel that some of the Minor inconsistencies I have felt could have a lot to do with my weather and humidity in this area of the south east. Really cold and damp one day and like middle of spring the next. Time will tell.
I do know from what Mec has said and from the info in his book after all the testing he has done he does favor the Pyrodex "P" and the ballistics are great from most of the pistols and revolvers he has tested and I don't think he missed very many of them. Mike

mec · February 19, 2006, 10:23 AM

pyrodex P is harder to ignite than black. This can make for the occasional hang fire or different report/velocity but it is most likely to happen when the chambers or cones still have a bit of oil or moisture in them. When I'm going to leave one loaded for a while or when I really want my first shots to go off reliably, I degrease the chambers with alcohol and open flame and a lot of wiping and take the nipples out to to the same with them and the accompanying threads. I also sometimes put a bit of power in the chambers when I fire caps to clear them further.

Your navy loads are probably comfortably sub-sonic but for what it's worth, trans-sonic loads often produce different reports even though the velocities are close together. I've seen this over the chronograph with 1100+fps loads. The one that go supersonic are louder than those that don't-even when the velocities are within a few fps of each other.

Remington kid · February 19, 2006, 11:56 AM

Thanks for the info again Mec. You are a wealth of knowledge and I appreciate the time you take to answer the questions I have.
It doesn't seem to bother the accuracy any when I do hear a lighter report from the Colt so it doesn't worry me to much.
I'm really particular when it comes to making sure the cylinders are dry but the alcohol trick would be the way to go.Going to do a lot of cleaning today, it's only 17 right now and was 10 at 5:30 AM.

, Mike

Remington kid · February 19, 2006, 12:02 PM

Mec, Just one more question if your still around....Do you think that 25g of Pyrodex"P" is to much for these revolvers? I did fire a few cylinders with that load with no problems and it never seemed to hurt the accuracy either. At least not out to 25 yards. Mike

mec · February 19, 2006, 01:08 PM

I've used 25 grains of goex so, I know that amount of pyrodex will fit. It might and probably would get some trans-sonic velocities. I don't expect there would be any negatives with it.

Remington kid · February 19, 2006, 01:34 PM

Thanks Mec, Going to do a little cleaning and bore scrubbing today. Later, Mike

February 17, 2006, 07:50 PM	#1
Remington kid Senior Member Join Date: September 15, 2005 Location: South Central West Virginia Posts: 611	Lube , No lube, test results After shooting well over 200 rounds from my 1851 Navy without any lube over ball or lubed wads or lube pills of any kind there was no chain fires at all. This test was with a .380 ball and 22g of Pyrodex "P" . The accuracy was no different than when I used lube over the ball or wads and lube. I cleaned the barrel and cylinder chambers after each cylinder was shot and never found leading to be any worse. From a bench rest this 51 is about the tightest shooter I have. Many times it has shot several balls in the same hole(excluding my flers) or very close at 20 yards with a bench rest. I do still lube the gun itself as usal and lube it well on the arbor and the slot where the hand works up and down on the cylinder stars. I know that some people feel it's asking for trouble not to use the lube in the cylinder one way or another but I can't agree with that any longer. It's back to basics as Colt had planed from the start and I now think that the Colt people knew what they were talking about. Mike

February 18, 2006, 12:30 AM	#4
fastforty Senior Member Join Date: December 28, 1999 Location: In a kornfield in kalifornia Posts: 1,161	I've always found it hard to believe that chain firing originates at the front of the cylinder (actually, virtually impossible). It takes quite a bit of force to cram those balls down onto the powder, even after the ring of lead is cut off as it enters the chamber. I've recovered lots of fired balls & they all exhibit at least a 1/8" flat where it was "sized" during initial insertion. Nope, chain fires have GOT to originate at the nipple end of the cylinder. Most likely, a cap or few falls off or is blasted off of the nipples allowing mass detonation to occur. That said, I always slather the lube on after the chambers are loaded __________________ When Banjos are outlawed, only Outlaws will have Banjos The Bible is my lawbook. I turn the other cheek when applicable, and spend the rest of my days resisting evil at every front, until I have breathed my last breath.

February 18, 2006, 11:47 AM	#7
4V50 Gary Staff Join Date: November 2, 1998 Location: Colorado Posts: 21,841	We've a member at The Muzzle Loading Forum who held a torch across the cylinder. No chain fire or even a single ignition. Elmer Keith believed it was loose fitting percussion caps that moved during discharge that caused the other cylinders to go. I'm convinced that with a well fitted ball that leaves a perfectly shave ring, no spark from the discharge will set off the other cylinders. Still, I'll use a filler because rancid farina is free. __________________ Vigilantibus et non dormientibus jura subveniunt. *Molon Labe!*

February 17, 2006, 08:48 PM	#2
mec Junior member Join Date: December 6, 2001 Posts: 1,536	Camel Tooth Epistemology: When you want to know how many teeth a camel has, nothing beats opening up its mouth and counting them. I forget the source of that parable, but it's supposed to illustrate the difference between relying on authoritave opinion or argument on metaphysical precepts from scientific method.

February 17, 2006, 09:58 PM	#3
Remington kid Senior Member Join Date: September 15, 2005 Location: South Central West Virginia Posts: 611	Wow Mec! All that fancy talk of your's with all the big words and I still got it! Maybe I'm getting a little smarter in my old age. Are you sticking with the Pyrodex "P" for most of your shooting? I know you liked the Swiss too and from what I read in your book it worked really well for you. I'm thinking of trying some just to bring up the ballistics a little in my .36. Thanks for all your help and info in the past, Mike

February 18, 2006, 08:53 AM	#5
Remington kid Senior Member Join Date: September 15, 2005 Location: South Central West Virginia Posts: 611	fastforty, If you ask 10 people what they think causes a chain fire you wont find 10 people that agree on how it occurs. Mec is the one who got me started on this test by reading his book and chatting with him a bit on this controversial subject. There really isn't enough info from the history files to prove when the grease over the ball started or what caused the first chain fires. It is said that what is believed to have started it was solders loading ill fitting conicals back wards and just undersized bullets or balls. Along the way someone came up with the idea of grease over the projectile to keep the flame out of the chamber and the gun from blowing up. Then along came wads, greased wads and now people are on the lube pill kick. With todays proper method of making really round balls and conicals that fit very tight or even shave off a ring of lead while loading in the cylinder it would be just about impossible for a spark or flame to get to the powder. We have come a long way in reducing chain fires by the using slightly over sized balls/bullets. Instead of using a .375 ball in my .36 Colt I use a .380 and in my Rem .44 I use a .454 instead of a .451 . The one place that "I" feel we are still lacking in for protection against chain firers in the some peoples habit of loading these revolvers with a cap that's to large for the nipple. Some people seem to have picked up the idea that if the cap isn't so large that you have to pinch it to get to stay on the nipple you have the wrong size cap. To me that is what causes more chain fires today than any other one factor. Even at that, chain fires are far and few today from our modern C&B Revolvers and if it does happen it's likely by shooter error rather than fire or spark in the chamber. All of this by no means makes the use of grease over the ball or wads a bad thing. It's just up to the individual and the shooting situation. If I was shooting in a cowboy match or contest where I was going to shoot many rounds before cleaning the revolver then i would use all the grease I can get to help keep the fouling down and keeping it soft, When shooting around the range where or house where you can clean it after every few cylinders have been fired or for carrying in hot days ....no grease will be used by me. Back to Colt basics is great!

February 18, 2006, 11:35 AM	#6
Old Dragoon Senior Member Join Date: October 31, 2005 Location: The Republic of Californi Posts: 581	I think the grease over the ball came about for safety reasons when lots of folks are standing on the same fireing line. A "just in case" scenario.

February 18, 2006, 01:33 PM	#8
Remington kid Senior Member Join Date: September 15, 2005 Location: South Central West Virginia Posts: 611	"Still, I'll use a filler because rancid farina is free" 4V50 Gary, Hard to beat "free" no matter what it is now a day's I have heard about the torch over the ball before with no ill effects. It seems to me that a lost cap would make more sense as a cause of chain fires as long as the ball is tight as you stated above. Mike

February 18, 2006, 02:02 PM	#9
mec Junior member Join Date: December 6, 2001 Posts: 1,536	Pyrodex P is the single substitute I've found that is predictable across a number of variables. Good loads can be had with the others but not as consistently with all loads.. I like Goex and Swiss and find it generally a bit more consistent in extreme spread than Pyrodex P- It's just that Pyrodex is a lot easier to get around here and It groups as well as the real thing. I've also used pyrodex RS in the Dragoons and .44 Colt and REmingto types. The extreme spread are quite good and the velocities come out pretty close to what I get with Goex 3f Swiss and Pyrodex seem to provide the highest velocities with low extreme spreads. Sometimes Swiss 3f winds the velocity race and other times, its Pyrodex P. I believe fouling builds up faster with black powder (know it does with rifles) but I tend to at least run a patch with spit or solven on it through teh barrel after every cylinder full so, I don't have a clear picture about what happens with a lot of shooting. I do know that either of these will turn the bore black and render the rifling obscure in short order and have seen the same with wonder wads under the balls. I've also seen something on line about static electricity. Some guy was arcing sparks into a small pile of black powder and not getting any ignition from it. Another thing that I wouldn't endorse without trying it, A guy was setting off charges in the cylinder only- barrel removed and the balls came out with very little force. It would seem to make the old practice of carrying around capped and loaded cylinders less dangerous than generally thought though I would be reluctant to trust that without a lot of data.

February 18, 2006, 06:43 PM	#10
Remington kid Senior Member Join Date: September 15, 2005 Location: South Central West Virginia Posts: 611	Thanks for the info Mec. If my suppler starts carrying the swiss as he said he will I'll have to give it a try. I know that Goex 3f is really great for my .44 Remington and my 32 land 45 long pole's. The ballistics are not as great but it sure is a consistent powder. The Pyrodex "P" does give more speed but I do notice a little or slight inconsistency in my my 51 Navy. I don't have a chrono so there is no proof of this but it seems that every now and then one cylinder will seem to be louder and give a little more kick than another even though I'm very careful about cleaning, drying and loading each chamber exactly the same. Thanks again for the info and your expertise, Mike

February 19, 2006, 09:58 AM	#11
sundance44s Senior Member Join Date: February 6, 2006 Location: Hernando , Ms. Posts: 579	Your right all the substitutes like pyrodex , app always do the ocassional puney shot ..and i`m useing a loading press makeing sure i load all holes with the same measured charge and same pressure on the loading rod . i`ve never used tripple 7 in my pistols but i`ve tried it in my rifles it seems to be more consistent ... real black is almost impossible to find here , dixiegun works being the closest place for me to get it and thats 100 miles north of me .. so i don`t make that trip very often . I load my 45 colt shells for my lever rifle with app 2f and the shots go off a lot more consistent , i can`t remember the last time i had a puney one . will we ever get through testing powders .

February 19, 2006, 10:12 AM	#12
Remington kid Senior Member Join Date: September 15, 2005 Location: South Central West Virginia Posts: 611	sundance44s, Thanks for your input on the powder subject and what you have observed. The one thing I can say about the Pyrodex "P" is that it's better than most of the subs from what I have been reading from others. To me it's really close to Goex3F out of my revolvers and the smoke is just about as good and it stinks too! I also feel that some of the Minor inconsistencies I have felt could have a lot to do with my weather and humidity in this area of the south east. Really cold and damp one day and like middle of spring the next. Time will tell. I do know from what Mec has said and from the info in his book after all the testing he has done he does favor the Pyrodex "P" and the ballistics are great from most of the pistols and revolvers he has tested and I don't think he missed very many of them. Mike

February 19, 2006, 10:23 AM	#13
mec Junior member Join Date: December 6, 2001 Posts: 1,536	pyrodex P is harder to ignite than black. This can make for the occasional hang fire or different report/velocity but it is most likely to happen when the chambers or cones still have a bit of oil or moisture in them. When I'm going to leave one loaded for a while or when I really want my first shots to go off reliably, I degrease the chambers with alcohol and open flame and a lot of wiping and take the nipples out to to the same with them and the accompanying threads. I also sometimes put a bit of power in the chambers when I fire caps to clear them further. Your navy loads are probably comfortably sub-sonic but for what it's worth, trans-sonic loads often produce different reports even though the velocities are close together. I've seen this over the chronograph with 1100+fps loads. The one that go supersonic are louder than those that don't-even when the velocities are within a few fps of each other.

February 19, 2006, 11:56 AM	#14
Remington kid Senior Member Join Date: September 15, 2005 Location: South Central West Virginia Posts: 611	Thanks for the info again Mec. You are a wealth of knowledge and I appreciate the time you take to answer the questions I have. It doesn't seem to bother the accuracy any when I do hear a lighter report from the Colt so it doesn't worry me to much. I'm really particular when it comes to making sure the cylinders are dry but the alcohol trick would be the way to go.Going to do a lot of cleaning today, it's only 17 right now and was 10 at 5:30 AM. , Mike

February 19, 2006, 12:02 PM	#15
Remington kid Senior Member Join Date: September 15, 2005 Location: South Central West Virginia Posts: 611	Mec, Just one more question if your still around....Do you think that 25g of Pyrodex"P" is to much for these revolvers? I did fire a few cylinders with that load with no problems and it never seemed to hurt the accuracy either. At least not out to 25 yards. Mike

February 19, 2006, 01:08 PM	#16
mec Junior member Join Date: December 6, 2001 Posts: 1,536	I've used 25 grains of goex so, I know that amount of pyrodex will fit. It might and probably would get some trans-sonic velocities. I don't expect there would be any negatives with it.

February 19, 2006, 01:34 PM	#17
Remington kid Senior Member Join Date: September 15, 2005 Location: South Central West Virginia Posts: 611	Thanks Mec, Going to do a little cleaning and bore scrubbing today. Later, Mike